Jesus the conman

answers said:
"The point was that there is no evidence for the existance of Jesus."

lol I think you'll find historians all agree 9/10 that Jesus existed, just what exactly he was is what people argue about. Read Josh Mc Dowells evidence that demands a verdict, it'll help you out here.

CyA


So what you're implying is, because 9/10 historians believe he may have existed he did. But they have been wrong many times in the past, so what makes them so reliable?

I think what the others have been saying about demanding evidence is a good point. I mean to think we don't even know if he exists or not. I just don't think you can use something that can be imaginary as a defense.
 
Look into it http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?event=AFF&p=1009027&item_no=42199#curr . Or read what the Jewish Historian Josephus wrote about Jesus and His followers. This book has a hundred or so pages which deals with this specific topic, I'm not going to re-write a hundred pages for you. I make one remark that a majority of historians acknowledge Jesus as existing, and because I haven't backed it up by sources and explained it totally, it is straight away thrown out. So why should I bother giving you a copied summary of the info when it is just going to be thrown out. You want the evidence, you want the information, go to that link and get the book that has it in it, instead of saying things like "I just don't think you can use something that can be imaginary as a defense. " If you aren't bothered even getting a book like this one and looking into it, why should I have to spoon feed you the info. We're all grown up's here, lets make an effort to find truth, it's easy to find lies though, but they don't help much. You ask a lot of me when you are fully capable of finding things out for yourself, what I say to you is worth nothing to you anyway, so it's better for you to come to your own conclusions. With that said, I must comment that I am amazed that people would deny Jesus's very existence. There is so much evidence that supports it. You might as well say Plato was a fictional character, or that Gengis Khan was made up. Only can true ignorance suggest such a thing, and yet out of ignorance people condem christianity because they haven't made the effort to look into it. I find it amazing that people could be so narrow minded.
 
answers said:
and yet out of ignorance people condem christianity because they haven't made the effort to look into it. I find it amazing that people could be so narrow minded.

It's not out of ignorance I condemn Christianity or any religion for that matter. Condemn is not an accurate description, vilify is better. Let's say I don't support it. Think about it answers, how many god(s) fearing religions are there in the world and how many have come and gone? If there is a god it's no guarantee that any of them are correct.

I think the ignorance belongs with the religious. Ignorance of fact, ignorance of others, ignorance of logical thinking to name a few. The ultimate act of ignorance is faith. To believe in an unknowable, non-physical entity, is to ignore the very intelligence that you were born with.
 
PsychoticEpisode said:
I know Med Woman likes to expound on Jesus' non existence. That's ok but I personally find it hard to believe a Jesuslike character did not exist because in some cases the Bible deals with historical fact albeit fuzzy at times. Such being the case I do not for one minute believe He was the son of a god. Whether or not he claimed this or was labelled as such makes no difference.

The fact is this guy's presence affected generations. If he did exist he was pretty smart. In fact he may have border on genius, real MENSA material.
There is no contemporary evidence showing that a Jesus Messiah Character ever existed.

The reason why the Jesus character appears to be very clever (MENSA material) is because he is a compilation of parables refined over thousands of years. Also recall that 50% of the earlier Xians were Gnostic and they themselves while Xian did NOT believe in the existence of Jesus. The Jesus character was used to illustrate an important point, an analogy per say – sort of learning through a story.

For example, the 153 fish pulled from the sea. 153 is a powerful mathematical ratio that is formed when two circles intersect – Archimedes wrote about it extensively. This is seen even today in the Jesus Fish symbol.

So in short – no Jesus.
 
answers said:
"The point was that there is no evidence for the existance of Jesus."

lol I think you'll find historians all agree 9/10 that Jesus existed, just what exactly he was is what people argue about. Read Josh Mc Dowells evidence that demands a verdict, it'll help you out here.

CyA
Do you also think that Hercules existed?
(He is another of many half God half man)
 
answers, are you sure you want to use McDowell's book as corroboration for an argument?

That book's "arguments" have been torn to shreds. Really, you will be surprised. Back in the day, I used to read those books too and marvel at just how watertight my faith was. But I advice you not to trust what McDowell claims to have researched simply because he is a Christian defending the faith.
 
This is a total strawman argument, Alexb. You are talking about the church, not Jesus. The orthodoxy says he died for your sins, they are the ones asking for money, they are the ones with political power.

The power of Jesus is not his existence or lack of it, but the words attributed to him, and not just in the bible.
 
spidergoat said:
This is a total strawman argument, Alexb. You are talking about the church, not Jesus. The orthodoxy says he died for your sins, they are the ones asking for money, they are the ones with political power.

The power of Jesus is not his existence or lack of it, but the words attributed to him, and not just in the bible.

Of course I am talking about the Church and their use of Jesus to contiune this con that dates back Centurys. I could not be blaming Jesus for these acts as he didn't exists and even if he did it was not in the documented form as the Son of God.
 
As a response to the thread title:

A conman usually has something to gain from their con, usually financial, what did Jesus gain?
 
davewhite04 said:
As a response to the thread title:

A conman usually has something to gain from their con, usually financial, what did Jesus gain?

A massive following with virtually unlimited resources and wealth.

Martyrs are far more succesful when they're dead.
 
(Q) said:
A massive following with virtually unlimited resources and wealth.

Martyrs are far more succesful when they're dead.

Well Jesus never had a house during His ministry and on occassions had to pray to produce food to feed His followers. You are right that He had unlimited resources and potential for unlimited wealth, it just wasn't His thing.

Not sure why you wrote your last paragraph.
 
davewhite04 said:
Well Jesus never had a house during His ministry and on occassions had to pray to produce food to feed His followers.

And food just magically appeared from thin air? Uh-huh.

You are right that He had unlimited resources and potential for unlimited wealth, it just wasn't His thing.

Not sure why you wrote your last paragraph.

Obviously, so that the point of my post would go right over your head, and it was successful.

Christianity NOW has unlimited resources and wealth, and they have the myth of Jesus to thank for that. How much have they picked your pockets?
 
The con wasn’t perpetrated by Jesus, if he existed at all which is rather unlikely. Methinks the con was officially kick-started by Constantine in about 325AD, when he consolidated his power by making Christianity the state religion in the Roman Empire. From there the con just escalated into the intolerant, bloodthirsty, supremacist, capitalist superstition we still see to this day.

I would not get too excited by Josh McDowell. Not an entirely honest chap it turns out. Just a regular Christian.
 
(Q) said:
And food just magically appeared from thin air? Uh-huh.

Yes, it's called a miracle. It's a miracle that you're alive to day, you just don't know it.

Christianity NOW has unlimited resources and wealth, and they have the myth of Jesus to thank for that. How much have they picked your pockets?

Much of Christianity today is as far from Christ as you are.
 
davewhite04 said:
Yes, it's called a miracle. It's a miracle that you're alive to day, you just don't know it.

Oh, I would agree that my life is a miracle in that it is an amazing and wonderous occurence, but I don't agree its an event manifesting a supernatural act of some god.

And although, you may think it was due to a god, you'll have to explain whose god exactly, your god? Allah? Who and why?

And then you'll have to explain why it is not simply a result of nature and evolution?

There are plenty of stories throughout history which defy all reason and logic. Its your job to quantify those stories for what they are, or you'll have to accept them and all other stories that have no basis in reality.

Of course, you probably won't do that. You'll only accept those stories that you WANT to believe and discard the rest as nonsense.

Much of Christianity today is as far from Christ as you are.

So is Christmas and Easter, but you celebrate them nonetheless in the fashion presented today and not that of centuries ago myths.

And it does not preclude the fact that Christianity is a huge business, with millions of followers having unlimited resources.
 
stretched said:
The con wasn’t perpetrated by Jesus, if he existed at all which is rather unlikely. Methinks the con was officially kick-started by Constantine in about 325AD, when he consolidated his power by making Christianity the state religion in the Roman Empire. From there the con just escalated into the intolerant, bloodthirsty, supremacist, capitalist superstition we still see to this day.

I would not get too excited by Josh McDowell. Not an entirely honest chap it turns out. Just a regular Christian.
Pretty much. Although I think it is likely that Jesus existed. In fact I think there were many like him, and he happened to become the most popular.
 
And then you'll have to explain why it is not simply a result of nature and evolution?

For starters evolution does not answer the question of where matter came from and how the first cell was created. A single strand of DNA is a miracle in itself, and it takes more faith to believe it came about by forces of nature combined with chance then it does to believe it was designed by a creator.

Of course, you probably won't do that. You'll only accept those stories that you WANT to believe and discard the rest as nonsense.

Same could be said to you if you accept something like cosmic evolution, chemical evolution, macro evolution etc.
 
davewhite04 said:
For starters evolution does not answer the question of where matter came from and how the first cell was created.

Dave, you better put down the bible and start reading other books. Evolution NEVER attempted to answer those questions, that is your own ignorance of the subject matter.

A single strand of DNA is a miracle in itself, and it takes more faith to believe it came about by forces of nature combined with chance then it does to believe it was designed by a creator.

No, and again, that is your own ignorance of the subject matter. If you actually took the time to understand that which you so easily dismiss, you'll find your assertions are unfounded.

And if you actually believe a creator was involved, then you'll also have to explain why there are so many flaws in us as humans when compared to other animals.

For example, why does the eye of an eagle contain four times the amount of light-sensitive rods and cones than a human eye? Why can an eagle see distant scenes in great detail compared to a human eye?

The anwser lies in evolution, Dave.

Same could be said to you if you accept something like cosmic evolution, chemical evolution, macro evolution etc.

I don't merely accept others assertions as do you. I consider the mountains of evidence that support those assertions, and don't merely rely on a single book that makes assertions and does not provide any evidence, but instead, takes that which is easily explained and makes it mystical and unattainable.

BIG difference, Dave.
 
Let's step it up a notch shall we?

Religions are natural, interesting, powerful things.

They are the resultant of the pressure to survive in the face of harsh conditions. They are a by-product of circumstance.

Take away the internet. Take away grocery stores... take away a massive population and highway system. Get back to the beginning of the tribal mindset. Get back to a time when language was first coming to be.

What do you see?

I see a species beginning an abstract journey to comprehend and overcome their environmental challenges.

As language develops via the capacity and necessity for communication, certain things become evident.. like that some are stronger and some are smarter. Each of these however, needs the other to survive.

What bonds the tribe? What answers their questions? What unites them in the face of certain death? The smart or more powerful ones come to conclusions that fit their percieved circumstance and limited knowledge. They relate to their environment by projecting themselves onto it, as we do... with nothing else to go on, it's probably reasonable to presume that some being, obviously a being with powers beyond the scope of tribal comprehension, must be controlling things like the sun, weather, blah blah. what else could explain it?

further, by coming to a common conclusion for the tribe as to the explanation of the unexplainable, the tribe is united through a common understanding.. a common motivation. as time progressed, the beliefs of the predecessors pass from generation and so forth... each time being modified to meet the needs of an expanding comprehension of environment, or a common disspointment thereof. if there was no food this season, what must we have done to offend the controller? it would seem that grasping at straws of appeasement would be the only rational course of action. when it would seem to work, it would be accepted as the proper method and adopted as well, gospel - so to speak.

what's interesting to me here, is that through this graduated process, the ideas take on a "life of their own" so to speak. these abstracts that are passed from one generation to the next serve the purpose of survival as it is seen through the eyes of those who undertake it, though they may not be able to state it so plainly.

so...

religion is a function of evolution. it serves to bond and empower the tribe. ultimately it's an abstract expression of the trials of the history of the species. as generation after generation passed, it become formalized into tradition. each instance of religion of course, could and did definateley clash greatly with other versions of the story of life.

the basis of religion (the "truth" of its content) has little or nothing to do with its function and utility in evolutionary terms. obviously, it has continued function and utility even to this day.

bah, there's more but I'm spent at the moment. please pardon the lack of clarity, organization and perhaps a couple of non-sequiters.

IF jesus existed, I don't see him as more of a conman than any man trying to represent a cause. From the perspective that he is, I'd say anyone representing anything remotely altruistic or profitable must also be a conman.
 
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(Q) said:
Dave, you better put down the bible and start reading other books. Evolution NEVER attempted to answer those questions, that is your own ignorance of the subject matter.

I never said it did attempt to. You're the one who mentioned it...

No, and again, that is your own ignorance of the subject matter. If you actually took the time to understand that which you so easily dismiss, you'll find your assertions are unfounded.

Can you tell me how the first DNA strand came to be? In fact, an easier question, scientically can you explain how the universe came to be?

And if you actually believe a creator was involved, then you'll also have to explain why there are so many flaws in us as humans when compared to other animals.

Considering you and me are copies of copies of copies of copies... we're in pretty good shape.

For example, why does the eye of an eagle contain four times the amount of light-sensitive rods and cones than a human eye? Why can an eagle see distant scenes in great detail compared to a human eye?

Because they need to?

The anwser lies in evolution, Dave.

An explanation lies in evolution, whether it is true or not we don't know.

I don't merely accept others assertions as do you. I consider the mountains of evidence that support those assertions, and don't merely rely on a single book that makes assertions and does not provide any evidence, but instead, takes that which is easily explained and makes it mystical and unattainable.

BIG difference, Dave.

Not really. You believe in what other people have wrote, so do I.
 
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