Kosher cell phones - when your religion makes you a cretin

[S.A.M.]

So basically, its okay to enforce your beliefs on them, but not vice versa.

 

[Asguard]

how am i enforcing any beliefs on them SAM. How is myself watching porn effecting anyone other than me? Im not forcing them to do it

You know your arguments are starting to sound like Cazzo claiming that alowing gays to marry gives them "special rights"

 

[S.A.M.]

Nope, I said if a community agrees on shared upon values, its valid [for them]. Are there any Haredi campaigning for the right to watch porn? Or have you decided they should have the right?

 

[Asguard]

Ok lets make this REALLY symple
Assult is a crime no matter what the justifcation. There for they are nothing but criminals. I sugest you ask any judge what sentance they would hand down to someone who bashed a person because of the colour of there shirt

 

[S.A.M.]

Is this your opinion? Or again have you decided for them?

The Inuit in times of hunger, used to make small igloos wrap up their babies and leave them to die. This was how they kept alive on meager resources. Was it wrong?

 

[Bells]

You could always move. Or find other people who think like you. Autonomy is socially agreed upon values. You can't walk naked in Australia but in India no one will care if you do.

Ermm no. It is not always possible to move.

But I guess if you can't move for whatever reason, they'll move you instead.

The unidentified, 31-year-old woman had left the ultra-Orthodox fold after getting divorced, according to the indictment filed by the Jerusalem district attorney's office. The indictment said her assailant tried to get her to leave her apartment in a haredi neighborhood in Jerusalem by gagging, beating and threatening to kill her. He was paid $2,000 for the attack, it said.

No I did not miss it. I don't support the violence, but I don't see why any community should not have its own rules and demand compliance for them. All societies do so, anyway. Pluralism of views is not a crime.

You might not support the violence, but a faction in these communities are resorting to violence to maintain the rules and to demand compliance. While the majority may not agree with the violent means of the minority, they do not speak out against it. It is against the law in Israel to firebomb stores and to attack others. Yet these groups are getting away with it, even though it goes against their so called "rules".

Or are you saying that it's their rules and thus, if their rules state that violence can be used to demand compliance, so be it?

Nope, I said if a community agrees on shared upon values, its valid [for them]. Are there any Haredi campaigning for the right to watch porn? Or have you decided they should have the right?

Is it their shared values to beat, kidnap and threaten murder on those who don't comply? Do all share this value?

Many ultra-Orthodox Jews are dismayed by the violence, but the enforcers often enjoy quiet approval from rabbis eager to protect their own reputations as guardians of the faith, community members say. And while some welcome anything that keeps secular culture out of their cloistered world, others feel terrorized, knowing that the mere perception of impropriety could ruin their lives.

"There are eyes and ears all over the place, very similar to what you hear about in countries like Iran," says Israeli-American novelist Naomi Ragen, an observant Jew who has chronicled the troubles that confront some women living in the ultra-Orthodox world.

Seems not.

Aren't those actions illegal under Israeli law? So why should they be exempt from the law?

While those who choose to live in such communities have basically acknowledged that they will abide by the strict laws of their religion, it is not for others to threaten and blackmail them and then possibly commit acts of violence against them if they fail to do so of they are suspected of not doing so.

Suspicion is all that's needed to spark an attack.

Girls have been expelled from school after being seen talking to boys, a punishment that ruins their marriage prospects.

"It could be very innocent; she could be talking to her brother," Ragen said. But once thrown out of school, "no one�NO ONE�will take you in," she added.

There comes a point where the State should stop turning a blind eye and allowing violent gangs free reign because of religious or cultural freedoms. When said threats, blackmail, terror and violence lead to the point where people are fearing for their lives, reputation and businesses, something's gotta give.

 

[S.A.M.]

Sounds like they are developing their own mutawwas. Cool. Its in the desert air I think, the tendency to get regimental in a sea of endless nothing.

I don't agree with their values, but like I said, I don't agree with many countries'/communities' values. But as long as they keep them at home i.e. do not enforce them on me, I have no objection to their having their own society.

 

[CheskiChips]

None of you have ever spent any time in Haredi neighborhoods before, so stop weighing your opinions like they mean something. The chances of being taken out of school is very unlikely.

Also there is no beating or kidnapping or anything that you say happens in Haredi communities...it simply doesn't exist. If you want to see beating and kidnapping in Judaism talk to the bukharians. Those same Haredim could walk 1 mile...1 block...out of their neighborhood and be in the rest of the world, they choose not to for varying different reasons. Haredi go to special schools, these special schools have strict rules...public schools exist. You have the option to go to them, all do.

You guys are making something out of nothing; I am not Haredi, nor do I ever want to be. But they live very very differently and I respect them, but you'll never see me in their neighborhood.

 

[Bells]

None of you have ever spent any time in Haredi neighborhoods before, so stop weighing your opinions like they mean something. The chances of being taken out of school is very unlikely.

Also there is no beating or kidnapping or anything that you say happens in Haredi communities...it simply doesn't exist. If you want to see beating and kidnapping in Judaism talk to the bukharians. Those same Haredim could walk 1 mile...1 block...out of their neighborhood and be in the rest of the world, they choose not to for varying different reasons. Haredi go to special schools, these special schools have strict rules...public schools exist. You have the option to go to them, all do.

You guys are making something out of nothing; I am not Haredi, nor do I ever want to be. But they live very very differently and I respect them, but you'll never see me in their neighborhood.

So you're saying that the reports of violence are false? Made up?

An Orthodox Jewish woman heckles women defying a law that they should not pray out loud. Photograph: Elizabeth Dalziel/AP

Four months ago in the middle of the night, six men dressed in wide-brimmed black hats, black coats, white shirts and black trousers burst into the Jerusalem apartment of a young Jewish woman and taught her a lesson.

Mikhail, who is reluctant to give her full name, had scandalised members of her ultra-orthodox Jewish community by leaving her husband and embracing a secular lifestyle. The men, all members of the theologically conservative Haredi branch of Judaism, tackled her to the ground, slammed her head against the floor and tied a rag around her mouth. One assailant sat on her head as the others kicked her while demanding to know the names of the men she was seeing.

They also threatened to kill her if she did not leave the neighbourhood, which contains many secular as well as religious residents. 'A woman is only OK if she has a family, kids and a husband,' said Mikhail with a sigh.
(Source)

That never happened to her?

Highlighting what may be a growing trend in fanaticism, a 28-year-old resident of Jerusalem's Ramot neighborhood has been arrested for attacking a woman as part of his activity in the "tznius patrol" or modesty police.

Elhanan Buzaglo appeared in Jerusalem District Court on Sunday to answer charges stemming from a June 2008 home invasion in which a young woman was reportedly beaten by a group of ultra-Orthodox young men.

The woman had apparently been seen in the company of married men from the community.

Details of the investigation, which began a month and a half ago, reveal that members of the tznius patrol entered the woman's home and demanded that she move out, telling her that residents of the neighborhood had complained about her.

After the woman refused to do so, Buzaglo and two other men from the patrol allegedly attacked her. In addition, a third member of the patrol is suspected of stealing two cell phones from the woman's apartment during the fray.

Buzaglo was arrested after his fingerprints were identified inside the woman's apartment, while a number of separate complaints from other women have been made about him as well.

Ranging from verbal harassment to an incident in which Buzaglo allegedly attempted to run a girl over with a car, there are at least 10 possible charges facing him.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215331191398&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

So none of this happens in Haredi communities?

Ermm ok.

According to Menachem Friedman, a sociology professor at Bar-Ilan University in Ramat Gan, Tel Aviv, the orthodox are imposing their rules more forcefully than before and the lives of the city's women are becoming more circumscribed, and sometimes more dangerous, as a result. Friedman grew up in an ultra-orthodox family and has been studying the Haredi for 49 years. He said the extreme atmosphere is tangible.

Self-appointed moral guardians, dubbed the 'modesty police' by Israel's modern secular media, roam Jerusalem's ultra-religious neighbourhoods enforcing the voluminous and ever growing list of rabbinical laws such as the recent decree banning the sale of MP4 players. About 100 Haredi women have taken to wearing scarves and veils to cover themselves much like Muslim women.

Yoel Kreus is known locally in the Mea Shearim area of the city as the 'manager of operations'. He describes himself as a 'shmira', a Hebrew word that translates as 'watcher of Israel'. 'I make sure the rabbis' decisions happen ... I help you to be a moral person,' he said.

Much of Kreus's time is spent checking out reports of illicit use of new technologies by members of the Haredi community. 'If we discover someone has a computer at home we throw the children out of school,' he said. Enforcing dictates on women's behaviour is another vital part of his brief.

He runs a library housing copies of the enormous notices pasted on the walls of Mea Shearim and other religious neighbourhoods berating women for wearing wigs instead of scarves and advertising appropriate dress on buses.

Signs warning women not to enter if they are wearing trousers, short sleeves or a skirt above the knees, hang in the neighbourhood. One is affixed outside Kreus's two-room house where he lives with his wife and 11 children. 'Every week there's a complaint about the way women dress,' said Kreus.

Extraordinarily, he admitted to slashing the tyres of women who have driven into the neighbourhood who, he said, were indecently dressed. 'There was a mess with the police,' he said. 'Now I'm trying new creative methods, not using violence. Now I make a small hole in their tyres and the air deflates slowly. I'm not destroying their car.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/21/israelandthepalestinians.middleeast1?

WTF? Is he kidding himself?

False?

Doesn't exist?

Yes. It really sounds like it does not exist.

I think it is 'something' when people are abused, terrorised, threatened and worse, if they do not comply, even if they are not part of the community.

Sounds like they are developing their own mutawwas. Cool. Its in the desert air I think, the tendency to get regimental in a sea of endless nothing.

I don't agree with their values, but like I said, I don't agree with many countries'/communities' values. But as long as they keep them at home i.e. do not enforce them on me, I have no objection to their having their own society.

Then be thankful you don't live there. Otherwise you would be objecting severely.

The use of violence by modesty patrols in ultra-orthodox areas, however, is not a new occurrence.

Also in June, a 14-year-old girl in Betar Illit had acid spilled on her face and body, causing light burns. That incident was attributed to a similar modesty patrol in the town.

In a graver incident that took place in November 2006, Miriam Shear, an orthodox woman from Canada, was allegedly beaten on the floor of an Egged bus when she refused to give up her seat as she rode to the Western Wall.

That episode underscored recent cases of ultra-orthodox men requesting "mehadrin" or kosher bus lines in which the sexes are separated - women in back and men up front. While the bus that Shear rode on was not a mehadrin line, she was reportedly told to move to the back of the bus by an ultra-orthodox man and was spit on, kicked and punched by a group of men when she refused.

The Egged driver in that case has repeatedly denied that violence took place on his bus, but an eyewitness on board who confirmed that an unprovoked "severe beating" took place has substantiated Shear's account.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215331191398&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

 

[S.A.M.]

Then be thankful you don't live there. Otherwise you would be objecting severely.

Maybe, maybe not. We have an equal amount of strange stuff in India, with so many different types of beliefs its not hard to cultivate an indifference to the things people say and do.

 

[Asguard]

sam, quick question. Do you belive in the rule of law?

 

[S.A.M.]

In the spirit of it - most laws in India exist on paper, but unless they match what the people want, they are irrrelevant. Its why we can have a law against homosexuality, while homosexuals get married without discussion.

 

[Asguard]

im not talking about moral "law" (ie laws which there is a strong concensses to change), im talking about laws like murder, and assult.

 

[S.A.M.]

Same response. We've bee through a partition, a civil war, several secessionist movements, riots, bombings since the last 20 years and have 26 states with 26 languages. We are too many people to try and make everyone conform.

 

[Asguard]

so if i murdered you, you would be ok with that????????????
your kidding right??????????
you wouldnt care if the cops just went "oh, a dead body, what, gun shot wound to the head? so what, just throw her on the garbage heep"

I know you like to play devils advocate but i am finding it VERY difficult to belive that this is your opinion

 

[S.A.M.]

It happens surprisingly often in India, we're a fatalistic people. The guy responsible for the massacre of Muslims in the Gujarat riots has been voted into power thrice as governer of the state and even Muslims have voted for him. I'm not saying its good, but its better than the option I see practised by the "secular countries". Its what makes us such survivors as a people.

 

[Asguard]

what?
locking murders up?
HELL no its not. i dont like the justice system but its better than nothing, if someone killed my sisters, my brother, PB, basically anyone i knew i would rather see them detrained in a mental health facility but baring that i will take seeing them in jail. Im dam sure bells would say the exact same thing.

I have seen to many men bashed because they were gay, or for no reason at all. Hell one murder started a riot in sydney

 

[Bells]

It happens surprisingly often in India, we're a fatalistic people. The guy responsible for the massacre of Muslims in the Gujarat riots has been voted into power thrice as governer of the state and even Muslims have voted for him. I'm not saying its good, but its better than the option I see practised by the "secular countries". Its what makes us such survivors as a people.

:bugeye:

I'm sorry. But what?

So when an American soldier is accused of murdering an innocent civilian in Iraq or Afghanistan (as one example), or a soldier in Israel murders a child by shooting him/her because they threw a rock (another example) and they are either promoted, rewarded with compensation or not jailed, you argue that it is a criminal act and a bad thing.. which it is. But a person in India commits or "is responsible for" a massacre and is then thrice voted into power? You think it's somehow better than what we apparently practice in "secular countries"?

Ermm ok.:bugeye:

So when you protest against soldiers murdering innocent civilians, I can remind you of this post and claim that they (the soldiers) might be part of a "fatalistic society" and that it could make them "survivors as a people"? Would that be a fair enough assessment?

 

[CheskiChips]

So you're saying that the reports of violence are false? Made up?


That never happened to her?


So none of this happens in Haredi communities?

Ermm ok.


WTF? Is he kidding himself?

False?

Doesn't exist?

Yes. It really sounds like it does not exist.

I think it is 'something' when people are abused, terrorised, threatened and worse, if they do not comply, even if they are not part of the community.


Then be thankful you don't live there. Otherwise you would be objecting severely.

Maybe; it's possible. Not all of these reports could be falsified (if any). I have heard Israeli Haredi is not like American Haredi. I've never encountered Israeli Haredi because they rarely leave their neighborhoods and they don't like talking to Litvaks (which I am, I am misnagdim )that much. So if it's happening it's a real blemish amongst the Jews and it's a horrible travesty that they would revert to behaving like this.

Unfortunately in Israel there's a really tough line to walk between religion and secular. Many of the religious which are completely harmless seem insane, and if you're not accustomed it's impossible to tell the difference. The government is most likely scared to infringe...the riots it would cause would be a disaster. So again; if this is all true it really brings me a lot of sadness. I also admit that it most likely is.

 

[Bells]

Maybe; it's possible. Not all of these reports could be falsified (if any). I have heard Israeli Haredi is not like American Haredi. I've never encountered Israeli Haredi because they rarely leave their neighborhoods and they don't like talking to Litvaks (which I am, I am misnagdim )that much. So if it's happening it's a real blemish amongst the Jews and it's a horrible travesty that they would revert to behaving like this.

Unfortunately in Israel there's a really tough line to walk between religion and secular. Many of the religious which are completely harmless seem insane, and if you're not accustomed it's impossible to tell the difference. The government is most likely scared to infringe...the riots it would cause would be a disaster. So again; if this is all true it really brings me a lot of sadness. I also admit that it most likely is.

I'll admit, I was surprised it was as bad as it was. I always knew they were very inclusive in that they had very little contact with the general outside world. But I too was shocked and dismayed that it went so far as to cause terror in some who live in these communities. That the mere suspicion could result in your children being kicked from school, as one example, is a prime example of threats and coercion. Threats of violence and violent acts is another thing that I find absolutely shocking. I had always had this mental picture that they were peaceful people. That this level of extremism had not touched them. Sadly I am mistaken.

That the Rabbi's do not condemn such acts of violence also astounds me.

I mean throwing acid on girls, beating women on buses, refusing to let women on a public bus because she's wearing jeans, using threats and intimidation as well as violence.. The Government in Israel needs to look past its fear of infringing on religious freedom when it does get that violent and it infringes on people's basic rights.

All this.. it would be a sad indictment on any society, regardless of their religious inclination.