Jesus saves, and at today's prices, that's a miracle

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Nehushta
That reminds me - the "root of Jesse" is also sometimes referred to as the "serpent's root" (see Isaiah 14:29). It seems there's quite a bit of serpent imagery connected with Jesus - why is that?

Are you referring to the bronze serpent of Moses raised to cure the Israelites of snakebites? It shows how Jesus would become one of us to save us. How he would die to conquer death.

The Jewish Targum also applies the passage to the Messiah
"for out of the children's children of Jesse shall come forth the Messiah, and his works shall be among you as a flying serpent.''

Isaiah 14 concerns the destruction of Ahaz and Assyria, and the Philistines thought it would be a good thing for them:

28 This oracle came in the year King Ahaz died:
29 Do not rejoice, all you Philistines,
that the rod that struck you is broken;
from the root of that snake will spring up a viper,
its fruit will be a fiery flying serpent.

Who was Ahaz?
2 Kings 16
2 Ahaz was twenty years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem sixteen years. Unlike David his father, he did not do what was right in the eyes of the LORD his God. 3 He walked in the ways of the kings of Israel and even sacrificed his son in the fire...

You will understand it if you follow its history. The snake they thought were crushed came back to bite them:

2 Kings 18
Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah became king.
He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done.... He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.) (take note: even as the instrument of God's salvation, Jesus does not replace God. This is what the real serpent - the antichrist - wishes to do).

He rebelled against the king of Assyria and did not serve him. 8 From watchtower to fortified city, he defeated the Philistines, as far as Gaza and its territory.

But in King Hezekiah's fourth year, Shalmaneser king of Assyria marched against Samaria and laid siege to it. 10 At the end of three years the Assyrians took it. So Samaria was captured in Hezekiah's sixth year.

11 The king of Assyria deported Israel to Assyria and settled them in Halah, in Gozan on the Habor River and in towns of the Medes. 12 This happened because they had not obeyed the LORD their God, but had violated his covenant-all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded. They neither listened to the commands nor carried them out.

So God established a new kingdom. He destroyed Israel but still kept His promise to them, so that its enemies would not have reason to rejoice:
"The LORD has established Zion,
and in her his afflicted people will find refuge." (Is.14:32)

Um, how about Israel?

God rules over the Israel He called and established. You see in Isaiah exactly what happened when it tried to rule itself.

But Jesus was never an anointed king - not in the usual, accepted sense at least.

It is God who anoints.

Revelations says a lot of really bizarre things, like the part about the great reptilian deceiver casting a third of the stars of heaven down to earth. It has been estimated that approximately one-third of the world's population considers itself Christian - do you think the fallen stars might symbolize deceived Christians in this allegory?

Read up about it.

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by okinrus
As Jenyar point out the word rapture is not in the bible. I can't give you any arguments against it simply because those who believe in the rapture are so divided between pre-tribulation etc. that it's a real mess. I believe that there will be salvation to the end. More so because once people see the anti-christ for what he really is some will reject him.

Could it possibly be that the one who has been presented as the Christ is actually this "anti-christ" (ante-christ?) that Christians have been on the lookout for during the past 2000 years? Who else has even had the potential for deceiving the entire world?

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Nehushta
Could it possibly be that the one who has been presented as the Christ is actually this "anti-christ" (ante-christ?) that Christians have been on the lookout for during the past 2000 years? Who else has even had the potential for deceiving the entire world?

No, sorry. The Bible says quite clearly who the antichrist is:

2 John 1:7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Are you referring to the bronze serpent of Moses raised to cure the Israelites of snakebites? It shows how Jesus would become one of us to save us. How he would die to conquer death.

Yes - that's one of the references I'm talking about. And I see you've already stolen my thunder by posting the 2 Kings 18 passage. D'oh! But that is exactly why Christians shouldn't be worshipping Jesus as God (as most of them seem to do). Most of them seem to ignore that part of the story though - I'm actually surprised you even addressed it. (By the way, as for Jesus becoming one of us, see Isaiah 14:10.)

2 Kings 18
Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah became king.
He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done.... He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.) (take note: even as the instrument of God's salvation, Jesus does not replace God. This is what the real serpent - the antichrist - wishes to do).

But as I said before, most Christians do worship Jesus as God. By the way, a great, great, etc., grandmother of Jesus was named Nehushta - doesn't that seem kind of odd to you?

Read up about it.

That wasn't an answer. I was asking what you thought about what the "fallen stars" allegory might represent. I'm kind of hoping for some real thought here - not just what's been drilled into you in Sunday School.

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Nehushta
Yes - that's one of the references I'm talking about. And I see you've already stolen my thunder by posting the 2 Kings 18 passage. D'oh! But that is exactly why Christians shouldn't be worshipping Jesus as God (as most of them seem to do). Most of them seem to ignore that part of the story though - I'm actually surprised you even addressed it. (By the way, as for Jesus becoming one of us, see Isaiah 14:10.)

You have to distinguish between prophecy and the event itself, though. As I said, Isaiah 14 refers to the death of the king of Babylon, who was an oppressor. He stands in opposition to the branch of Jesse.

And Jesus is a mystery of God. While there is no doubt that he was human, there is also no doubt that God did not regard him as such. Jesus revealed God's salvation in a fully human form. It's like finding three lines, and finding when you trace them they are all connected to form a triangle. You can't deny there's three lines in different positions, but you can't deny they form (and are) a triangle either.

I have devised a little exercise that helps to understand the difficulty we have. Try to imagine the whole alphabet in your head as you would a word like "alphabet". I can only get to 'h' before I start to lose sight of 'a'. God said He is the alpha and the omega, but we can't even hold the metaphor in our heads, never mind God himself. I figure part of the problem in both cases is that we are visually oriented. Even if you can recite the alphabet, you have to visualize a page with it written out before you can keep it in your head. Even the Bible can only give an incomplete picture of God in its thousand pages. We have to be content with words like Father, Son and Spirit even though we know they are all connected to the idea of "God".

But as I said before, most Christians do worship Jesus as God. By the way, a great, great, etc., grandmother of Jesus was named Nehushta - doesn't that seem kind of odd to you?

I would seem prophetic.

That wasn't an answer. I was asking what you thought about what the "fallen stars" allegory might represent. I'm kind of hoping for some real thought here - not just what's been drilled into you in Sunday School.

There's a really interesting site by Seventh Day Adventists (they're generally very interested in the subject) that makes a study of revelations in the Bible (Revelation, the Story of Redemption), but they had nothing specific about the stars. It seems the dragon is persuading those stars to become like himself and descend to earth, but it happens before the child is born, so I doubt it could mean Christians. It might refer to his angels (see verse 9). Or it could just refer to everybody who would be drawn to him - whether Christian or not.

A "third of the stars" is also mentioned in Rev.8, where they turn dark at the fourth trumpet, i.e. they stopped shining. That could refer to the effects of sin.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Jenyar
No, sorry. The Bible says quite clearly who the antichrist is:

2 John 1:7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

This seems to imply that anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus existed is the anti-christ, and mere believe that Jesus existed must be pro-christ.

Thank god, even by your standard Jenyars, I'm not an anti-christ, because I believe that Jesus came in the flesh out of a virgin birth as a messanger in a thread of many messangers of god to show the truth to humanity.

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by Jenyar
I would seem prophetic.

Indeed. Nehushta was the mother of Jeconiah (aka, Jehoiachin, Coniah, or Jechonias), of the cursed branch from which no king would ever again descend (see Jeremiah 22:28-30, and also Isaiah 14:19). Obviously the Messiah couldn't come from that line, since a messiah would be expected to rule on the throne of David. One is forced to conclude then that Jesus could not have been the Messiah, since he was supposedly descended from that line. At some later point, one might naturally begin to wonder exactly what he was, if not the Messiah...

 

[Nehushta]

okinrus,

And you are just has oblivious to the being called truth.

If Jesus is "Truth," then there should be no instance where we can pin a falsehood on him - do you agree? I will presume you do, so please explain the following deceptions from this being called "truth":

If Jesus is Truth, then why did Jesus deliberately lead his disciples to believe that John the Baptist was Elijah after the Baptist was already killed (see Matthew 17:10-13), when John himself had so clearly denied such a thing while he was still alive (see John 1:19-21)?

If Jesus is Truth, then why did he speak in parables so as to deliberately keep some of his listeners from understanding and being saved (see Matthew 13:10-15)? Could it be that if they understood his true message, they would realize that he was the opposite of what he presented himself to be, and thus be saved from his clutches?

If Jesus is Truth, then why did he tell would-be disciples that they must hate their families if they wanted to be his disciples (see Luke 14:26)? Why did he say his mission was to cause division within familes (see Luke 12:49-53)? And why did he promise his disciples a hundredfold return on everything they gave up for him (which included their wives and children, and other family members), plus everlasting life (see Matthew 19:29)? Of course, he didn't mention where they would be spending their everlasting life, did he?

If Jesus is Truth, then why did he lie to his brothers in John 7:8 and say that he wasn't going yet to the feast of Tabernacles, but then in John 7:10, he went there in secret after they left? Could it be that lies like this are what kept his brothers from believing in him (see John 7:5)?

If Jesus is Truth, then why did he direct two of his disciples to steal an ass and her colt for him to ride into Jerusalem on, so that this would appear to be another fulfillment of prophecy (see Matthew 21:1-7)? If he had indeed been the fulfillment of prophecy, it seems to me he wouldn't have had to go to such ridiculous lengths to make it happen.

If Jesus is Truth, then why did he tell his disciples in Luke 22:36-38 to sell their clothes if necessary, and buy a sword if they had none, and when they showed him they had two swords, he said it would be enough. But later, when Simon Peter actually used one of the swords to cut off the right ear of the high priest's servant who came to arrest Jesus, Jesus chastised him, telling him to put the sword away and reminding him that he must drink from the cup which his father had given him (see John 18:10,11). He deliberately set up the whole sword scenario to begin with, so why the contradictory advice from this epitome of truth and light whenever there are other people around to witness his piety? In Luke, he used this opportunity he had created to "prove" he was the son of God by healing the servant's ear (see Luke 22:49-51). Was it all just a part of his dark charade? Were his unfortunate disciples merely ignorant pawns in his chess game?

I know that Christians will always find a way to explain the unexplainable, because they'd rather die than give up the illusions they've spent a lifetime creating for themselves and for posterity - but in their heart of hearts, they must see all these things too - don't they?

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Nehushta
Indeed. Nehushta was the mother of Jeconiah (aka, Jehoiachin, Coniah, or Jechonias), of the cursed branch from which no king would ever again descend (see Jeremiah 22:28-30, and also Isaiah 14:19). Obviously the Messiah couldn't come from that line, since a messiah would be expected to rule on the throne of David. One is forced to conclude then that Jesus could not have been the Messiah, since he was supposedly descended from that line. At some later point, one might naturally begin to wonder exactly what he was, if not the Messiah...

It is indeed interesting, because Jesus never sat on the throne of David, even though He was the king appointed by God (the Messiah). And that he was cast out of his tomb - even rejected by death - just like Isaiah 14 says:

"18 All the kings of the nations lie in state,
each in his own tomb.
19 But you are cast out of your tomb
like a rejected branch;

The rejection of Israel led to the rejection of their appointed king, but by what they rejected they would be saved. Things have come full circle:

Samuel 8
6 But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD . 7 And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king.

1 Samuel 10:19
But you have now rejected your God, who saves you out of all your calamities and distresses. And you have said, 'No, set a king over us.'

Can you see now why Jesus said in the words of King David: My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? To make it clear that he was rejected as an earthly, purely human king because of his bloodline - if Jesus had used his power to come down from the cross He would certainly have been made king. Instead, Jesus inherited His kingship straight from God - anointed by God (= Christ). But God answered:

Isaiah 41:9
I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, 'You are my servant'; I have chosen you and have not rejected you.

1 Peter 2:4
As you come to him, the living Stone–rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him– 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

God moved the kingdom from earth and established it in heaven, where we can have part in it by God's approval alone. The prophecy about the Messiah says David's throne will be established forever. Yet the Jews haven't had a king for over two thousand years. Coincidence?

 

[Jenyar]

If Jesus is Truth, then why did Jesus deliberately lead his disciples to believe that John the Baptist was Elijah after the Baptist was already killed (see Matthew 17:10-13), when John himself had so clearly denied such a thing while he was still alive (see John 1:19-21)?

No, John was not Elijah reincarnated. The Old Testament does not teach reincarnation.

Luke 1, the angel tells John's father:
17"And it is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord,"

also:
2 Kings 1
8 They replied, "He was a man with a garment of hair and with a leather belt around his waist."
The king said, "That was Elijah the Tishbite."

Matthew 3
4John's clothes were made of camel's hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey.

If Jesus is Truth, then why did he speak in parables so as to deliberately keep some of his listeners from understanding and being saved (see Matthew 13:10-15)? Could it be that if they understood his true message, they would realize that he was the opposite of what he presented himself to be, and thus be saved from his clutches?

If you read Isaiah 6 (which Jesus quoted), you will see his reason to be similar to the act of reaping. As in Isaiah 6 only a remnant would remain, in Matt. 13 Jesus implies only the remnant will understand. My own interpretation of this is that only people who want to learn about their faith would be able to learn from the parables (v.12 "Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance"), while people who disbelieve or mock the faith will find it nonsense ("Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him").

The bottom line is that if you don't accept ("hear") what Jesus said plainly, neither will you be able accept ("understand") what He said through parables. But nobody will stop you from doing either.

If Jesus is Truth, then why did he tell would-be disciples that they must hate their families if they wanted to be his disciples (see Luke 14:26)? Why did he say his mission was to cause division within familes (see Luke 12:49-53)? And why did he promise his disciples a hundredfold return on everything they gave up for him (which included their wives and children, and other family members), plus everlasting life (see Matthew 19:29)? Of course, he didn't mention where they would be spending their everlasting life, did he?

Jesus knew his message was a controversial one, and that someone willing to follow him stood the chance of losing everything else (as any orthodox Muslim who converted to Christianity would be able to tell you). Jesus made certain they knew that risk, but also told them that what they gained was incomparably more.

What Jesus promises with "eternal life" is clear from his line of reasoning. Jesus told the young man, "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments," and he said he did, but he still lacked something. Wherupon Jesus told him "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." The implication was that certainty required sacrifice on his part - and the sacrifice was the same one Jesus made: to give your life over to God and accept his salvation through Christ.

If Jesus is Truth, then why did he lie to his brothers in John 7:8 and say that he wasn't going yet to the feast of Tabernacles, but then in John 7:10, he went there in secret after they left? Could it be that lies like this are what kept his brothers from believing in him (see John 7:5)?

The key is right there in verse 10: Jesus did not go publicly (as his brothers wanted him to). "Not until halfway through the Feast did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach." (v.14).

Jesus told them "the right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right", i.e. they could expect him at any time, but He would decide the time himself. At the time of their prompting, Jesus was "not yet" going to the Feast and evidently wasn't ready (or just didn't know when) to begin his public ministry yet. After they were gone, he was free to go there in secret and wait for the appointed time.

If you think about it, this is the same thing Jesus told us. He said He was coming again; only God knows the appointed time, but we should expect Him at any moment. He knew what people were saying about him at the Feast; He knows what we are saying about Him now.

If Jesus is Truth, then why did he direct two of his disciples to steal an ass and her colt for him to ride into Jerusalem on, so that this would appear to be another fulfillment of prophecy (see Matthew 21:1-7)? If he had indeed been the fulfillment of prophecy, it seems to me he wouldn't have had to go to such ridiculous lengths to make it happen.

The colt/foal (there was probably only one animal involved, as Mark, Luke and John indicate) was ready for him. The fact that Jesus knew where it was and how it would be found means that it was prepared for him - and since you don't believe in miracles, why don't you think the owner prepared it himself? That the words "God needs them" sufficed, means the owner (if he or anybody else even asked, since it doesn't seem so) released them willingly at such a request. Personally I don't see why God did not provide them just like He did the ram when Abraham almost sacrificed his son. God can't "steal" something He already owns. And there is no prescription how prophecy should be fulfilled. The significance was not lost on the crowd.

If Jesus is Truth, then why did he tell his disciples in Luke 22:36-38 to sell their clothes if necessary, and buy a sword if they had none, and when they showed him they had two swords, he said it would be enough. But later, when Simon Peter actually used one of the swords to cut off the right ear of the high priest's servant who came to arrest Jesus, Jesus chastised him, telling him to put the sword away and reminding him that he must drink from the cup which his father had given him (see John 18:10,11). He deliberately set up the whole sword scenario to begin with, so why the contradictory advice from this epitome of truth and light whenever there are other people around to witness his piety? In Luke, he used this opportunity he had created to "prove" he was the son of God by healing the servant's ear (see Luke 22:49-51). Was it all just a part of his dark charade? Were his unfortunate disciples merely ignorant pawns in his chess game?

You are edging on conspiracy theory, which is frankly not necessary. Jesus was saying that the time of his trial was coming near, and that He would be arrested and treated as a common criminal. While they were with Him they needed nothing - the implication is clear: when they are without Him they might. But the eager disciples thought He wanted them to defend Him (which He obviously didn't) and showed that they were "armed and ready". Jesus dismissed them with "that is enough!" (Gr. hikanon estin) in exasperation (echoed in v.51, when He says "no more of this!") - not as encouragement.

I know that Christians will always find a way to explain the unexplainable, because they'd rather die than give up the illusions they've spent a lifetime creating for themselves and for posterity - but in their heart of hearts, they must see all these things too - don't they?

I can only repeat what Jesus said in Matt. 13. It is possible to understand these things, but if you don't want to, you won't.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Jews believe in reincarnation!

Originally posted by Jenyar
The Old Testament does not teach reincarnation.
----------
Because the One Spirit of God created us from the pure positive energy of love, the human race is the bearer of hope and the chance for eternal spiritual growth. We ARE provided with the ultimate "second chance" of reincarnation according to the OT. We're granted other lives in which to advance our souls and rectify past mistakes. Jewish eschatology is made up of three basic pieces. 1) The Era of the Coming Messiah (according to Jewish Tradition). 2) The Afterlife. 3) The World of Our Own Personal Resurrection. (Not the resurrection of Jesus as explained in the NT).

"Reincarnation is a factor in Jewish Tradition. It's not cited as frequently or as openly as the belief in the vital role each one of us has in life, or the belief in the Afterlife."

"The Afterlife proper is called in the traditional sources olam habah, or the World to Come. However, the same term, olam habah, is also used to refer to the renewed utopic world of the future -- the World of Resurrection, olam hat'chiah. The former is the place righteous souls go to after death -- and they have been going there since the first death. That place is also sometimes called the World of Souls. 6 It's a place where souls exist in a intangible state, enjoying the pleasures of closeness to God. Thus, genuine near death experiences are presumably glimpses into the World of Souls, the place most people think of when the term Afterlife is mentioned."

"The World of Resurrection, by contrast, "no eye has seen," the Talmud remarks.7 It's a world, according to most authorities, where the body and soul are reunited to live eternally in a truly perfected state. That world will only first come into being after the Messiah and will be initiated by an event known as the "Great Day of Judgment,"(Yom HaDin HaGadol)8 The World of Resurrection is thus the ultimate reward, a place where the body becomes eternal and spiritual, while the soul becomes even more so.9"

"In comparison to a concept like the "World To Come," reincarnation is not, technically speaking, a true eschatology. Reincarnation is merely a vehicle toward attaining an eschatological end. It's the reentry of the soul into an entirely new body into the present world. Resurrection, by contrast, is the reunification of the soul with the former body (newly reconstituted) into the "World To Come," a world history has not witnessed yet."

"Resurrection is thus a pure eschatological concept. Its purpose is to reward the body with eternity (and the soul with higher perfection). The purpose of reincarnation is generally two-fold: either to make up for a failure in a previous life or to create a new, higher state of personal perfection not previously attained.10 The purpose of resurrection is to reward the body with eternity and the soul with higher perfection. Resurrection is thus a time of reward; reincarnation a time of repairing. Resurrection is a time of reaping; reincarnation a time of sowing."

"The fact that reincarnation is part of Jewish tradition comes as a surprise to many people. Nevertheless, it's mentioned in numerous places throughout the classical texts of Jewish mysticism, starting with the preeminent sourcebook of Kabbalah, the Zohar:"

"As long as a person is unsuccessful in his purpose in this world, the Holy One, blessed be He, uproots him and replants him over and over again. (Zohar I 186b)"

"All souls are subject to reincarnation; and people do not know the ways of the Holy One, blessed be He! They do not know that they are brought before the tribunal both before they enter into this world and after they leave it; they are ignorant of the many reincarnations and secret works which they have to undergo, and of the number of naked souls, and how many naked spirits roam about in the other world without being able to enter within the veil of the King's Palace. Men do not know how the souls revolve like a stone that is thrown from a sling. But the time is at hand when these mysteries will be disclosed. (Zohar II 99b)"

"The Zohar and related literature are filled with references to reincarnation, 14 addressing such questions as which body is resurrected and what happens to those bodies that did not achieve final perfection, how many chances a soul is given to achieve completion through reincarnation, whether a husband and wife can reincarnate together,if a delay in burial can affect reincarnation,and if a soul can reincarnate into an animal.19"

"Nonetheless reincarnation is certainly a part of our Tradition. We grant you Judaism doesn't *tout* reincarnation as much as other religions do, which leads others to assume we don't believe in it. But not a lot is made of reincarnation because there's the concern that if we depend on it, we won't extend ourselves in our efforts for spiritual growth right here and now, since we can always "come back and try again".)"

"The implications of living several lives are astounding. Among other things, it indicates that our ultimate spiritual station will be a product of what we were and what we did in the course of a full range of lives. Not just this one. Yet despite all the factors that impinge upon our spiritual struggles life, after life, after life, our standing in the World to Come will depend on our own efforts to achieve what God expects of us."

"It also needs to be said that our situation in this life may be a product of our last one. That often explains some of the seemingly "unfair" and "inexplicable" factors in our life. Understand as well that our situation in this life also helps to prepare us for the *following* one. In fact, the interplay between one life and another is much, much more far-reaching than we know."

"Reincarnation is one of the teachings of the Oral Torah. In the Written Torah there are no explicit references to reincarnation, but there are hints."

"Perhaps the closest Scriptural hint to this idea is Deuteronomy 25:5-10 which says that "when brothers are on the earth at the same time, and one of them dies childless, the wife of the dead brother must not marry a man outside the family. [Rather] her brother-in-law shall come to her and perform levirate marriage with her. And he shall be the first-born whom she bears; he shall succeed to the name of his dead brother, and so the name of the dead brother shall not be erased from the people of Israel... But if he refuses to marry his sister-in-law... she shall remove his shoe... His name shall be called in Israel: 'The house of him whose shoe was removed'."

"The main reason for reincarnation is for the soul to fulfill its role in the Creation and achieve the spiritual level for which it is destined. If a soul does not manage this in its first life, it may be given another chance, and another. If the soul did not succeed in three times, it will have to settle for whatever it has gained in the everlasting afterlife."

"Another reason for reincarnation is to repay a soul for its deeds in a way parallel to its sins; for example, a rich miser might be reincarnated as a poor beggar and be disregarded by a rich man, who was himself one of the paupers disregarded by the rich miser in his previous life."

"Let’s say that it is more like a candle. A candle can ignite another candle, spread that flame to another wick, but does not lose any of it's original flame. So too a soul can be used to spread itself to another being, a new being, in the same way (as per Hashem's Will) but really doesn't lose any of itself. Then, when Moshiach comes, all these 'parts' of the same soul are reunited."

"If we are 'back for another go around', it need not be that we have to rectify ourselves so literally. It is said that each mitzvoh of the 613 is connected to a particular limb or organ in the body (it is not specifically known which one is connected to which organ). And, that each part of the soul has a corresponding part. So, lets say that in a prior go-around, the part of the soul that was most negatively affected was the part associated with the tongue (leave out for now which mitzvah or sin that might have caused this). So, in this go-around, G-d might make that person a rabbi, or an orator, or a person whose main thrust (and test) in life will be related to speech. If he passes his tests, he will have rectified that part of his soul. If not...."

"Reincarnation is one of the teachings of the Oral Torah. In the Written Torah there are no explicit references to reincarnation, but there are hints. Perhaps the closest Scriptural hint to this idea is Deuteronomy 25:5-10 which says that "when brothers are on the earth at the same time, and one of them dies childless, the wife of the dead brother must not marry a man outside the family. [Rather] her brother-in-law shall come to her and perform levirate marriage with her. And he shall be the first-born whom she bears; he shall succeed to the name of his dead brother, and so the name of the dead brother shall not be erased from the people of Israel... But if he refuses to marry his sister-in-law... she shall remove his shoe... His name shall be called in Israel: 'The house of him whose shoe was removed'."

"The main reason for reincarnation is for the soul to fulfill its role in the Creation and achieve the spiritual level for which it is destined. If a soul does not manage this in its first life, it may be given another chance, and another. If the soul did not succeed in three times, it will have to settle for whatever it has gained in the everlasting afterlife."

"Another reason for reincarnation is to repay a soul for its deeds in a way parallel to its sins; for example, a rich miser might be reincarnated as a poor beggar and be disregarded by a rich man, who was himself one of the paupers disregarded by the rich miser in his previous life. However, if a person has free will they CAN KNOW what they did wrong in a previous life but have the option NOT to fix the problem either, right? So NOT knowing does not really affect free will."

Sources:

1. Zohar, Mishpatim, Exodus 1:1
2. Sha'ar Hagilgulim, Hakdama 36
6. Ramban (Nachmanides), Shaar HaGemul. According to the Ramban and other authorities, the "World of Souls" is also often referred to as the Garden of Eden.
7. Sanhedrin 99a.
8. Ramban, Shaar HaGemul. Citing Talmudic and Midrashic sources
9. Derech Hashem 1:3:13.
10. Shaar HaGilgulim, Chapter 8; Derech Hashem 2:3:10.
14. Zohar I:131a, 186b, 2:94a, 97a, 100a, 105b, 106a, 3:88b, 215a 216a
19. Tikunnei Zohar 70 (133a). Later Kabbalists detail the circumstances that can lead to reincarnation in vegetative and even mineral form. Shaar HaGilgulim, Chapter 22 & 29; Sefer Haredim 33, Ohr HaChaim 1:26.

"Reincarnation is an ancient, mainstream belief in Judaism. The Zohar, written by Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai close to two thousand years ago, speaks frequently and at length about reincarnation. Onkelos, a righteous convert and authoritative commentator of the same period, explained the verse, "Let Reuben live and not die..." (Deuteronomy 33:6) to mean that Reuben should merit the World to Come directly, and not have to die again as result of being reincarnated. The great Torah scholar, commentator and kabbalist, Nachmanides (Ramban 1195-1270), attributed Job's suffering to reincarnation as hinted in Job's saying "G-d does all these things twice or three times with a man, to bring back his soul from the pit to...the light of the living" (Job 33:29,30)."

"Rabbi Chaim Vital, the disciple of the Arizal (1534-1572), explains in detail the Jewish concept of reincarnation. The soul is placed in a body in order for a person to attain spiritual perfection by refraining from transgression and performing mitzvot. If one accrues too much spiritual damage, the soul must return to repair the damage. Similarly, if one didn't take full advantage of the opportunity to perfect the soul, it may be reincarnated to complete its perfection. The way it works is as follows:

The first time a soul enters this world, the person is able to perfect the three lower levels of soul, nefesh, ruach, and neshama (see "Ask the Rabbi-Soul"). If so, the soul goes to "the world of souls" where it awaits resurrection. If not, the different levels of soul can only be perfected in different lifetimes. Each time a level of soul is perfected, the person dies, is reincarnated, and given the chance to perfect the next level of soul. Previously perfected levels of soul are not damaged by sins in the current reincarnation. The soul continues to be perfected in this way until it is perfected at least in nefesh, ruach, and neshama, at which point the soul goes to "the world of souls". The bodies of all the soul's reincarnations will be resurrected, but the first body is the main one."

"Another reason souls may be reincarnated is for zivug (soul-mates): Either because they missed their zivug, and perfection can only be achieved through marrying one's soul-mate; or even if they married but one soul wasn't perfected, the other must return to be with its zivug. Sometimes even a perfected soul, such as that of a tzaddik (a very righteous person), may be reincarnated in order to help perfect others. While a person is not aware of previous reincarnations, the Arizal explained that those areas of Torah that a person particularly enjoys learning are those that weren't completed in previous lives and should be concentrated on now. Conversely, the mitzvoth that one finds particularly difficult are specifically those needing correction."

"The majority of kabbalists are of the opinion that in addition to the first life, there are at most three incarnations. They cite the above-mentioned verse from Job "twice or three times with a man...". The Zohar says this on the verse "punishing the iniquity...to the third and fourth generation [reckoning from the first life]" (Exodus 34:7). However, Sefer HaBahir says that a soul can be reincarnated a thousand times. The renowned kabbalist of the 1600's, Rabbi Menashe ben Israel, resolves this contradiction by saying that since the purpose of reincarnation is to perfect the soul, after three times with no progress the soul loses its chance ("three strikes and you're out"). But if the soul is progressing, even in small increments, it can be reincarnated many times. Another resolution is that the soul can be reincarnated as a human only three times, as suggested by the verse "twice or three times with a man". Afterwards the soul may be reincarnated even a thousand times as a lower life form."

"The following story illustrates how past wrongs may be corrected through reincarnation:

Once, a poor man complained to the Ba'al Shem Tov about his suffering. The rabbi sent him to a certain man in a distant town that might be able to help him. When he arrived and asked directions to the man's house, one person after another spat and cursed at the mention of his name. Finally he reached the house only to have the door slammed in his face. After pleading with the owner of the house for an explanation, he was told that the man he wants, a terrible miser hated by all, died long ago. Bewildered, the man returned to
the Baal Shem Tov and told him what happened. The rabbi looked him square in the eyes and said "the man you were looking for was you!" The man realized the reason for his poverty, and started giving whatever he had to charity. Eventually he was able to give extensively."

"Interestingly, reincarnation as well as other spiritual concepts in eastern religions may be rooted in Judaism. After Sarah's death, Abraham remarried Hagar who was renamed Ketura because her deeds had become pleasant as incense (ketoret). Even though Isaac was Abraham's main disciple, Ketura's sons also received spiritual knowledge from Abraham that they spread to the East. According to Rabbi Menashe ben Israel, this is the meaning of the verses, "And Abraham gave all that he had to Isaac. But to the sons of the concubines...Abraham gave gifts...and sent them away...eastward, to the east country" (Genesis 25:5,6). Initially the knowledge spread by these sons was true to the teachings of Abraham, but over time it was tainted and transformed by idol worship."

Sources:

- Zohar I:94a,I:150, I:186b, 3:215a; especially Parshat Mishpatim
- Targum Onkelos, Deuteronomy 33:6
- Ramban, Sha'ar HaGemul
- Chaim Vital, Sha'ar HaGilgulim, Introduction 2,5,8
- Sefer Chassidim 41
- Arizal, Sefer HaGilgulim, 84
- Menashe ben Israel, Nismat Chaim, section 4, ch. 14 and 21

http://www.jdstone.org/truth/

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by Jenyar
No, John was not Elijah reincarnated. The Old Testament does not teach reincarnation.

Why would Elijah need to be reincarnated when he supposedly never died in the first place?

By the way, it was expected that Elijah's mission would be to "turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers" before God should smite the earth with a curse. Don't you find it odd that Jesus' stated mission was to do exactly the opposite - i.e., to stir up hatred and division between family members? And no - Jesus didn't say that he knew these things would happen simply as a result of people listening to his message and following him - he said that's specifically what he came to do! Jesus came to turn those who do wickedly, including those who do not honor their families, into stubble. Jesus was the curse; he was the star called "Wormwood" that made the third part of the waters bitter causing many to perish.

He who has ears, let him hear.

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by Jenyar
If you read Isaiah 6 (which Jesus quoted), you will see his reason to be similar to the act of reaping. As in Isaiah 6 only a remnant would remain, in Matt. 13 Jesus implies only the remnant will understand. My own interpretation of this is that only people who want to learn about their faith would be able to learn from the parables (v.12 "Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance"), while people who disbelieve or mock the faith will find it nonsense ("Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him").

The bottom line is that if you don't accept ("hear") what Jesus said plainly, neither will you be able accept ("understand") what He said through parables. But nobody will stop you from doing either.

Jesus misquoted Isaiah 6 just slightly - here is the original version in Isaiah 6:9-12:

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

God told Isaiah to utter a curse to confound people and to hide truth from all those in his audience as part of his plan to bring about the Jewish Exile.

But here is Jesus' version in Matthew 13;10-15:

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

So either Jesus himself had no understanding of God's original intent when he ordered Isaiah to curse the Israelites' understanding, or he was once again deliberately trying to present himself to be a fulfillment of prophecy to those who lacked understanding of the scriptures.

I'm not the one here who doesn't want to know the true meaning behind Jesus' parables, Jenyar.

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by Jenyar
The key is right there in verse 10: Jesus did not go publicly (as his brothers wanted him to). "Not until halfway through the Feast did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach." (v.14).

Jesus told them "the right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right", i.e. they could expect him at any time, but He would decide the time himself. At the time of their prompting, Jesus was "not yet" going to the Feast and evidently wasn't ready (or just didn't know when) to begin his public ministry yet. After they were gone, he was free to go there in secret and wait for the appointed time.

If you think about it, this is the same thing Jesus told us. He said He was coming again; only God knows the appointed time, but we should expect Him at any moment. He knew what people were saying about him at the Feast; He knows what we are saying about Him now.

Hmmmm...Jesus showed up in the second half of the 7-day feast (see Daniel 9:27)...Jesus brings an end to the daily sacrifices (see Daniel 8:11,12)...a symbol of Jesus stands on the pinnacle of Christian houses of worship (see Matthew, verses 4:5 and 24:15)...

It seems to me that practically everything this Jesus character does points to him being the "antichrist" more than the Christ. It's funny that Christians are expecting someone else who will come along at some future point to try to deceive everyone in the world - even the very elect - into believing he is the Messiah, and who will, for the most part, be successful. But they can't see themselves and their "Christ" as being a part of this picture at all, even though Christians represent approximately one-third of the world's population! Amazing!

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by Nehushta
It seems to me that practically everything this Jesus character does points to him being the "antichrist" more than the Christ. It's funny that Christians are expecting someone else who will come along at some future point to try to deceive everyone in the world - even the very elect - into believing he is the Messiah, and who will, for the most part, be successful. But they can't see themselves and their "Christ" as being a part of this picture at all, even though Christians represent approximately one-third of the world's population! Amazing!

And all this time I've been claiming Paul as the Antichrist!

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by Jenyar
The colt/foal (there was probably only one animal involved, as Mark, Luke and John indicate) was ready for him. The fact that Jesus knew where it was and how it would be found means that it was prepared for him - and since you don't believe in miracles, why don't you think the owner prepared it himself? That the words "God needs them" sufficed, means the owner (if he or anybody else even asked, since it doesn't seem so) released them willingly at such a request. Personally I don't see why God did not provide them just like He did the ram when Abraham almost sacrificed his son. God can't "steal" something He already owns. And there is no prescription how prophecy should be fulfilled. The significance was not lost on the crowd.

Who says I don't believe in miracles? But even Pharoah's magicians could perform most of the miracles that Moses performed, couldn't they? According to OT wisdom, does this prove that those magicians were either God or the sons of God? Obviously not, and yet this doesn't stop Christians from presenting their "Christ" as God incarnate and/or the son of God by reason of his ability to perform miracles.

But if you read Deuteromy 13:1-5, and understand it's message, you will realize that Jesus' miracles were, in actuality, nothing more than a test of the fidelity of the Jews to their god:

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

So you are right to wonder why God didn't simply provide the donkey without Jesus requiring his disciples to break the 8th commandment in order to fulfill this prophecy - I think this is the best point you've made so far in this discussion!

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
And all this time I've been claiming Paul as the Antichrist!

I can see why you might see him this way, but personally, I think Paul was just a patsy who was deceived by the "angel of light."

 

[okinrus]

This seems to imply that anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus existed is the anti-christ, and mere believe that Jesus existed must be pro-christ.

To be a anti-christ you have to purposely teach something contrary to what you know.

The suffering servent examples cannot be Israel. Never has Israel been described as being perfect or a man in the old testement. In fact, If <i><b>you</b></i> actually read Isaiah you will know that Israel is the bridegroom of God. Also, the old convent was not to the nations. "I formed you, and set you as a covenant of the people, a light for the nations."(Isaiah 42:6) Only Jesus has given up his blood and became the convenent. Isreal has also never been described as sinless. "Though he had done no wrong nor spoken any falsehood..." To get a feel of Jews before Jesus interpreted Isaiah and the other Messianic prophesies to be you should read <a href="http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/enoch.htm">the book of Enoch</a>.

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by Jenyar
You are edging on conspiracy theory, which is frankly not necessary. Jesus was saying that the time of his trial was coming near, and that He would be arrested and treated as a common criminal. While they were with Him they needed nothing - the implication is clear: when they are without Him they might. But the eager disciples thought He wanted them to defend Him (which He obviously didn't) and showed that they were "armed and ready". Jesus dismissed them with "that is enough!" (Gr. hikanon estin) in exasperation (echoed in v.51, when He says "no more of this!") - not as encouragement.

Why would his disciples need to arm themselves once Jesus was gone? If Jesus' message was about peace, this shouldn't have been necessary. You might find Micah 4:1-5 interesting:

But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

Jesus did the opposite of this character in nearly every way. He said that he did not come to bring peace, but the sword of division. Rather than advise his disciples to beat their swords into plowshares, he told them to arm themselves with swords at any cost.

[NOTE: He even destroyed fig trees that failed to produce fruit out of season!]

Like Kevin Spacey's character in "The Usual Suspects," Jesus gave his disciples every clue as to his true identity - but Judas was the only one who ever caught on.

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by okinrus
To be a anti-christ you have to purposely teach something contrary to what you know.

And this is exactly what I've been saying all this time about Jesus!

The suffering servent examples cannot be Israel. Never has Israel been described as being perfect or a man in the old testement. In fact, If <i><b>you</b></i> actually read Isaiah you will know that Israel is the bridegroom of God. Also, the old convent was not to the nations. "I formed you, and set you as a covenant of the people, a light for the nations."(Isaiah 42:6) Only Jesus has given up his blood and became the convenent. Isreal has also never been described as sinless. "Though he had done no wrong nor spoken any falsehood..." To get a feel of Jews before Jesus interpreted Isaiah and the other Messianic prophesies to be you should read <a href="http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/enoch.htm">the book of Enoch</a>.

Perhaps you will find this article enlightening: The Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53.