Jesus was not the Messiah

[CheskiChips]

Most excerpts used to prove Jesus are mistranslated intentionally.

Jesus would be given vinegar and gall on the cross:

Psalms 69:21 (NIV) They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.

Yea, they put poison into my food; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

They didn't poison Jesus.

Zechariah 12:10 (NIV) "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Is talking about the death of the first born in Egypt.

Jesus would be executed by crucifixion, having His hands and feet pierced

Psalms 22:16 (NIV) Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.

For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.
How you could honestly translate "כָּאֲרִי, יָדַי וְרַגְלָי" to mean that...no one really knows.

They would cast lots for Jesus' garments

Psalms 22:18 (NIV) They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

Only him in the history of the world though...right?

And as for the Jews..........

Isaiah 29:13 (NIV) The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.

And the Lord said: Forasmuch as this people draw near, and with their mouth and with their lips do honour Me, but have removed their heart far from Me, and their fear of Me is a commandment of men learned by rote;

They miraculously translate "יִרְאָתָם" as "Worship"...though it couldn't even be remotely translated as such.



Though I do now understand why you hate Israel so much...you're a fundamentalist Christians who most likely blames Jews for Jesus' death.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

See I find this confused. When Jesus was around there were no Christians. His followers were probably mostly Jews like himself with some other groups represented. Enough Jews thought he was the King of the Jews for this to spread rumors that concerned the local Jewish religious leaders, who demanded the Romans do something about him. Some Jews accepted him - and I suppose one could call them a part of the first Christians - and some rejected him. Most people just stood around gawking or listening to rumors and didn't think too deeply on the subject.

I can certainly understand if you are not convinced he is the Messiah, but I don't think your argument is convincing. IOW it offers no logical compulsion or evidence that he is not a special case or a prophet or messiah.

And before we get all tangled up...I am not making the case he was the Messiah, nor am I saying that you should accept him as a Messiah. I am simply saying that your argument seems hardly compelling in the other direction.

You contradict yourself.

I am simply proposing that maybe the people who made the predictions, believed in them & looked forward to their fullfilment were/are better qualified to determine who THEIR Messiah is than latecomers of other groups.
Most jews did not/do not believe he is THEIR Messiah. The vast majority of Jews alive at the time did not even meet Jesus. The vast majority of Jews who met him did not believe he was THEIR Messiah. To them he was just another nutcase among hundreds falsely claiming to be THEIR Messiah.
I'd think it more likely Greeks would recognize Zeus than Japanese would.

 

[wise acre]

I am simply proposing that maybe the people who made the predictions, believed in them & looked forward to their fullfilment were/are better qualified to determine who THEIR Messiah is than latecomers of other groups.

The people who made the predictions were not alive when Jesus was.
But I do note the 'maybe.'

Most jews did not/do not believe he is THEIR Messiah. The vast majority of Jews alive at the time did not even meet Jesus. The vast majority of Jews who met him did not believe he was THEIR Messiah. To them he was just another nutcase among hundreds falsely claiming to be THEIR Messiah.
I'd think it more likely Greeks would recognize Zeus than Japanese would.

If I understand this correctly you are an atheist and are asserting something like...

A Messiah who is not recognized by the majority of his ethnic/religious group cannot be a Messiah.

I think it is strange for an atheist to set up rules for what would or would not prove Messiah nature.

Christians, further, consider Jesus THE Messiah, not simply the Jewish Messiah and they are expecting him to return, at which time he can be recognized by anyone or any creed, even Jews.

In your OP you assert that Christians think Jesus came for Christians, but that doesn't make sense. There were no Christians when he came.

The Christian view is that a Messiah can be missed by most people. They would argue, at least some of them, that those who predicted his coming and those who recognized it 'got it'. Those who didn't had something wrong with them.

Again, I understand that you do not buy this, but trying to logically assert that he cannot be the predicted Messiah - even with the qualifiers - does not work. It is a claim that you the atheist think you know how Messiahs will be responded to and what % will recognize one. How would an atheist know this?

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

“ Originally Posted by StrangerInAStrangeLa
I am simply proposing that maybe the people who made the predictions, believed in them & looked forward to their fullfilment were/are better qualified to determine who THEIR Messiah is than latecomers of other groups. ”

In that statement, "the people who ... ... ..." obviously includes all Jews from the time the 1st predictions were made thru to the present time.

You don't understand it correctly. My point is flying thru you as radio waves. You know Im transmitting something yet are unable to receive it.

I did not say or imply a Messiah who is not recognized by the majority of his ethnic/religious group cannot be a Messiah.
I did not set up or imply any rules.
Christians DO think Jesus came for Christians regardless of whether it makes sense to you.
I am not attempting to assert that Jesus cannot be the predicted Messiah.
I didn't claim to know how Messiahs will be responded to or what percentage will recognize it.
Stop dredging crap up from the deep dark abyss of your mind & fooling yourself into thinking that's what I said.

 

[PieAreSquared]

Though I do now understand why you hate Israel so much...you're a fundamentalist Christians who most likely blames Jews for Jesus' death.

if that's your understanding .. then you truly don't understand what the fundamentalist Xians believe :shrug:

 

[wise acre]

I am simply proposing that maybe the people who made the predictions, believed in them & looked forward to their fullfilment were/are better qualified to determine who THEIR Messiah is than latecomers of other groups. ”

In that statement, "the people who ... ... ..." obviously includes all Jews from the time the 1st predictions were made thru to the present time.

And I still find it odd that you include the 'people who made the predictions since they have not rejected jesus, having never encountered him.

And again, your argument is critical of Christians. As if their beliefs make no sense because the majority of Jews have not accepted Jesus. But Christians believe that he was/is The Messiah and that some Jews, those who made the predictions, were aware of his coming, and that other Jews did not recognize him, though, obviously some did. Many Christians believe that few really 'get it' including Jews and other Christians, let alone other groups.

I still find it odd that an athiest - I will continue assuming this until I am contradicted by you - thinks you know how to evaluate the liklihood of someone being The Messiah and can thus show the flaw in Christian thinking.

I did not say or imply a Messiah who is not recognized by the majority of his ethnic/religious group cannot be a Messiah.

No, but it is clear you do not think it is enough Jews. How many should it be? Clearly groups like Jews for Jesus are not enough, not the Jews who converted, nor the Jews who did recognize Jesus at the time. I assumed that since there is a minority, you throught that this was insufficient.

I did not set up or imply any rules.
Christians DO think Jesus came for Christians regardless of whether it makes sense to you.

And anyone else who recognizes him. And who thus becomes a Christian - with various extras depending on the church involved. When Jesus came there was not a single Christian for him to speak to. He spoke to Jews and Gentiles. If he was coming only for Christians he picked the wrong time. He should have sent some divine messages to prepare the way for himself so that groups could be Christian before his arrival. He considered himself a Jew, which many, but not all Christians realize.

I am not attempting to assert that Jesus cannot be the predicted Messiah.

OK

I didn't claim to know how Messiahs will be responded to or what percentage will recognize it.

You claimed that those who predicted his coming would. But since they were dead, exept for John the Baptist, we cannot say what their reactions would have been. Obviously there are Jews who have accepted that Jesus was the Messiah. There were many early Christians who were ethnically Jewish. In fact there was a controversy for a while as to whether one had to become Jewish first before becoming Christian. There are conversions every year by Jews to Christianity - and vice versa, of course. There are even some surviving ethinically Jewish Christian groups. Toss in Jews for Jesus and oddballs like Ram Dass who see Jesus as a Messiah figure and were born Jewish. Etc. So I was assuming these were not sufficient in number for you. That is why I assumed you thought the numbers were not high enough. Which is why I interpreted your position as critical because a majority (or must it be consensus) do not accept him as a Messiah within the Jewish community. I hope you can see how that is a fairly reasonable conclusion and will not find reason to ad hom me again as you did below.

Stop dredging crap up from the deep dark abyss of your mind & fooling yourself into thinking that's what I said.

Avoid the ad homs, please.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

It's not an ad hom or even an ad hominem. It's fact. As you clearly demonstrate with the very post which ends with an absurd ad hom accusation.

 

[wise acre]

It's not an ad hom or even an ad hominem. It's fact. As you clearly demonstrate with the very post which ends with an absurd ad hom accusation.

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

Stop dredging crap up from the deep dark abyss of your mind & fooling yourself into thinking that's what I said.

Your post includes a description of a hypothetical process that I went through to arrive at what I said. This is focusing on me and not the argument. An ad hom does not have to be an insult. I'll be sure to write out 'ad hominem' in full from now on.

 

[wise acre]

1)

I am not attempting to assert that Jesus cannot be the predicted Messiah.

Thread Title: Jesus was not the Messiah

2)

I did not say or imply a Messiah who is not recognized by the majority of his ethnic/religious group cannot be a Messiah

From an objective perspective, 1 must assume Jews were/are better qualified to judge whether their Messiah has come yet.

A negligible number of Jews accepted Jesus as the Messiah.

I am simply proposing that maybe the people who made the predictions, believed in them & looked forward to their fullfilment were/are better qualified to determine who THEIR Messiah is than latecomers of other groups.
Most jews did not/do not believe he is THEIR Messiah.

I cannot understand these latter quotes as anything other than trying to show that since a majority did not recognize Jesus he cannot be the Messiah - note again the thread title.

The amount of Jews who did and do accept Jesus as the Messiah you consider 'negligible', without explaining your criteria, which is a separate issue.

When I responded to what you are clearly asserting I receive

Stop dredging crap up from the deep dark abyss of your mind & fooling yourself into thinking that's what I said.

When I point out this is an ad hominem and ask you to refrain from ad hominems, you tell me, incorrectly, that it was not an ad hominem.

OK. That's enough for me. I'll ignore you from here on out. I can only imagine the responses I'd get if I was a theist.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

The statement you call ad hom is a valid criticism of your "thinking process" & your persistent twisting of my words & a request for you to stop such.

Yes. You CANNOT understand. That is clear by now.
The topic & issues of discussion are CLEARLY set out by the title AND the OP not the title alone.
You are NOT responding to what I am saying, only what you're imagining.

Why don't you ignore me from the start? Delete all your ridiculous posts from this thread?