Jesus Myth

There is plenty of evidence That Jesus was a man who eat, drunk, slept, went to the toilet, had a man's body.....etc. also there is evidence that as a man he died and he is gone . His bones are somewhere shattered in Palestine .Oops...I forgot ...he was never a god and never a son of god. Huh...who is god anyway ? !.

According to the bible, Jesus was the son of god, performed miracles, and when he died his body completely disappeared after 3 days. Apparently, Jesus now lives and his second coming has been foretold.

How many men can do that?

Clearly, the concept of Jesus as a man was facade, a lie gobbled up by the gullible.
 
Gday,

Kapyong
Do you believe Buddha existed before? Is he different from Jesus?

I think Buddha was probably a myth too.

Adam & Eve, Noah, Moses, Joseph - all myths.
Solomon & David - probably myths.

Zoroaster - probably a myth.

Lao Tzu - probably a myth.

There are even more modern examples :
* William Tell
* Ned Ludd
* Don Juan (Castenada's)
* Molly Pitcher

All myths, but believd to exist by some people.


K.
 
Myths generally have a basis in fact. However minuscule that fact may be.
 
Myths generally have a basis in fact. However minuscule that fact may be.

The Jesus myth was based on a fact - the fact that some people had visions and beliefs about a spiritual being.

And the fact that some later people wrote stories, and later people thought the stories were true.


K.
 
I am Atheist.
I just want to ask, why there is no vivid historical record of Jesus the nazareth in Roman history?
And, can the "lack of evidence" that Jesus existed be the evidence he did not exist?

This is rather patently not true. Jesus (the human) existed beyond a doubt. Modern Historians have:

1) A Roman record of his crucifixion
2) A Jewish Sanhedrin record of his trial and the verdict of death.
3) References from several historians, none* firsthand
4) *FOUR eyewitness accounts.


Oh, and speaking of which, there is a quite detailled account of Jesus by a historian of the highest quality. His name was Luke.

Yeah, little known fact. One of the gospels was actually written by a master historian.
 
Who is Luke? if he is a hostorian, what are his other writings?
Did Luke met Jesus face to face before Jesus dies.
 
Who is Luke? if he is a hostorian, what are his other writings?
Did Luke met Jesus face to face before Jesus dies.

1) Luke wrote 2 documents of note: The Gospel of Luke, and the Acts of the Apostles. One recorded the life of Jesus, the other the histories of the Christians and their Church.

2) Luke was Paul's apostle. He did not (I believe) meet Jesus before he died. Secondhand witness.



Unfortunately, I think you have very, very little grasp of what historical evidence is like. For one thing:

A historian is not counted by the number of his works, but by their accuracy. Luke's account contains incredible detail, and ALL conflicts with other historians or with traditional histories have now been settled IN FAVOR of Luke by archaeologists. In fact, I believe, but am not 100% sure, that Luke is one of the few historians we know of who has never been proven wrong in any of his writings, no matter how trivial.

Sir William Ramsay (Famous Archaeologist) wrote that "Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy...[he] should be placed along with the very greatest of historians."

For more info, look up Luke the Evangelist on wiki. The reference page is very accurate.


For another:

Count the # of roman historians you've ever heard of. Look it up, if you want.

Wiki lists 12. The problem is that there are virtually NO eyewitness accounts of anything written by credible historians by virtue of the fact that there aren't enough. If you look at a map of the Roman Empire and just count the number of (modern) countries encompassed, there's not even enough historians to be scattered one to a country. Let alone to cover 600 years of empire.

Secondhand accounts are already nearly nonexistent.
 
How can Luke be reliable?
From where he got stories about Jesus?
Historian shall not write about Faith, historian is to write what actually happened and not to comment or pursuade people to believe anything.
But Luke is different, I suppose he is a Christian of this Faith, and he is biased or inclined to write for the sake of supporting his own faith.
So, we can not trust Luke to be honest to history about Jesus, he can twist and turn to write only good things to pursuade people to believe "his own story", but not genuine history.
 
1) Luke wrote 2 documents of note: The Gospel of Luke, and the Acts of the Apostles. One recorded the life of Jesus, the other the histories of the Christians and their Church.
*************
M*W: There is no proof that Luke wrote anything. There is also no proof that the Luke of the new testament even existed. The "Gospel of Luke" is the title of a book.

2) Luke was Paul's apostle. He did not (I believe) meet Jesus before he died. Secondhand witness.
*************
M*W: No one met Jesus before he died. Jesus didn't exist, so he didn't die.

Unfortunately, I think you have very, very little grasp of what historical evidence is like. For one thing:
*************
M*W: You need to do some reading yourself.

A historian is not counted by the number of his works, but by their accuracy. Luke's account contains incredible detail, and ALL conflicts with other historians or with traditional histories have now been settled IN FAVOR of Luke by archaeologists. In fact, I believe, but am not 100% sure, that Luke is one of the few historians we know of who has never been proven wrong in any of his writings, no matter how trivial.
*************
M*W: Taken from A short history of forgery and heresy in the Bible
by Brent Herbert Wednesday, Apr. 05, 2006: Forgery and Heresy in the Gospel of Luke

"The Gospel of Luke and the related ‘Book of Acts' incorporate such extensive forging of the historical record and multiple heresies, and I will focus on only a few of the most notorious examples here. The sad truth of the matter is that as far as history is concerned, the whole document was written for the express purpose of forging history, which means that a full discussion of the agenda of the author would be quite lengthy, since it involves almost the entire manuscript, which is replete with history forged and distorted for ideological purposes and heresies introduced for reasons of particular ideology."

"The most damnable heresy propagated by the author of Luke and Acts is to suggest that Jesus was a conservative, Torah observant Jew, who practiced the Law of Moses and encouraged others to do so. He was not in the line of continuity with the Jewish prophets, but rather he carried on the traditions of the Jewish priests, which would then mean that Jesus was hostile to the message of the prophets, and would have joined with the priests in damning the prophets. The book of Luke and Acts are the product of later developments in a growing trend towards priestly religion, and it is the fact that Luke is peddling the development of a religious hierarchy that the author turns to such damnable heresy."

"The first evidence that we have of this heresy can be found by comparing the Gospel of Luke with the Gospel of Mark. The attack on the food laws is strangely absent in Luke's account. Any criticism of the law of Moses is purged and disappears. You will notice a large gap, the white space where the author of Luke has taken the knife and sliced away any criticism of the law of Moses."

"It is here that we encounter questions about historical accuracy. Is it acceptable to base a ‘theology' upon historical inaccuracies? Is some fictional delusion considered acceptable to theologians? Apparently so, for even when something is historically inaccurate it can still be incorporated into a system of theology, since it would appear that the criteria of theology is not truth but rather utility. If it was true that Jesus preached the message of the Jewish prophets, which is what we can discern through a critical reading of the Gospel of Mark, then it becomes clear that the agenda of the author of Luke and Acts was to deliberately distort history by causing us to believe that Jesus did not preach the message of the Jewish prophets, but rather he preached the message of the Jewish priest. If this was true, then it means that no one should listen to Jesus, because Jesus was brainless enough to preach the message of a Jewish priest, thus getting everyone involved in sterile ritual, not to mention a big pile of murderous genocide and theft. However if it is true, as the earliest gospel suggests, that Jesus did preach the message of the Jewish prophets, and thus rejected the religion as a forgery, then what we can discern here is that the author of the Gospel of Luke and Acts was the moron, while it was Jesus was who the intelligent one. So therefore, we are left with a stark choice. Either Luke was a moron or Jesus was a moron. If it is true that Jesus was a first class moron, then that means that both Jesus and Luke were harmful morons who did nothing to benefit humanity, and instead saddled everyone with the rotten superstitions and the harmfully poisonous violence of religion, and therefore we can forget about ‘the historical Jesus' at the same time we forget about the ‘historical Luke', since they were both first class jackasses. However if Mark's account is more historically accurate, then we need only consider Luke to be the first class jackass, and it turns out that Jesus was a sensible and decent human being, who did, after all, attack that revolting priestly forgery as one would expect to be done by a decent human being. It would then be Luke who was indecent, and not Jesus."

"Now it is bad enough in that the heretic who produced the Gospel of Luke felt brave enough to take a bar of soap to the mouth of Jesus, and wash away all criticism of priestly religion. Having done this dreadful deed, the author then plunges head long into what I regard as the most damnable heresy, by leading the church down into the ditch by persistently working to convince the reader that the ‘Law of God' was of divine origin and brought down by Moses. Even the genocidal laws are washed clean and polished by this particular author, for whom, it would seem, nothing priestly is to filthy to be crumpled into a ball and tossed into a garbage can."

"Among the many gifts left to the world by that heretic is the religious right, for whom Luke paved a road, and the fundamentalism and all the backwardness of Christian theology that have followed in the ages past, since it was the unique contribution of that heretic to prepare the church to be polluted by this particular forger of Gospels." [/QUOTE]
 
Gday,

This is rather patently not true. Jesus (the human) existed beyond a doubt. Modern Historians have:

Wrong.
There IS doubt.
THIS very thread shows doubt.


1) A Roman record of his crucifixion

False.
There is no such record at all.
Which is why you didn't cite or quote any.

2) A Jewish Sanhedrin record of his trial and the verdict of death.

False.
There is no such record at all.
Which is why you didn't cite or quote it.


3) References from several historians, none* firsthand

False.
What we DO have is a few comments by LATER writers about Christian BELIEFS about Jesus. That is NOT historical evidence for Jesus.


4) *FOUR eyewitness accounts.

Pardon ?

Even according to CHRISTIAN tradition only TWO of the Gospels were by eye-witnesses anyway -
* Mark was Peter's secretary in Rome - NOT an eye-witness.
* Luke was Paul's companion on his travels - NOT an eye-witness.

Who are the "FOUR" eye-witnesses, fiicere?

How many NT books contain a 1st hand claim to have met Jesus personally?
Just ONE - the very late FORGED letter 2 Peter.

That means -

We do NOT have even ONE authentic 1st hand claim to have met a historical Jesus personally.


How do you explain that fiicere?

Sure, we have claims that Jesus APPEARED to people.

Sure, we have claims that OTHERS met Jesus personally.

But NOT ONE authentic claim to have personally met a historical Jesus.


Oh, and speaking of which, there is a quite detailled account of Jesus by a historian of the highest quality. His name was Luke.

Oh, and speaking of which, there is a quite detailled account of Xenu by a historian of the highest quality. His name was L. Ron Hubbard.

What nonsense.
Calling one of your own sect's anonymous preaching books "history" doesn't fool anyone here.

(We don't even know who WROTE it !
The name "Luke" was attached late in 2nd century.)


Yeah, little known fact. One of the gospels was actually written by a master historian.

Pfft.
That's not a "little known fact".
It's well-known Christian faithful preaching.

(This sort of claim always puzzles me - do you really expect me to answer :
"Oh, right - I didn't know that fact; but now I know it - that must mean Jesus is real ! You win ! Hallelujah!" ?
Get off the grass fiicere.)


The Gospel of Luke was originally anonymous - the author is unknown and clearly not part of the action - there are NO personal assides or 1st hand accounts anywhere in any Gospel.

And they plagiarised most of the Gospel of Mark (who himself was NOT an eye-witness) - so clearly this author is NOT an eye-witness at all.


K.
 
Gday,

1) Luke wrote 2 documents of note: The Gospel of Luke, and the Acts of the Apostles. One recorded the life of Jesus, the other the histories of the Christians and their Church.

2) Luke was Paul's apostle. He did not (I believe) meet Jesus before he died. Secondhand witness.

That's what faithful Christians faithfully believe.

But scholars don't - because the evidence does not support your faithful beliefs.


A historian is not counted by the number of his works, but by their accuracy. Luke's account contains incredible detail, and ALL conflicts with other historians or with traditional histories have now been settled IN FAVOR of Luke by archaeologists. In fact, I believe, but am not 100% sure, that Luke is one of the few historians we know of who has never been proven wrong in any of his writings, no matter how trivial.

Rubbish.
Luke is NOT a "historian".
The ANONYMOUS book of Luke is faithful preaching.

And it DOES have various errors :
* Luke 2:2 and 1:5 is wrong about Quirinius,
* Acts 5:37 is wrong about Judas the Galilean,
* Acts 10:1 is probably wrong about the Italica cohort,
* Acts 5:34-39 is probably wrong about Gamaliel's tolerance,
(from Brown's NT commentary, Doubleday, 1996, page 321)


Sir William Ramsay (Famous Archaeologist) wrote that "Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy...[he] should be placed along with the very greatest of historians."

A faithful Christian from long ago preaching faithful Christian beliefs.
Why on earth do you think this is evidence?

Tom Cruise beleives in L. Ron Hubbard - does that convince you?
No?
So why do you think preaching some old Christian's beliefs will convince us?

And calling him a "famouse archeologist"?
Who calls him that?
Christians !
Christians who like to preach his faithful beliefs as support for THEIR beliefs.


We aren't in Church now fiicere - you have to ARGUE with facts and evidence here.

NOT more preaching about what other Christians BELIEVE.


K.
 
I am Atheist.
I just want to ask, why there is no vivid historical record of Jesus the nazareth in Roman history?
And, can the "lack of evidence" that Jesus existed be the evidence he did not exist?

Catholic religion have arises with the help of a late Roman emperor called Constantine in around 350AD (more or less I can't remember). It has been "modified" to harmonized the various pagans religions present inside the Roman empire so to put everyone happy inside the same religion instead of keeping them unhappy and divided).
So knowing under which premise the church has arisen, then it is no wonder, that traces of the REAL life of Jesus, were to be kept away from prying eyes, if not even utterly destroyed. Because from then on, Jesus wasn't a human anymore, but became a god!!! So a god, cannot have the defects of a common human, he was to be made perfect, so perfect that no ones could recognized him at his supposed returned, so to help the Church to keep forever the power on its "empire"...
Actually the Roman empire has mutated into the Christian religion right at that moment!!
 
By 350, Constantine was dead for almost fifteen years. The only big contribution Constantine made to Christianity was convening the First Council of Nicaea in 325, which sorted out the nature of God the Son within the Trinity and the date of Easter. And yes, that is all that the Council of Nicaea did; people need to stop with all these ridiculous conspiracy theory stories about Nicaea or Constantine suddenly shaping the Christian Church into something it wasn't already.

Look at the historical record instead of this insane and historically inaccurate Dan Brownery.
 
fiicere,

This is rather patently not true. Jesus (the human) existed beyond a doubt.
Oh man, do you have a long way to go. Looks like you have been well and trully suckered into Christian propaganda.
 
By 350, Constantine was dead for almost fifteen years. The only big contribution Constantine made to Christianity was convening the First Council of Nicaea in 325, which sorted out the nature of God the Son within the Trinity and the date of Easter. And yes, that is all that the Council of Nicaea did; people need to stop with all these ridiculous conspiracy theory stories about Nicaea or Constantine suddenly shaping the Christian Church into something it wasn't already.

Look at the historical record instead of this insane and historically inaccurate Dan Brownery.

Well, it has been shaped like this, depends where you get your reading materials... In my place we are Catholic, not protestant, so the story and references might be slightly different.
But the Vatican is mainly a political entity and its basic reasons to exist has always been politically motivated since the beginning (I mean while being adopted by the Romans).
I got several friends, and one doing in PHD in Catholic religion, and I can tell you that is pretty much the real story out there and nothing to do with Dan Brown. But the problem with history, is that it is always written by the winners, so we never get to know the other side of the story...
 
I believe Christianity is a complicated religion in terms of her historical development.
Basically it preaches that "unbelievers will go to hell".
There are many reasons why people do not want to accept this religion.
Different people have different points of view and sets of value, and different natures and backgrounds. We believe what is acceptable to us. To some people, the concept of God/Creator is absurb, the miraculous stories in Bible are even more ridiculous. Therefore they reject them and can not be convinced that the Bible is the true Word of God.
However, the teaching of Xniatity does not take into account of these, it just condems you on the basis that you are not its believers.
 
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