Jesus was not the Messiah

swarm said:
They still do except there isn't any "the" messiah, its just a messiah. There were a number of them during the Roman occupation and after the destruction of Jerusalem, there have recently found letters in the "cave of letters" from the second period in the dead sea area which thrown a lot more light on a much more famous at the time actual Jewish messiah Bar Kokhba. Like most Jewish messiahs of the day, he went down hard trying to free Israel from Roman rule.
Click to expand...
Messiah, moshiah, etc... is only ONE dude..........

and Jesus was the Bar Kokhba of another period but still not messiah

Jesus however would never have been accepted as an actual messiah, he just doesn't fit the part at all and didn't even try to free the home land.
Click to expand...

now you just incorporated religious dogma; ie.... there is no 'home land' to any religious nation. Mankind is Israel (children of God)

the idea of 'freeing' is that knowledge is what frees mankind.

Have you ever heard the idea "and the truth will set you free"

the context you are representing is another misinterpretation of old works

Meaning: much the biblical outlook people are seeking has been damaged.

Messiah is for ONE thing; to reveal knowledge allowing each born to comprehend what life is so to be able to make decisions so each person can live longer.


And by understanding, the GLOBAL religions will be over!
 
my argument is based on the premise that jew means god's people.

assuming jews are god's people, christians are jews who believe in jesus, because jesus was sent by god to continue teaching people the word of god. in the vernacular "christian" and "jew" are just ways of distinguishing between the two established religions.

from a christian perspective "jews" are no longer god's people because they've ignored his prophet, (who it turns out is kind of god). so using that line of thinking, christians are the real jews, and are better qualified to judge others.

Which religions don't use faith and fabrication?
 
Bishadi said:
If you just want to make stuff up, why bother talking with others? You know they will just point out you are wrong
Click to expand...

The term is used in the Hebrew Bible to describe Israelite priests, prophets, and kings who were anointed with oil in consecration to their respective offices. For example, Cyrus the Great, the king of Persia, is referred to as "God's anointed" (Messiah) in the Bible. As explained by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan,[7]

The Hebrew word for “Messiah” is “Moshiach” The literal and proper translation of this word is “anointed,” which refers to a ritual of anointing and consecrating someone or something with oil. (I Samuel 10:1-2) It is used throughout the Jewish Bible in reference to a wide variety of individuals and objects; for example, a Jewish king (I Kings 1:39), Jewish priests (Leviticus 4:3), prophets (Isaiah 61:1), the Jewish Temple and its utensils (Exodus 40:9-11), unleavened bread (Numbers 6:15), and a non-Jewish king (Cyrus king of Persia, Isaiah 45:1).

The Tanakh contains a number (the number is debated) of prophecies concerning a future descendant of King David who will be anointed as the Jewish people's new leader (moshiach).[8].

Jews believe that Daniel (Hebrew: דָּנִיֵּאל, or Daniyyel) was a prophet and gave an indication of when the Messiah, the prince mashiyach nagiyd, would come.(Daniel 9:25-26) Daniel's prophecies refer to him as a descendant of King David who will rebuild the nation of Israel, destroy the wicked, and ultimately judge the whole world.

As noted above, the Hebrew word for messiah translates to "anointed". [9] Reform Jews believe there have been many messiahs—all the anointed kings and priests, including David, Solomon, Aaron, and Saul. Saul, the first king, is designated the "Anointed of the Lord".[10]

When speaking of the Messiah of the future, modern Jews speak of two potential messiahs: Moshiach ben Yossef (Messiah son of Joseph) and Moshiach ben David (Messiah son of David)[11] The Hebrew ben can mean either son or descendant. In this sense it can also mean "in the manner of," i.e., there will be a "suffering servant" messiah in the manner of Joseph, son of Israel/Jacob, and a different messiah in the manner of King David.

A common modern rabbinic interpretation is that there is a potential messiah in every generation. The Talmud, which often uses stories to make a moral point (aggadah), tells of a highly respected rabbi who found the Messiah at the gates of Rome and asked him, "When will you finally come?" He was quite surprised when he was told, "Today." Overjoyed and full of anticipation, the man waited all day. The next day he returned, disappointed and puzzled, and asked, "You said messiah would come 'today' but he didn't come! What happened?" The Messiah replied, "Scripture says, 'Today, 'if you will but hearken to His voice.'" (Psalm 95:7)

Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism believe in a unique future physical messiah who will usher in the messianic age of war before peace to the world.

Reform Judaism and Reconstructionist Judaism teach both the belief in a messiah or messiahs, or that there will be a time of peace (Messianic Era), etc. They believe such time will be the result of human efforts at tikkun olam (repair of the world) through working on social justice, not from one man alone.

"Choice is the underlying reason the Reform Movement gave up the need for and belief in a single messiah who would one day bring judgment, and perhaps salvation, to the world. The fact that God imbues us with free choice mitigates the need for a messianic figure."[12]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah

FYI christ aka christos is just another word for annointed.
 
codanblad said:
my argument is based on the premise that Jew means god's people.
Click to expand...

The Jewish ethnonym in Hebrew is יהודים Yehudim (plural of יהודי Yehudi) which is the origin of the English word Jew. The Hebrew name is derived from the region name Judah (Yehudah יהודה). Originally the name referred to the territory alloted to the tribe descended from Judah the fourth son of the patriarch Jacob (Numbers).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_the_word_Jew

Over the past three thousand years, the name "Israel" has meant in common and religious usage both the Land of Israel and the entire Jewish nation.[21] According to the Bible, Jacob is renamed Israel after successfully wrestling with an angel of God.[22]

The earliest archaeological artifact to mention "Israel" (other than as a personal name) is the Merneptah Stele of ancient Egypt (dated the late 13th century BCE) where it refers to the people of the land.[23] The modern country was named Medinat Yisrael, or the State of Israel, after other proposed names, including Eretz Israel ("the Land of Israel"), Zion, and Judea, were rejected.[24] In the early weeks of independence, the government chose the term "Israeli" to denote a citizen of Israel, with the formal announcement made by Minister of Foreign Affairs Moshe Sharett.[25]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

Specifically, in the Hebrew Bible, called the Old Testament by Christians, and the Tanach by Jews, the phrase Chosen People refers to the ancient Hebrews/Israelites. In the Book of Deuteronomy, God proclaims the Nation of Israel, known originally simply as the Hebrews, as His holy people, chosen above all others (Deuteronomy 7:6). As mentioned in the book of Exodus, the Hebrew people are God's chosen people and from them shall come the Messiah, or redeemer of the human race. The Israelites also possess the "Word of God" and/or "Law of God" in the form of the Torah as communicated by God to Moses. Jews and, by extension
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people

Hebrew
late O.E., from O.Fr. Ebreu, from L. Hebraeus, from Gk. Hebraios, from Aramaic 'ebhrai, corresponding to Heb. 'ibhri "an Israelite," lit. "one from the other side," in reference to the River Euphrates, or perhaps simply signifying "immigrant;" from 'ebher "region on the other or opposite side."
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Hebrew

None of these words Jew, Israeli or Hebrew, specifically mean "god's chosen." instead they just are god's chosen, according to them.

assuming Jews are god's people, Christians are Jews who believe in Jesus,
Click to expand...

In the beginning, under Peter and the actual apostles this was true. But under Saul/Paul the gentiles stopped having to become Jews (which increased the popularity immensely since nobody wants to become a Jew and have their dick whacked and stop eating good food.)

So no, modern xtians can't really be considered Jews. The just stole the Jewish holy book and some of their less onerous holidays and traditions.


because Jesus was sent by god
Click to expand...

You have to remember that is just a xtian claim which the real Jews don't recognize.
 
swarm said:
The Jewish ethnonym in Hebrew is יהודים Yehudim (plural of יהודי Yehudi) which is the origin of the English word Jew. The Hebrew name is derived from the region name Judah (Yehudah יהודה). Originally the name referred to the territory alloted to the tribe descended from Judah the fourth son of the patriarch Jacob (Numbers).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_the_word_Jew

Over the past three thousand years, the name "Israel" has meant in common and religious usage both the Land of Israel and the entire Jewish nation.[21] According to the Bible, Jacob is renamed Israel after successfully wrestling with an angel of God.[22]

The earliest archaeological artifact to mention "Israel" (other than as a personal name) is the Merneptah Stele of ancient Egypt (dated the late 13th century BCE) where it refers to the people of the land.[23] The modern country was named Medinat Yisrael, or the State of Israel, after other proposed names, including Eretz Israel ("the Land of Israel"), Zion, and Judea, were rejected.[24] In the early weeks of independence, the government chose the term "Israeli" to denote a citizen of Israel, with the formal announcement made by Minister of Foreign Affairs Moshe Sharett.[25]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

Specifically, in the Hebrew Bible, called the Old Testament by Christians, and the Tanach by Jews, the phrase Chosen People refers to the ancient Hebrews/Israelites. In the Book of Deuteronomy, God proclaims the Nation of Israel, known originally simply as the Hebrews, as His holy people, chosen above all others (Deuteronomy 7:6). As mentioned in the book of Exodus, the Hebrew people are God's chosen people and from them shall come the Messiah, or redeemer of the human race. The Israelites also possess the "Word of God" and/or "Law of God" in the form of the Torah as communicated by God to Moses. Jews and, by extension
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people

Hebrew
late O.E., from O.Fr. Ebreu, from L. Hebraeus, from Gk. Hebraios, from Aramaic 'ebhrai, corresponding to Heb. 'ibhri "an Israelite," lit. "one from the other side," in reference to the River Euphrates, or perhaps simply signifying "immigrant;" from 'ebher "region on the other or opposite side."
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Hebrew

None of these words Jew, Israeli or Hebrew, specifically mean "god's chosen." instead they just are god's chosen, according to them.



In the beginning, under Peter and the actual apostles this was true. But under Saul/Paul the gentiles stopped having to become Jews (which increased the popularity immensely since nobody wants to become a Jew and have their dick whacked and stop eating good food.)

So no, modern xtians can't really be considered Jews. The just stole the Jewish holy book and some of their less onerous holidays and traditions.




You have to remember that is just a xtian claim which the real Jews don't recognize.
Click to expand...


i thought annoiting was what people did to the dead?

are all dead people messiah?

Me personally; it is what the dude does for mankind that makes him a messiah, not what people write about.

eg.... if the old seers saw the messiah in a vision, they are describing what they saw in their words of the time period. So it is not that messiah needs to be like what they thought but that the dude does what is right and the world either realizes what is true, or not.

I believe that is what the 144k means; that before the war #3, that very few will actually know the reality before the corrupt start the fireworks show.

it is why i say, either live and know life, or buy suntan lotion.


life only works ONE way; everything else is from tangents created by words. (priorities are all screwed up within mankind)

eg.... if people realized that abortions are literally killing themselves, never again would a person ever do it.

as it is purely..... 'dishonoring' their mother and father, by killing the next generation of that line of life (to me it is like having the last dinosaur eating its own young)
 
Last edited:
swarm said:
You have to remember that is just a xtian claim which the real Jews don't recognize.
Click to expand...

i am aware of that, 'what's a real jew' was what i was getting at. i know there's a jew (background) and a jew (beliefs), but i was suggesting that the if we define religious jews as the true followers of god, and we acknowledge jesus, then christians are the real jews. Likewise if you acknowledge mohammed muslims are the real jews.

other than being imo interesting its all meaningless.
 
StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
With nothing other than faith & fabrication, Christians preposterously presume to know better.
Click to expand...
Jesus was the Messiah, just read the Old Testament prophecy which the Jews are of clearly fufilled.

Jesus would be given vinegar and gall on the cross:

Psalms 69:21 (NIV) They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.

Jesus would be executed by crucifixion, having His hands and feet pierced

Zechariah 12:10 (NIV) "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Psalms 22:16 (NIV) Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.

They would cast lots for Jesus' garments

Psalms 22:18 (NIV) They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

And as for the Jews..........

Isaiah 29:13 (NIV) The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.

The Jews rejected their Messiah whence why Christians rules the Globe we are with God.
 
Brian Foley said:
Jesus was the Messiah, just read the Old Testament prophecy which the Jews are of clearly fufilled.

Jesus would be given vinegar and gall on the cross:

Psalms 69:21 (NIV) They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.

Jesus would be executed by crucifixion, having His hands and feet pierced

Zechariah 12:10 (NIV) "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Psalms 22:16 (NIV) Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.

They would cast lots for Jesus' garments

Psalms 22:18 (NIV) They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

And as for the Jews..........

Isaiah 29:13 (NIV) The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.

The Jews rejected their Messiah whence why Christians rules the Globe we are with God.
Click to expand...


You are using stories (songs) of david (talking to god) and suggesting this is what made jesus messiah?


Messiah is someone who 'frees mankind'

He is who enables the four corners of life to understand and know God.

and you think that these songs and stories of torah provide evidence os jesus being messiah, when nothing of "life giving absolute truth" has been given.

To me it seems you forgot what messiah is all about.

Perhaps lost the "faith" in the promise from God?

:shrug:
 
StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
The Jews believed the Messiah would come to set things right for the Jews. Then Christians came along claiming he came for the Christians & Jews reject him.
From an objective perspective, 1 must assume Jews were/are better qualified to judge whether their Messiah has come yet.
With nothing other than faith & fabrication, Christians preposterously presume to know better.
Click to expand...
See I find this confused. When Jesus was around there were no Christians. His followers were probably mostly Jews like himself with some other groups represented. Enough Jews thought he was the King of the Jews for this to spread rumors that concerned the local Jewish religious leaders, who demanded the Romans do something about him. Some Jews accepted him - and I suppose one could call them a part of the first Christians - and some rejected him. Most people just stood around gawking or listening to rumors and didn't think too deeply on the subject.

I can certainly understand if you are not convinced he is the Messiah, but I don't think your argument is convincing. IOW it offers no logical compulsion or evidence that he is not a special case or a prophet or messiah.

And before we get all tangled up...I am not making the case he was the Messiah, nor am I saying that you should accept him as a Messiah. I am simply saying that your argument seems hardly compelling in the other direction.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top