Jesus claimed to be God, so did Jesus exist, and was he a liar or lunatic?

[Avatar]

Sure.
1) You can start by rereading the bible (and doing a comparison of the old testament and new).
2) Then you could read one of the gospels that was left out for political reasons in the 4th century, but an original was found among the famous Dead Sea Scrolls: http://www.thethomasgospel.com/contents.htm
3) Read some gnostic texts from here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/gno/index.htm
4) Then read some history books on the state of the Roman empire and society in the 4th and 5th centuries, take early Byzantium too, if you have the time.
5) Then for a good analysis on christianity as a whole and the texts mentioned I suggest "Occidental Mythology" by Joseph Campbell (you can buy it at Amazon.com -> The Masks of God : Occidental Mythology Vol. 3)

This should give you the minimum knowledge you'd require.

I guess you could read just the 5th, because the author of the book quotes all of the aforementioned texts (maybe less about the Roman empire though), but I always like to see the source for myself. Alas you can choose to trust me that the author is very knowledgable and with deep understanding in world religions and myths (which partially are the same thing). So you could probably read the book and then afterwards read on any additional other information you think you require, particulary the sources I've mentioned and the sources that Joseph Campbell has given in the end notes.


p.s. About the catholic prosecution of gnostics either read some gnostic specific history article (not issued by Vatican, please) or just read up to the 12th century European history and keep an eye open for that.

 

[Hapsburg]

Sorry , I failed to make my self clear. Jesus claimed to be God. SO my question is was he God, a liar or a lunatic?

Lunatic and a liar. Gods don't exist.

 

[Sgal]

Where does it say Jesus claimed to be God? He never would have done that. He only would have claimed to be who he was. He was always open and honest about everything. That's why he was killed and bertayed the way he was. Because in those times if you said too much or the wrong thing you were branded a traitor and heretic.

 

[Novacane]

If Jesus said he was the son of God, who could dispute it? Pilate? Jewish religious leaders of that period? Jesus was killed because he was Jesus and if the story ended up any other way, then the church's doctrine on christianity wouldn't be totally different than it is today. Maybe the pope would be out of work. Right?

 

[Avatar]

Where does it say Jesus claimed to be God?

John 10:30: "I and my Father are one."

John 14:9: Jesus says, "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father."

Thomas 77: Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.
Split a piece of wood; I am there.
Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

 

[Novacane]

John 10:30: "I and my Father are one."

John 14:9: Jesus says, "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father."

Thomas 77: Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.
Split a piece of wood; I am there.
Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

If these were Jesus 'own' words, then please verify the source (name, address, date & if possible the time) and it's factual historical accuracy. Thanks

 

[Avatar]

In mythology there is no historic acuracy, the events are mythological, they are metaphors. Mythology is not factual information, though it may hold some, it must be read like poetry.
There never was an actual garden of Eden or paradise. Jesus could have said these words, but maybe he didn't, but that is of no importance, because according to the christian doctrine he said them.
The result and the effect is absolutely the same either way.

p.s. I doubt you can verify most of the historical data we have to such a precision as you required, and you know that. Even if that accounts for the last week.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

If these were Jesus 'own' words, then please verify the source (name, address, date & if possible the time) and it's factual historical accuracy. Thanks

*************
M*W: Ha. ha. ha. ha. ha. ha. ha. ha! Factual. Ha. ha. ha. ha. Historical. Ha. ha. ha. ha. ha.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

In mythology there is no historic acuracy, the events are mythological, they are metaphors. Mythology is not factual information, though it may hold some, it must be read like poetry.
There never was an actual garden of Eden or paradise. Jesus could have said these words, but maybe he didn't, but that is of no importance, because according to the christian doctrine he said them. The result and the effect is absolutely the same either way.

p.s. I doubt you can verify most of the historical data we have to such a precision as you required, and you know that. Even if that accounts for the last week.

*************
M*W: This is the funniest thing I've heard in the last two weeks! Dream on, mutha!

 

[Avatar]

You're welcome!

 

[Sgal]

Avatar, everything you said that Jesus said could be interpreted as him being close with God. ANd that would be true because of his special gifts and the things that he did with them. It sounds like your accusing him of lying about being God when all he really said was I am following Gods will and I am very close to God.
You can say Jesus was some obsessed maniac who wanted people to follow him or that he really wanted to help people see the good. Saying he was crazy is wrong becuase he didn't lead people to their death and he didn't punish if people didn't want to follow him.

 

[Avatar]

I'm not accusing him of anything!
And what he's teaching (beying one with god and god as the whole existence) is a major mythological thought known in many regions throughout the world and time, and very ancient at that too (it originated in the first planting societies and possibly among the jungle gatherer people).
At the time of Jesus it was especially vividly flowering in buddhism and hinduism (upanishads and maha yana buddhism), and some centuries before Jesus buddhists had been sending misionaries to Europe (Egypt, Greece, Malta, Macedonia).
Look at the full worldwide mythological picture. There is nothing really original in christianity, it fits in an already existing theme.

You have a very scewed perception of what I said, maybe because you're too entangled in your dogma.

 

[Gordon]

He was killed for a number of reasons. One of them was that He, “as God”, was teaching the Jews to reject the very Laws that “God” had given them in the Old Testament, as if they were bad, or wrong, or evil. And I would agree with the idea that some of them were bad, and wrong, and even evil.

God supposedly gave the nation of Israel many eternal Laws in the Old Testament that had to be obeyed or you would just be stoned to death. There are many wonderful examples of the “spiritual” darkness that the Old Testament Laws brought about. One man was killed without mercy for simply picking up sticks on the Sabbath. There are quite a number of Laws that require you to kill your own children and other family members “without mercy”. There is even a Law which allows you to sell your own daughter as a sex slave. It’s a beautiful day in the neighborhood! There are many others!

And then Jesus shows up on the Jewish scene, claims to be their God and then basically tells them not to follow many of the Laws that God had already given them. I agree with Him, some of them should not be followed! But, this alone was probably a pretty clear indicator, to the Jewish mind anyway, that Jesus was not the God He claimed to be. Their God!

In direct contradiction to this Jesus, “as God”, also kept telling the Jews that the Law was good and should be obeyed. He even told them that unless they kept the commandments and precepts of the Old Testament they would end up in hell, a place which, I think, did not even exist in their Old Testament scriptures. Can someone please correct me on this if I am wrong?

Paul contradicts Jesus all over the place on this and tells everyone that you do not have to keep the Law at all. But then, Paul even contradicts Paul on this. Basically, you have to decide to follow either Jesus or Jesus or Paul or Paul. Choose Jesus and you come under Paul’s condemnation. Choose Paul and you come under the condemnation of Jesus. It’s a lose, lose, situation. Most people today, choose Paul and are condemned by Jesus. Paul’s way is an easier more feel good way to shirk yourself of almost all of the responsibility of your own wrongful actions. This is guilt free living at its finest! Sinning without either guilt or condemnation! Ooops! This is also known as the broad way that leads to destruction that Jesus talked about. Something smells fishy to me, at least.

I have never been able to figure this mess out. Perhaps Jesus was God, and the Old Testament Laws were evil and were never given by God at all, but are only the inventions of men. This might make at least some sense???? Or maybe it is all just a fabricated story! I do not know!

By the way, does anyone know if the current day nation of Israel is still operating under the Old Testament Law or have even they rejected it?

Sorry for the preaching!

The essence of the Law of the Old Testament was essentially the ten commandments. Jesus summarised them into two: Love God, Love your neighbour as yourself. Ther are of course many other practices mentioned, particualarly in Leviticus and of course the dietary laws and the festivals are fairly well known.

The Jews by Jesus' time followed all sorts of customs and traditions, some scripturally based and others not. The Sabbath instruction for instance had been transformed by the religious leaders into the most absurd complex list of 'do nots' by the religious leaders and Jesus was very critical of such things.

Jesus' ministry was to the Jews. Paul's ministry was to Gentiles (like us). That is why they are so different. They were to completely different audiences! If you read the New Testament, you will see the argument about whether Gentile Christians should follow Jewish practices (like men being cirumcised and following the dietary laws etc.). The resolution of this is no they should not. If you are a Messianic Jew that may be different (many do follow many of the Jewish customs still as christians).

Israel is a secular state although it does tend to shut down on Friday night/Saturday (the Jewish Sabbath). Most Israelis are as secular as most westernised people (including of course many Jews in other countries). They often follow religious customs but not necessarily with any great belief behind them.

regards,

Gordon.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Thanks Gordon,
I have heard similar explanations before but I have, so far, been unable to figure out how this really makes any sense, at least in my own mind!

The essence of the Law of the Old Testament was essentially the ten commandments. Jesus summarised them into two: Love God, Love your neighbour as yourself. Ther are of course many other practices mentioned, particualarly in Leviticus and of course the dietary laws and the festivals are fairly well known.

The Jews by Jesus' time followed all sorts of customs and traditions, some scripturally based and others not. The Sabbath instruction for instance had been transformed by the religious leaders into the most absurd complex list of 'do nots' by the religious leaders and Jesus was very critical of such things.

I still have some basic problems with this idea. I agree that Jesus summarized the Ten Commandments into two: Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself. I understand that. What I don’t understand is how some of the other Laws in the Old Testament have anything at all to do with this “Love” that Jesus is saying is really there.

For Example: Here is a very tiny list of “scriptural based” Laws, which clearly instruct you to kill your own children. Now are these really examples of “Love your neighbor”? There are far too many scripture examples to even attempt to list them all here so to be merciful to you, here are only three.

1. All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Would you kill you own child over a few words said in anger? Are you supposed to “Love your neighbor” even if he curses you but kill your own son if he does the same? Let me answer for you! No, you would not. And because you would not you would have broken this Law yourself.

2. A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

I guess, sadly, even the priests of God were required to kill their own children over one mistake. If you were a priest would you kill your daughter over this? No, you would not! Ooops! You just broke another Law. What would be your penalty for not killing your own daughter? Are you getting the drift here?

3. "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

If your very own son was a homosexual would you kill him? Maybe you would! I don’t know! I would not! I could not! At least you might just save your own skin from this "wonderful" community of bloodthirsty killers you would be living in. They would be your own family members. You better be careful, your family is watching you! And they will not hesitate to kill you, without mercy, if they see you make one little mistake! That would make a nice, loving, nurturing environment to raise your own children in. Don't you think?

Just for fun: Pretend I posted another twenty or thirty examples here!

These Laws are usually presented as if they came directly from God Himself. So, Gordon, are you really willing to kill your own children? I am definitely not! Are we supposed to “Love our Neighbor” and thereby kill them with our love. Even your own child? Is that how it works?

Are these laws from men or God? Do they look at all like they are from the same God who said “Love your Neighbor”? I think that they are from the minds of twisted men.

Jesus' ministry was to the Jews. Paul's ministry was to Gentiles (like us). That is why they are so different. They were to completely different audiences! If you read the New Testament, you will see the argument about whether Gentile Christians should follow Jewish practices (like men being circumcised and following the dietary laws etc.). The resolution of this is no they should not. If you are a Messianic Jew that may be different (many do follow many of the Jewish customs still as christians).

So, are you saying there are two gospels, one gospel for the Jews and another gospel for the Gentiles?
I thought there was only one gospel. I am about 1/8th Jewish by blood. Should I follow the gospel of Jesus or Paul?

Sorry!

 

[lightgigantic]

I'm not accusing him of anything!
And what he's teaching (beying one with god and god as the whole existence) is a major mythological thought known in many regions throughout the world and time, and very ancient at that too (it originated in the first planting societies and possibly among the jungle gatherer people).
At the time of Jesus it was especially vividly flowering in buddhism and hinduism (upanishads and maha yana buddhism), and some centuries before Jesus buddhists had been sending misionaries to Europe (Egypt, Greece, Malta, Macedonia).
Look at the full worldwide mythological picture. There is nothing really original in christianity, it fits in an already existing theme.

You have a very scewed perception of what I said, maybe because you're too entangled in your dogma.

If you want to examine mythologies you should examine the basis for the empirical evidence that you utilise as a basis for presenting your colourful picture of history

 

[Avatar]

Do you claim to be a telepath to know what I've examined and what not? :bugeye:
Either post your counterarguments or stay silent forever.
If I'll see them as serious, I'll reply.

 

[lightgigantic]

Do you claim to be a telepath to know what I've examined and what not? :bugeye:
Either post your counterarguments or stay silent forever.
If I'll see them as serious, I'll reply.

I am not telepathic but I would say at a guess that you are relying on eurocentric compositions that owe their credence to persons like Max Meuller and the like

 

[The Devil Inside]

why is it so hard for people to see that "catholic flavored" christianity, and all it's decendants are contrary to what jesus taught?
ugh.

 

[Godless]

John 10:30: "I and my Father are one."

John 14:9: Jesus says, "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father."

Thomas 77: Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Sorry to burst your buble, but those quotes are "OUT OF CONTEXT"

Couldn't resist!

 

[Vega]

Breaking news: Jesus was a black man from ethiopia!
just like michael jackson....used to be!