Jesus claimed to be God, so did Jesus exist, and was he a liar or lunatic?
- Thread starter roarshack
- Start date
False choice.
Or that he existed, but due to the nature of religious texts, what he said and what he did was largely scored out of the Bible due to preference of myth over fact.
They had the right idea though... If they had written down everything that was known to be true, there wouldn't be 2 billion people in the world (or whatever) who think he is their savior.
They had the right idea though... If they had written down everything that was known to be true, there wouldn't be 2 billion people in the world (or whatever) who think he is their savior.
Jesus never claimed he was God. Jesus said he was the Son of man, and that we are the children of God. Jesus did not write the "King James" version of the bible. Jesus was a Jew, he had nothing to do with Christianity.roarshack said:
but jesus cant rebound.Novacane said:So is Dennis Rodman!
that is apparent by his absence of the last 2000 years.
Mosheh Thezion
Registered Senior Member
doesnt matter if he was black, or insane.... he was right, most of the time.
and all the times people try to say he was wrong... are clearly argueable, based on the context within which he said it, and so, in the final analysis,, which can never be reached becauses of mans in-exhautable will to argue... in the final analysis, there is no flaw in JESUS, that anyone can prove... he was for all intended purposes.. a perfect male human being.... a perfect role model... a perfect example.
it doesnt matter if he was fiction.... he is still.. by design, the best example of what we all have the potential to be like.
perfect, and without sin... giving your life to the benefit of others.
-MT
and all the times people try to say he was wrong... are clearly argueable, based on the context within which he said it, and so, in the final analysis,, which can never be reached becauses of mans in-exhautable will to argue... in the final analysis, there is no flaw in JESUS, that anyone can prove... he was for all intended purposes.. a perfect male human being.... a perfect role model... a perfect example.
it doesnt matter if he was fiction.... he is still.. by design, the best example of what we all have the potential to be like.
perfect, and without sin... giving your life to the benefit of others.
-MT
If any one knows the Book Of John and why the Teachers were upset by Jesus, then we can talk...the reason He died on a Roman cross was the He claimed, among other things,,,,,,,,He said If you have seen me you have seen the Father, and He went around forgiving sin.......Hello...only God can forgive sin..they had to call for His death because that was the punishment for claiming to be God.....Noone else made this claim, only Jesus and His followers who totally changed the world ,so they were lunatics, and they freed billions of billions and they founded the USA and gave you Liberty and Security like the World has never seen,,,these lunatic followers of Christ, the Jew, The Rabi, the Savior.....and those lunatics were called Christians because the followed Him, THE CHRIST.......and it sounds odd...unless you read the text and study what has happened because He came to earth and restarted the clock and now 2006 BC we are still praying for His quick return any telling those who have ears to hear and eyes to see, that This Jesus is still changing the world, one Heart at a time
uh..no.
or yes.
whatever.
or yes.
whatever.
roarshack said:
He was killed for a number of reasons. One of them was that He, “as God”, was teaching the Jews to reject the very Laws that “God” had given them in the Old Testament, as if they were bad, or wrong, or evil. And I would agree with the idea that some of them were bad, and wrong, and even evil.
God supposedly gave the nation of Israel many eternal Laws in the Old Testament that had to be obeyed or you would just be stoned to death. There are many wonderful examples of the “spiritual” darkness that the Old Testament Laws brought about. One man was killed without mercy for simply picking up sticks on the Sabbath. There are quite a number of Laws that require you to kill your own children and other family members “without mercy”. There is even a Law which allows you to sell your own daughter as a sex slave. It’s a beautiful day in the neighborhood! There are many others!
And then Jesus shows up on the Jewish scene, claims to be their God and then basically tells them not to follow many of the Laws that God had already given them. I agree with Him, some of them should not be followed! But, this alone was probably a pretty clear indicator, to the Jewish mind anyway, that Jesus was not the God He claimed to be. Their God!
In direct contradiction to this Jesus, “as God”, also kept telling the Jews that the Law was good and should be obeyed. He even told them that unless they kept the commandments and precepts of the Old Testament they would end up in hell, a place which, I think, did not even exist in their Old Testament scriptures. Can someone please correct me on this if I am wrong?
Paul contradicts Jesus all over the place on this and tells everyone that you do not have to keep the Law at all. But then, Paul even contradicts Paul on this. Basically, you have to decide to follow either Jesus or Jesus or Paul or Paul. Choose Jesus and you come under Paul’s condemnation. Choose Paul and you come under the condemnation of Jesus. It’s a lose, lose, situation. Most people today, choose Paul and are condemned by Jesus. Paul’s way is an easier more feel good way to shirk yourself of almost all of the responsibility of your own wrongful actions. This is guilt free living at its finest! Sinning without either guilt or condemnation! Ooops! This is also known as the broad way that leads to destruction that Jesus talked about. Something smells fishy to me, at least.
I have never been able to figure this mess out. Perhaps Jesus was God, and the Old Testament Laws were evil and were never given by God at all, but are only the inventions of men. This might make at least some sense???? Or maybe it is all just a fabricated story! I do not know!
By the way, does anyone know if the current day nation of Israel is still operating under the Old Testament Law or have even they rejected it?
Sorry for the preaching!
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Why do you think that the God Jesus is talking about is the same god of the jews: Jahve?
Jewish god is a tribalistic deity, even today jews are a tribal society. You are born a jew, you don't become one. Christianity (like Buddhism, Islam, and some others) is an everyman's phylosophy and religion.
Christianity (and some others) is a world religion with one god for the whole world and as the whole world, but Jahve is just a god of the Jews (they had others, but those are forgotten and abandoned now).
There's an old christian gnostic saying that goes something like this: "The mistake of Jahve is that he thinks himself to be God."
I.e., Jahve saw only himself and not the transcendent mystery of the universe that he symbolised as a metaphor.
p.s. I'm neither a supporter of christianity or jewish faith, just pointing out to the distinction that many people are not aware of.
Jewish god is a tribalistic deity, even today jews are a tribal society. You are born a jew, you don't become one. Christianity (like Buddhism, Islam, and some others) is an everyman's phylosophy and religion.
Christianity (and some others) is a world religion with one god for the whole world and as the whole world, but Jahve is just a god of the Jews (they had others, but those are forgotten and abandoned now).
There's an old christian gnostic saying that goes something like this: "The mistake of Jahve is that he thinks himself to be God."
I.e., Jahve saw only himself and not the transcendent mystery of the universe that he symbolised as a metaphor.
p.s. I'm neither a supporter of christianity or jewish faith, just pointing out to the distinction that many people are not aware of.
Avatar said:
The Jews seemed to think that Jesus claimed to be their very God. According to the Bible, that is probably the primary reason they had Him crucified. He claimed to be the very "I AM", a term they have always associated with Jehovah God. Unless I am really out to lunch, which I sometimes wonder about myself, this is a major, cornerstone doctrine, of the current day Christian church. What reason do you have for thinking differently, I really want to know!
Thank You Avatar!
I say it's a false choice because Jesus had a different conception of God than you. It is crazy to think of yourself as an all powerful superhuman being, to the exclusion of all others. It is not crazy to concieve of everything as aspects of God, and yourself as an integral part of the same force that expresses itself as trees, flowers, earth, wind, water, ect...roarshack said:
I think Jesus did claim to be God, but I think he would have claimed the same thing of you and I as well.
SetiAlpha6 said:
The jews probably thought so, because they had no concept of another god existing. The others were called devils and demons. So if Jesus told "I am God", they immediately would have thought that he is referring to their tribal deity Jahve.
I'm talking about society here, not some learned individuals, and it was a mob opinion that screwed Jesus over.
Jesus didn't claim to be Jahve, did he? He claimed to be God. I remember of no place in the New Testament, where he says "I am Jahve" or "I am the god of the jews",
If you analyze the New and Old testament together, you'd most likely come to realize that Jesus is talking not about the god of the old testament, but about a god that is the whole world.
Gnostics understood that and in the beginning there were two branches of christianity. Those who thought that Jesus was talking about Jahve, and those that thought that Christianity is a completely new faith that has very little to do with jew faith, except for that it too originated among the jew people.
This is a primitive division, there are other differences, but this is the part for my point.
But Roman state chose the traditionalists (so to say), that is catholics, because their idea could be better used as a crowd control tool to hold the falling Roman empire together.
While Christ asked people to find god in themselves, catholics told people to go seek god in the church. And if you control the church, you control the people.
Why do you think so many holy writings were excluded from the bible?
A few centuries later catholics started to kill gnostics.
Nowaday christianity is not really christianity, it is catholicism, it is babtism, it is lutheranism, but it is not christianity as Jesus tought it.
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Avatar said:
This is a new perspective for me. And I do not have enough knowledge in this area, myself, to know if any of this is accurate. Do you have evidence for any of these things? Are there any websites or books I can go to that will help me investigate this perspective further?
Thanks!