Jesus saves, and at today's prices, that's a miracle

[okinrus]

The quote posted neatly leaves out a good section Isaiah 49:1-7 with .... Nevertheless it is clear from Isaiah 49:5 that Isreal doesn't need to gathered back to Isreal. "For now the LORD has spoken who formed me as his servant from the womb, That Jacob may be brought back to him and Isreal gathered to him; And I am made glorious in the sight of the LORD, and my God is now my strength!" It's obviously some attempt to proclaim Isreal as the servent but why not proclaim Jacob as well. "The Lord has redeemed his servent Jacob."(Isaiah 48:20)

Isaiah 49 is a good section away from Isaiah 53. Perhaps this passage wasn't direct enough "Hark! Your watchman raise a cry, together they shout for joy, For they see directly, before their eyes, the LORD restoring Zion."(Isaiah 52:8)

Isaiah 30:20 "The Lord will give you the bread you need and the water for which you thirst. No longer will your Teacher hide himsef, but with your own eyes you shall see your Teacher."

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by okinrus
"For now the LORD has spoken who formed me as his servant from the womb, That Jacob may be brought back to him and Isreal gathered to him; And I am made glorious in the sight of the LORD, and my God is now my strength!"(Isaiah 48:20)
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M*W: When Christians explain this text, don't they believe the LORD is Jesus? Or do they believe the LORD is God? When I read this text, I see the LORD as the One Spirit of God who dwells within my soul.
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Isaiah 30:20 "The Lord will give you the bread you need and the water for which you thirst. No longer will your Teacher hide himsef, but with your own eyes you shall see your Teacher."
----------
M*W: The LORD, again to me, is the One Spirit of God who gives me the knowledge and the power to earn my bread and quench my thirst. My TEACHER is the One God that dwells within my soul and the soul of every human being. My TEACHER is the one who gives me insight to my physical needs and spiritual needs.
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M*W: Regarding your earlier citation about anyone who teaches that which is contrary to what they know is an antichrist--that doesn't really make much sense. Please explain "...contrary to what they know." I don't believe Jesus was the Messiah. I know it's a myth. If I spoke "contrary" to this belief, I'd be a Christian and not an antichrist. That would mean all Jews are antichrists ; all Muslims are antichrists; some Christian fringe groups (Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc.) are antichrists perhaps. I'm getting into an area I don't know here, but wouldn't all Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, etc. be antichrists? And, of course, Atheists would be antichrists, so wouldn't that make 2/3 of the world potential antichrists? Man, that's a lot of antichrists! So it all boils down to Christians = 1/3 antichrists = 2/3 of the population.

 

[okinrus]

M*W: When Christians explain this text, don't they believe the LORD is Jesus? Or do they believe the LORD is God? When I read this text, I see the LORD as the One Spirit of God who dwells within my soul.

Typically Yahweh(this is LORD in my translation) is refering to the Father. However, Jesus also shares the same divinity and name.

M*W: The LORD, again to me, is the One Spirit of God who gives me the knowledge and the power to earn my bread and quench my thirst. My TEACHER is the One God that dwells within my soul and the soul of every human being. My TEACHER is the one who gives me insight to my physical needs and spiritual needs.

You've already been given the power to earn your bread since genesis "By the sweat of you shall you get bread to eat." Yes your teacher is God this is why Jeremiah or Isaiah said that our only teacher is our Lord. But because this passage in Isaiah says that they will see their Teacher implying that they will see their Lord. When Jesus tells his disciples that the Messiah is their only Teacher he is in effect calling himself God.

 

[okinrus]

M*W: Regarding your earlier citation about anyone who teaches that which is contrary to what they know is an antichrist--that doesn't really make much sense. Please explain "...contrary to what they know." I don't believe Jesus was the Messiah. I know it's a myth. If I spoke "contrary" to this belief, I'd be a Christian and not an antichrist. That would mean all Jews are antichrists ; all Muslims are antichrists; some Christian fringe groups (Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc.) are antichrists perhaps. I'm getting into an area I don't know here, but wouldn't all Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, etc. be antichrists? And, of course, Atheists would be antichrists, so wouldn't that make 2/3 of the world potential antichrists? Man, that's a lot of antichrists! So it all boils down to Christians = 1/3 antichrists = 2/3 of the population.

No, the term anti-christ refers to someone who is against the teachings of Jesus. When John uses the spirit of the anti-chris, he does not mean they are an anti-christ. This was a stern warning to the day when there would be the anti-christ and just mere ignorance is not enough to qualify. As to you being an anti-christ, if you don't think I can see through your pride 1000 miles away you have to be joking.

 

[Jenyar]

Re: Jews believe in reincarnation!

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
We're granted other lives in which to advance our souls and rectify past mistakes. Jewish eschatology is made up of three basic pieces. 1) The Era of the Coming Messiah (according to Jewish Tradition). 2) The Afterlife. 3) The World of Our Own Personal Resurrection. (Not the resurrection of Jesus as explained in the NT).

I'm not going to reply to your post in detail, but i just want to make you aware of the following Jewish positions:

MyJewishLearning: reincarnation

Reincarnation is the idea that a soul now residing in a particular body may have resided in the body of another person in an earlier period of time. Theories of reincarnation or metempsychosis are found in many religions and cultures, ancient and modern, but there are no references to the idea in the Bible or the Talmud and it was unknown in Judaism until the eighth century CE, when it began to be adopted by the Karaites [a sectarian Jewish group] (possibly, it has been suggested, under the influence of Islamic mysticism).

The usual Hebrew term for reincarnation is gilgul, "rolling," that is, the soul "rolls" through time from one body to a different body. The earliest [non-Karaite] reference to the doctrine is that of Saadiah [882-942] (Beliefs and Opinions, vi. 8). Saadiah writes:

"Yet I must say that I have found certain people, who call themselves Jews, professing the doctrine of metempsychosis, which is designated by them as the theory of the 'transmigration' of souls. What they mean thereby is that the spirit of Reuben is transferred to Simeon and afterwards to Levi and after that to Judah. [These names are generic, like Tom, Dick and Harry; no reference to the sons of Jacob is intended. Ed.] Many of them would even go so far as to assert that the spirit of a human being might enter into the body of a beast or that of a beast into the body of a human being, and other such nonsense and stupidities."

We learn incidentally from Saadiah's discussion that one of the reasons these people believed in reincarnation (this reason resurfaces in the Kabbalah) was because of the theological difficulties in God allowing little children to suffer. That they do, it was argued, is because of sins they had committed in a previous existence.

The Christian perspective is of course that Jesus suffered as we suffer, and because he bore our sins, you don't need many lives until you are redeemed.

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Nehushta
By the way, it was expected that Elijah's mission would be to "turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers" before God should smite the earth with a curse. Don't you find it odd that Jesus' stated mission was to do exactly the opposite - i.e., to stir up hatred and division between family members? And no - Jesus didn't say that he knew these things would happen simply as a result of people listening to his message and following him - he said that's specifically what he came to do! Jesus came to turn those who do wickedly, including those who do not honor their families, into stubble. Jesus was the curse; he was the star called "Wormwood" that made the third part of the waters bitter causing many to perish.

It is true in the sense that Jesus made God's salvation clear and unambiguous. You are either on God's side or you are not. I can't imagine even Elijah saying that and not causing division. Remember what Simeon said when Jesus was consecrated in Jerusalem: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed."

You really have to consider what kind of division and what kind of peace. By revealing a person's allegiance, making it visible, it must necessarily be approved or rejected, and that is frequently a choice between peace with God or peace with the world.

James 4:4
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

Elijah is still the herald for God's peace, just as John was the herald for God's judgment. Both come from the same God, and both are equally true.

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Nehushta
Jesus misquoted Isaiah 6 just slightly - here is the original version in Isaiah 6:9-12:

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

God told Isaiah to utter a curse to confound people and to hide truth from all those in his audience as part of his plan to bring about the Jewish Exile.

But here is Jesus' version in Matthew 13;10-15:

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

So either Jesus himself had no understanding of God's original intent when he ordered Isaiah to curse the Israelites' understanding, or he was once again deliberately trying to present himself to be a fulfillment of prophecy to those who lacked understanding of the scriptures.

I think it is fitting: God cursed "this" people, who Jesus - in the third person - calls "them". Those cursed by Isaiah are redeemed through Jesus.

But you left out the most important part: the conclusion in verse 13 (of Isaiah 6):
And though a tenth remains in the land,
it will again be laid waste.
But as the terebinth and oak
leave stumps when they are cut down,
so the holy seed will be the stump in the land."

The remnant who would become the holy seed also went through the same trial by fire. "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. (Matt. 19:29).

We are the Israel in exile. You can listen to Isaiah's words and Jesus's words, and understand either that you are condemned or healed. It's up to you whether you "listen and understand" or not.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by Jenyar
[We are the Israel in exile.

But WHY would you see yourself as being in exile from God? That's because YOU choose to be separate from God. It's YOUR loss!

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman

But WHY would you see yourself as being in exile from God? That's because YOU choose to be separate from God. It's YOUR loss!

Sin puts us in exile - sin is our prison. The history of Israel can be seen as a metaphor for our life on earth. The promised land is God's kingdom.

But if you accept that your life is in this world only and there is no God outside it; if you choose to be native to it, you are a foreigner to God's kingdom. Maybe not to your own god, but definitely to the God of Israel. That much is clear from the Bible.

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Sin puts us in exile - sin is our prison. The history of Israel can be seen as a metaphor for our life on earth. The promised land is God's kingdom.

But if you accept that your life is in this world only and there is no God outside it; if you choose to be native to it, you are a foreigner to God's kingdom. Maybe not to your own god, but definitely to the God of Israel. That much is clear from the Bible.

Jesus himself introduced sin to the world, at least, that's his claim in John 15:22:

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

I believe the name for that is entrapment.

As for the god of Israel, he is nothing but an insecure tribal deity whose followers have aggressively promoted him as the "One True God" in an attempt to spread his memes as far and wide as possible. If you're not an Israelite, why would you care about being separated from the petty and jealous god of Israel?

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Nehushta
Jesus himself introduced sin to the world, at least, that's his claim in John 15:22:

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

I believe the name for that is entrapment.

Major misunderstanding. Read it in context:

22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin. 23He who hates me hates my Father as well. 24If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.' [Psalms 35:19; 69:4]

Now see it in the light of what Jesus also said: (Matthew 9:13)
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Jesus exposed the true nature of sin. Before him, the only thing people had to judge by was the Laws of Moses, but it was these laws that condemned us for our distance from God. So when God came near to us - in the flesh - and we still rejected Him, it became evident that sin was far more insidious than anybody thought. Sin is in fact rejecting God to His face, rejecting his Word of salvation. So it was with His words that Jesus brought the two-eged sword that would separate sin and righteousness (Heb. 4:12). Now another verse becomes clear:

Matthew 12:31
And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Jesus was born from the Spirit of God, which He poured out on all who accept God as their saviour. Rejecting Jesus is the same as rejecting God, and that is the essence of sin.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

As for the god of Israel, he is nothing but an insecure tribal deity whose followers have aggressively promoted him as the "One True God" in an attempt to spread his memes as far and wide as possible. If you're not an Israelite, why would you care about being separated from the petty and jealous god of Israel?

Not everybody who is born from Israel is an Israelite (Rom.9:6). As I have told you: separation from God is no longer just a legal or political separation. God is jealous of me, because He feels possessive about me. I can't imagine anything more comforting. That is why I care about being separated from Him.

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Major misunderstanding. Read it in context:

22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin. 23He who hates me hates my Father as well. 24If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.' [Psalms 35:19; 69:4]

Now see it in the light of what Jesus also said: (Matthew 9:13)
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

It seems to me that nearly everything that is reported to have come out of Jesus' mouth had a double meaning - not unlike a two-edged sword, eh?

Since Jesus was the Serpent, he was indeed responsible for sin being in the world - at least, according to the OT story. And he is telling the truth when he says he didn't come to call the righteous, but the sinners - but call them where? Not to repentence, since he was obviously leading them even further astray. Jesus was sent as a gin and a snare to the idolatrous Jews who God had such a difficult time keeping in line (see Isaiah 8:13-15). And remember also - Jesus holds the keys to hell and death (see Revelations 1:18)! I'm not sure I'd follow his lead if I were you. You'll most likely end up as kindling for that big bonfire in the sky for failing to know who Jesus really was and to act accordingly (see Matthew 7:21-23). One clue to this is that broad path you currently tread, which leads to the wide gate through which you'll no doubt eventually enter (one third of the world is Christian - there's no broader path than that!). But hey - don't say I didn't try to warn you (see Ezekiel 3:20)!

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Nehushta
It seems to me that nearly everything that is reported to have come out of Jesus' mouth had a double meaning - not unlike a two-edged sword, eh?

Not double meaning, double effect. It can cut you and your enemy equally. "By the same words that you judge, you will also be judged by", remember?

Romans 13:4
For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Ephesians 6:17
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Since Jesus was the Serpent, he was indeed responsible for sin being in the world - at least, according to the OT story. And he is telling the truth when he says he didn't come to call the righteous, but the sinners - but call them where? Not to repentence, since he was obviously leading them even further astray.

Jesus wasn't the serpent. The serpent was the serpent. Satan was later associated with it, but not Jesus. Jesus was associated with the bronze serpent raised by Moses. The same image in different hands, see? Life vs. Death.

Repentance means turning away from sin that leads to death and towards God who leads to life. Jesus calls sinners to turn them to God.

Jesus was sent as a gin and a snare to the idolatrous Jews who God had such a difficult time keeping in line (see Isaiah 8:13-15). And remember also - Jesus holds the keys to hell and death (see Revelations 1:18)! I'm not sure I'd follow his lead if I were you.

God did not have difficulty keeping his people in line - they had difficulty staying faithful to God. There's a big difference. "Keeping them in line" meant correcting them, and that was all the prophets ever tried to do. You can't make someone accept love (or salvation).

Jesus hold the keys because he took them from the clutches of death itself - which is exactly why it's comforting to know Him - He did also say, "do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last." (Rev.1:17). If He has the keys, He can release its prisoners. The question is, when He unlocks the gates of death, will you dare to come out and face your Saviour - or will your rejection of Him be just the more condemning?

You'll most likely end up as kindling for that big bonfire in the sky for failing to know who Jesus really was and to act accordingly (see Matthew 7:21-23). One clue to this is that broad path you currently tread, which leads to the wide gate through which you'll no doubt eventually enter (one third of the world is Christian - there's no broader path than that!). But hey - don't say I didn't try to warn you (see Ezekiel 3:20)!

Right, you use the scripture but you don't read it: not all of those Christians will be saved. The message in Matt. 7 is "by their fruit will they be known". You can't fake knowing Jesus, because He knows you. It isn't majority or minority that makes something right or wrong. Read the rest of Matt.7. If you build your life on the wrong foundation, the rest won't make much difference.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

It's a pretty narrow path we are presented with.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Jesus wasn't the serpent. The serpent was the serpent. Satan was later associated with it, but not Jesus. Jesus was associated with the bronze serpent raised by Moses. The same image in different hands, see? Life vs. Death.
----------
M*W: The "serpent" was a symbol of wisdom and healing. Also, the "serpent" represents god in some cultures. So, the "serpent" does symbolize Jesus. Jenyar, it's just the xians who disassociate the "serpent" from Jesus because they added the "negativity" to the symbol.
----------
Repentance means turning away from sin that leads to death and towards God who leads to life. Jesus calls sinners to turn them to God.
----------
M*W: "Repentance" means "reimbursing" the body with the One Spirit of God. Jesus called "sinners" (those whose spirit has vacated) to "repent" or to "receive the One Spirit of God" within them.
----------
God did not have difficulty keeping his people in line - they had difficulty staying faithful to God. There's a big difference. "Keeping them in line" meant correcting them, and that was all the prophets ever tried to do. You can't make someone accept love (or salvation).
----------
M*W: Your connotation of "God" is misleading. The One Spirit of God, or pure positive energy, didn't "keep people in line" per se, but with the inclusion of the One Spirit of God (energy) they were able to visualize peace, cameraderie, unity, etc. "Keeping them in line" did not mean to "correct them." It was not "God" who kept the people in line, it was the people who more or less "kept God in line." No, you're right, you cannot "make someone accept" the One Spirit of God = positive energy = eternal life = energy that never dies. These folks will still have a vacuum or worse negativity.
----------
Jesus hold the keys because he took them from the clutches of death itself - which is exactly why it's comforting to know Him - He did also say, "do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last." (Rev.1:17).
----------
M*W: Jesus TAUGHT that the "key" was eternal life of the spirit. To attain this state we must be open to the One Spirit of God. There is nothing to be afraid of. Positive spiritual energy was there from the beginning of the Big Bang to beyond the next Big Bang. The One Spirit of God has no beginning and no end. Life may change, but it will ever end.
----------
If He has the keys, He can release its prisoners. The question is, when He unlocks the gates of death, will you dare to come out and face your Saviour - or will your rejection of Him be just the more condemning?
----------
M*W: The "key" was what Jesus TAUGHT. The lesson is to believe in the One Spirit of God. There are no "gates". There is no "savior." The only "rejection" is the vacuous state of the positive force of energy = God.
----------
Right, you use the scripture but you don't read it: not all of those Christians will be saved. The message in Matt. 7 is "by their fruit will they be known".
----------
M*W: The only way anyone can have "fruit" is through the force of positive energy. The "fruit" of the One Spirit of God = spiritual energy.
----------
You can't fake knowing Jesus, because He knows you. It isn't majority or minority that makes something right or wrong. Read the rest of Matt.7. If you build your life on the wrong foundation, the rest won't make much difference.
----------
M*W: Let me rephrase: "You can't fake knowing what Jesus TAUGHT...". Building your life on the foundation that Jesus had to die to save you IS the wrong foundation.
----------
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. It's a pretty narrow path we are presented with.
----------
M*W: Eternal life of the spirit = pure positive energy = God. THIS is what Jesus tried to TEACH, but his followers created the myth that Jesus was the savior, but it's the pure positive energy we call God that sustains us and the universe around us.

Jenyar, I know you mean well, but you are not interpreting correctly what Jesus taught. This is so unfortunate because I know there may be a lot of human beings out there in this world upon whom you have influence. By focusing on Jesus, you are denying the One Spirit of God. The message isn't that complicated. We were created by energy, energy lives through us, energy never dies, therefore, our soul is eternal. Call it God, who cares?

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by Jenyar
It is true in the sense that Jesus made God's salvation clear and unambiguous. You are either on God's side or you are not. I can't imagine even Elijah saying that and not causing division. Remember what Simeon said when Jesus was consecrated in Jerusalem: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed."

You really have to consider what kind of division and what kind of peace. By revealing a person's allegiance, making it visible, it must necessarily be approved or rejected, and that is frequently a choice between peace with God or peace with the world.

It sounds to me like Jesus was planning an overthrow of the ruling monarch and was looking for recruits to join his army (whoever is not for us is against us, some who are first in the kingdom of God will be last and the last will be first, I am the first and the last, etc.). It puts me in mind of the Scar character in The Lion King when he sang this song:

I never thought hyenas essential
They're crude and unspeakably plain
But maybe they've a glimmer of potential
If allied to my vision and brain

I know that your powers of retention
Are as wet as a warthog's backside
But thick as you are, pay attention
My words are a matter of pride

It's clear from your vacant expressions
The lights are not all on upstairs
But we're talking kings and successions
Even you can't be caught unawares

So prepare for a chance of a lifetime
Be prepared for sensational news
A shining new era
Is tiptoeing nearer
And where do we feature?
Just listen to teacher

I know it sounds sordid
But you'll be rewarded
When at last I am given my dues
And injustice deliciously squared
Be prepared!

It's great that we'll soon be connected
With a king who'll be all-time adored

Of course, quid pro quo, you're expected
To take certain duties on board
The future is littered with prizes
And though I'm the main addressee
The point that I must emphasize is
You won't get a sniff without me!

So prepare for the coup of the century
(Oooh!)
Be prepared for the murkiest scam
(Oooh... La! La! La!)
Meticulous planning
(We'll have food!)
Tenacity spanning
(Lots of food)
Decades of denial
(We repeat)
Is simply why I'll
(Endless meat)
Be king undisputed
(Aaaaaaah...)
Respected, saluted
(...aaaaaaah...)
And seen for the wonder I am
(...aaaaaaah!)
Yes, my teeth and ambitions are bared
(Oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo)
Be prepared!

Yes, our teeth and ambitions are bared -
Be prepared!

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman

M*W: The "serpent" was a symbol of wisdom and healing. Also, the "serpent" represents god in some cultures. So, the "serpent" does symbolize Jesus. Jenyar, it's just the xians who disassociate the "serpent" from Jesus because they added the "negativity" to the symbol.

Its original connotations come from the Hebrew Bible, not from the Christians. Christians merely continued the development of meaning that already started in Genesis. It is interesting that the Jews had already formed a concept of salvation by association with the serpent. The serpent represents knowledge or shrewdness, which is neither "good" nor "bad", until it is used for good or bad.

"According to the Rabbis, Nahash must be identified with Jesse, who was called 'Nahash' [serpent] because, being himself sinless, he died in fulfilment of the sentence of death upon all humanity consequent upon the temptation of the serpent (Shab. 55b)"
- JewishEncyclopedia: serpent

Jewish legend regarded the serpent as being selected by Satan as his tool because of its cunning nature. (And Satan spoke to the serpent: "Be my instrument, and through thy mouth will I utter a word which shall enable thee to seduce man").

The negativity associated with the serpent lies in the deception of Adam and Eve, not in the image itself.

M*W: "Repentance" means "reimbursing" the body with the One Spirit of God. Jesus called "sinners" (those whose spirit has vacated) to "repent" or to "receive the One Spirit of God" within them.

You are, as always, halfway there. But what does it mean to receive God's Spirit? Will He give it to anyone?

The full meaning of repentance, according to Jewish doctrine, is clearly indicated in the term "teshubah" (lit. "return"; from the verb). This implies:
(1) All transgression and sin are the natural and inevitable consequence of man's straying from God and His laws.
(2) It is man's destiny, and therefore his duty, to be with God as God is with him.
(3) It is within the power of every man to redeem himself from sin by resolutely breaking away from it and turning to God, whose loving-kindness is ever extended to the returning sinner. "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon" (Isa. 4:7).
(4) Because "there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not" (Eccl. 7:20; I Kings 8:46), every mortal stands in need of this insistence on his "return" to God.

- JewishEncyclopedia: repentance (where they also say there is no repentance after death, when you will have to accept God's judgment on your life.)

M*W: Your connotation of "God" is misleading. The One Spirit of God, or pure positive energy, didn't "keep people in line" per se, but with the inclusion of the One Spirit of God (energy) they were able to visualize peace, cameraderie, unity, etc. "Keeping them in line" did not mean to "correct them." It was not "God" who kept the people in line, it was the people who more or less "kept God in line." No, you're right, you cannot "make someone accept" the One Spirit of God = positive energy = eternal life = energy that never dies. These folks will still have a vacuum or worse negativity.

God frequently asks Israel to return to Him, and comments on their stubborness because they don't listen.

Jeremiah 4
1 "If you will return, O Israel,
return to me,"
declares the LORD.
"If you put your detestable idols out of my sight
and no longer go astray,
2 and if in a truthful, just and righteous way
you swear, 'As surely as the LORD lives,' [which is a declaration of faith]
then the nations will be blessed by him
and in him they will glory."

Jeremiah 13:11
For as a belt is bound around a man's waist, so I bound the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah to me,' declares the LORD , 'to be my people for my renown and praise and honor. But they have not listened.'

Keeping them in line meant giving them laws that represented God's authority. But they could not folow them. When they visizualized peace, cameraderie and unity it always came out in prophecy. Prophecy about the coming messiah. Why do you think is that? Nobody ever reaches that state by themseves. It is only by God's grace that it can ever happen. The result of this peace is recognizing God, not the other way around. So you see, God made it possible to recognize him even in our sinful state. He brought his salvation so close to us that we only have to look at Jesus to see Him.

M*W: Jesus TAUGHT that the "key" was eternal life of the spirit. To attain this state we must be open to the One Spirit of God. There is nothing to be afraid of. Positive spiritual energy was there from the beginning of the Big Bang to beyond the next Big Bang. The One Spirit of God has no beginning and no end. Life may change, but it will ever end.

Compare Jesus' words with Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

But life for us does end. We are mortal. You can't just dismiss that as something of no consequence. Life from the Spirit has to come from God.

M*W: The "key" was what Jesus TAUGHT. The lesson is to believe in the One Spirit of God. There are no "gates". There is no "savior." The only "rejection" is the vacuous state of the positive force of energy = God.

Deuteronomy 32:15
Jeshurun [Jeshurun means 'the upright one', that is, Israel] grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.

To reject God is to reject that which gives you life. It leads to more that just a "vacuous state" - it's fatal. Just believing in the "One Spirit of God" is not enough to know who He is or what He expects from you. Can you say:

"The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!" (2 Samuel 22:47), or "Praise be to the Lord, to God our Savior, who daily bears our burdens." (Psalm 68:19)

M*W: The only way anyone can have "fruit" is through the force of positive energy. The "fruit" of the One Spirit of God = spiritual energy.

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

M*W: Let me rephrase: "You can't fake knowing what Jesus TAUGHT...". Building your life on the foundation that Jesus had to die to save you IS the wrong foundation.

The call is to return to God by accepting His forgiveness. Jesus is the instrument of that forgiveness. So I base my foundation on the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - my God is no different than theirs: Isaiah 43:11
"I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior". If the God you testify about isn't either, then we should have this common ground to stand on. But if you think Israel were worshipping the wrong God, we will disagree about everything else.

M*W: Eternal life of the spirit = pure positive energy = God. THIS is what Jesus tried to TEACH, but his followers created the myth that Jesus was the savior, but it's the pure positive energy we call God that sustains us and the universe around us.

Please quote me the verses where you get this teaching of Jesus from, so that I can agree with you.

May I ask, if we are by nature divine, then how does our ignorance override it so easily?

Jenyar, I know you mean well, but you are not interpreting correctly what Jesus taught. This is so unfortunate because I know there may be a lot of human beings out there in this world upon whom you have influence. By focusing on Jesus, you are denying the One Spirit of God. The message isn't that complicated. We were created by energy, energy lives through us, energy never dies, therefore, our soul is eternal. Call it God, who cares?

I have my life in the Spirit, but it cannot remain there. It has to overflow with fruit of his Spirit, God's Spirit. So don't worry, even though our approaches differ, the outcome should be the same.

I care that you equate our soul with God in the same breath. The consequences of God having a separate will from ours is of overwhelming significance, and I want to be clear whether you believe that or not.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Jenyar
I care that you equate our soul with God in the same breath. The consequences of God having a separate will from ours is of overwhelming significance, and I want to be clear whether you believe that or not.

I believe god has it's own will, an eternal will that is far mores superior and powerfull to humans, and also very different than humans. God specifically tells us in the bible and Quran that he breathed of his own spirit in us...he never says that he breathed his own will. I believe that the spirit of god is in perfect proportions. When god breathed of its own spirit in us, he gave us the potential to be perfect spirits, yet we have limited will to work with, and that's why life gets called the steep path in the Quran. When the will is limited to the potential of being, one must strive to be all they could be, and that's the true Jihad or striving. It's applying our finite will to reach our infinite potential. The use of our will power will dictate how the proportions of our spirit is molded by our lives. Human's life is thus a continous balancing act to proportion our spirit per our deeds. Those who keep the proportion as pure as possible and as close to the original design have succeded...Those who follow their own whims, Satan, ect, are actively screwing up the proportions of their souls. They are actively decreasing abilities to love and replacing them with hate, carving up their ability to forgive, and replacing it with vengence, flushing down their abilities to understand and piling up the ignorance. We are actively transforming ourselves in this life, and the goods of this life including house, kids, job, ect, are but a veil covering up what is really going on with our spirit internally. When we die, the veil will be removed and everyone will learn of their new proportions and what their own doings have gained them. God with his eternal will and power will eventually judge us in outmost mercy, compassion, and justice on whether we have abused or took care of the spirit gem we where assigned. People who are going to be thrown in hell have earned their way. Sin is earned and god will show us what our own hands have earned us.

 

[Jenyar]

I believe god has it's own will, an eternal will that is far mores superior and powerfull to humans, and also very different than humans. God specifically tells us in the bible and Quran that he breathed of his own spirit in us...he never says that he breathed his own will.

I believe that too, but what do we tell Medicine*Woman when she says:

M*W: I don't see our Creator as having a "will" nor a "personality." Those attributions are what "WE" have given it. The God I know and understand cannot make choices. The only choice is to be or not to be. God cannot make decisions. God cannot do anything except weigh the positive with the negative as in an electrical force. Holy is another word used for "positive." Unholy would be "negative." That is all God really comprehends--the alpha and the omega.

She trusts you, maybe you could help her understand that she does not truly recognize Jesus or Muhammed as prophets if she believes something contrary to what they said.

I agree with you, Flores, God did not breathe his own will into us. He gave us a will of our own, in the image of his. The Jihad is against our sinful natures.

We are actively transforming ourselves in this life, and the goods of this life including house, kids, job, ect, are but a veil covering up what is really going on with our spirit internally. When we die, the veil will be removed and everyone will learn of their new proportions and what their own doings have gained them. God with his eternal will and power will eventually judge us in outmost mercy, compassion, and justice on whether we have abused or took care of the spirit gem we where assigned. People who are going to be thrown in hell have earned their way. Sin is earned and god will show us what our own hands have earned us.

The Bible calls this "striving towards perfection". We strain to see the spiritual sides of our nature, but it as as if we are looking into a blurry mirror. What Jesus came to do was remove the veil, so that we could see God's salvation in spite of our sins. God's mercy came so near to us, that we don't have to reach far to take hold of it. We only have to reach beyond ourselves.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by Jenyar
I believe that too, but what do we tell Medicine*Woman when she says:

She trusts you, maybe you could help her understand that she does not truly recognize Jesus or Muhammed as prophets if she believes something contrary to what they said.

I agree with you, Flores, God did not breathe his own will into us. He gave us a will of our own, in the image of his. The Jihad is against our sinful natures.

The Bible calls this "striving towards perfection". We strain to see the spiritual sides of our nature, but it as as if we are looking into a blurry mirror. What Jesus came to do was remove the veil, so that we could see God's salvation in spite of our sins. God's mercy came so near to us, that we don't have to reach far to take hold of it. We only have to reach beyond ourselves.

Jenyar, DO NOT attempt to take sides against me by using Flores. This shows just how selfish you are. You are a liar. What's a matter, you feeling so defeated that you need reinforcements for your cause? Yes, I trust Flores, but you don't need to tell Flores to help me understand anyone. I am perfectly capable of my own understanding even if it doesn't agree with yours! You believe what you want to believe, and I'll do the same. Your devisive xian tactics are just an example of your entire religion. There may be some aspects of Islam that I know and will agree with. I don't know the all of Islam, but I do know the people of Islam. One thing I do know about Islam is I believe in their God, not the god of xianity. Unfortunately for you, there's only ONE GOD-ALLAH! The Qur'an is more truthful than the Bible. So, maybe I'm more Muslim than any other religion. I actually envy the women in the burkas. I'd love to wear a burka on a bad hair day.

Jenyar, I am so tired of your lies. You think I don't recognize Jesus as a Prophet! Jesus was a PROPHET AND NOT A SAVIOR!!!!!! Get your lies straight if you're gonna tell them!

What I personally believe has NOTHING to do with any man-made religion. If some ideas cross over, so be it. It's not for YOU to judge, but being the xian that you are, you JUDGE EVERYONE!!!!!

The life we have in us is the life God put in us. The spiritual energy, the passion, the drive, the desire, the heat, the light, the aura, the interconnectedness with everything in the universe. This is my God. Sometimes I can agree with what you say, but then you always include Jesus the savior and that is where I disagree. Jesus was a Rabbi and a Prophet, but he was no savior.

Your manipulation of others to promote your cause is the oldest trick in the book. What are you now, a magician? You're pathetic.

 

[Jenyar]

One thing I do know about Islam is I believe in their God, not the god of xianity.

Muslims believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is a God who chooses laws, and who belong to Him. You believe in "The God [who] cannot make choices. The only choice is to be or not to be. God cannot make decisions." Tell me how this is the same God?