Jenyar:
He did not kill them all, only the firstborn - and after that only those who pursued Israel through the Red Sea.
Funny really, I was kind of hanging onto the hope that you would get the gist of what I was saying. Still while we're here.. These Egyptians would have supposedly have been gods children aswell, (we are all the same creation), and yet he directly involved himself in human affairs. Might I ask why he doesn't now? I mean, why doesn't he come down and kill all, (or only firstborn), muslims, (for instance), when they bomb his "chosen" people? Oh wait.. they're not his chosen people anymore. They have been disowned.
That does not mean Egypt are simply excluded from God's favour:
Isaiah 19:24-25 In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth.
Damn, I don't see England in that statement.
Israel could not expect preferential treatment because they were counted as God's children, in fact, that made them more accountable in God's eyes.
Oh right.. How many other cultures slaves did god free while annihilating the enemies for them?
They would be protected if they followed Him, not otherwise. This is where the jealousy of God comes in: He would not tolerate them having other gods besides Him.
Yeah, and that is in no way likened to your bird in the nest analogy. That simply shows bad parenting.
Why should I debate it? God kills every single person on the planet, eventually. Nobody does not die. But He also gives life - twice over. The first birth you have no choice in, the second birth is yours to choose.
You know, I've always been curious about that.. When everyone's finally annihilated by god and he decides to give some of you "new life" in a new golden jersualem, (although hopefully looking nothing like Jerusalem), what will you all look like?
I mean.. will you be born from 0, all be 30, or all be the ages you were when you died? If you all come out as handsome 30 year olds, wont it be somewhat odd looking at your mother, father and grandparents who are exactly the same age as you? It would certainly freak me out.
I'm also curious to know if you would have any memories of your former life, (I assume you must otherwise you wouldn't even recognise your loved ones). Would you, for instance, have memory of the crippling and body eating plague that god gave you, or would memories like that be lost?
I did not say "us" - God protects those who belong to Him by choice - and certainly not by "killing us". You put that clause in.
No I didn't. In your very last statement,
you said: "God kills every single person on the planet" and yet here you are now trying to debate against it.
We can also go back to your first statements concerning the slaughtered Egyptians, or stop on nearly any page in the OT where god goes about killing someone, (who you might claim he is "'protecting' like a bird in a nest"). You go on to say that: "He protects us so that we can have a life beyond the nest, as adults; and not by letting us have our cherished gods", which is the point - because the minute someone cherished those other gods, your gods version of protection came out as mass murder and most likely eternal damnation. Are you telling me that is a bird looking after it's young?
Our false gods - money, power, success, luck; you name them - keep us complacent and unwilling to accept God's life.
Oh I see, and as a result of that, to find god we need to be poor, unsuccessful, and unlucky? Doesn't a parent want the best for his children? Not
only what's best overall, but in every instance of their life? And so if one of his children happens to have worked hard and earnt a lot of money, isn't that a good thing for him? Sure, eventually your children will "leave the nest", and find their own way. Just because they go in a direction we specifically don't understand or appreciate, does that mean we it's right to kill them and damn them forever?
The fact is that if you are loving and present, then a child will always respect you no matter if he has money, luck and success or not. If you think that's how you earn love and respect, then I sincerely hope you do not have children. If a child abandons you, does that mean you abandon him back? Only if you're a lousy parent.
today we give gods different names, and although they may be more abstract, more complicated, more "civilized", they are no less real to people. They are anything that promise you what only God can give; anything that leads us away from Him. Parasites that feed off our minds and bodies are "predators" too.
The purpose of this life is what exactly? You are seemingly promoting the idea that we all just sit here and do nothing. That we don't have fun, don't be successful, etc etc etc. That's really quite perverse. I assume you work, and earn money to put food on the table. That alone is taking you away from god. You are dependant upon that job to feed you when you should be dependant upon god to feed you. So either god expects you to be a puppet and do nothing, letting him do it all for you, (perhaps dropping food down from the sky as featured in the bible), or does god expect you to achieve, to use your own effort to work and get food and so on, (i.e succeed)? Some undoubtedly earn more than others, but how does that take them anymore away from god than anyone else? If you believe in god, it wouldn't make a difference how much you earn. Take priests for example who earn shitloads. Does it take them away from god? If so, why go and listen to them? If not, how would money be a false god and something to avoid?
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Water:
Indeed!
William, unrot yourself and get out of the grave, you need to write a novel! Dude, you wrote only tragedies, comedies and those lustful ditties -- but now you need to write a novel too! Come on! Time to get modern!
That's so sweet. You remind me of my 5 year old. Please, don't let me stop you acting like a child.
I'm sorry Water, did you actually have something to say or were you just trying to impress me by acting like a prick?
Love is meaningless? You don't love your wife and daughter, or you don't think much about the emotions you have for them -- you think those emotions are meaningless? Petty?
Dude, go back and read what I wrote again. Although I will admit my English can cause some confusion given that I'm a Londoner, I would have hoped you could grasp the context of what I was saying. If you're still struggling, let me know and I'll provide further details.
So all you see that there could be to God is power, might is right?
I think you are talking about nature, not about God.
Eh? I didn't use the excuse. Adstar said: "Now God can be Jealous without a problem, He can Kill without a problem, Because He is God."
I merely responded to how that is just plain wrong, (from a human perspective - because I am a human).
Am I missing something? Now you've got me confused. 1-1.
Free will is given by God.
Says who?
You equate guidance with (pre)determination.
From the quote you used, I didn't equate anything with anything. I asked three questions to the guy who told me we need to follow god's guidance to avoid damaging others. I then asked him how stoning your naughty son to death, (if you follow that guidance he says we need to follow), in any way helps avoiding damage to others.
I thought the issue was worth claryfing with him. Your personal opinion has also been noted, but I would prefer his reply.
Do you think that in order to be free, to choose whatever guidance you wish, there should be no laws?
Humans have created human laws to deal with humans, (from a human perspective). In general they help man get along with each other. However, if tomorrow a new law was put in place that told me I need to stone my son to death if he was naughty, I would certainly have issue with it. Any consequence of not obeying that I would happily put up with. I guess everyone pretty much agrees, 'cause even the god followers ignore him on that one. They too shall face the consequences of their disobedience in due time.
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Cole Grey:
1)A woman's husband cheats on her, she is has protective feelings for her relationship that is suffering, these feelings are called "jealousy" - they are not condemned by sane people. **this definition fits exodus (although as you should be intelligent enough to understand, God is not a super man, so this definition probably doesn't exactly fit, I'll just say it is close)**
Would it be condemned if she then went and killed him and everyone else in the vicinity?
2) A co-worker gets a pay bonus, you don't, you have envious feelings of their reward which you didn't get because you didn't deserve one, or the boss is better friends with the co-worker. The feelings of self-pity and envy are called "jealousy". **this definition fits James**
Would it be condemned if you then went and killed your co-worker and everyone else in the vicinity?
#1 is ok, #2 is not. Not ipse dixit, because God said it, but because it makes sense.
What's wrong about being envious that someone else earns more than you do? (as long as it doesn't lead to the slaughter of everyone in the vicinity).
Your problem is that you look at the bible with the following mentality, "the way I explain the passages makes the bible appear senseless, so that must be the way the bible is meant to be understood, because the bible doesn't make sense."
What dark orifice did you extract this statement from? Nowhere have I said, or even implied, that it doesn't make sense. god says he's jealous and then kills everyone because they wont worship him. I point this out, and have all the religious people tell me that:
1) god can do whatever he wants because he's god and
2) I'm not allowed to be a human if I want to understand god, because he isn't a human, (although then giving that very same being all the other human qualities such as love etc)
Basically they've turned sense into nonsense.
Nice seeing you.