Japanese N-Plant Explosion

There is no such thing as "the" natural background rate, as the wide fluctuations in the readings demonstrates. The question is the change in rate in the given locations.

Clearly there is, by area.
They have been monitoring radiation levels for a long period of time and have recorded it at a fairly granular level (data is available at the Perfecture level), and they have many readings within each Perfecture, so they know both the normal range and the highest normal background radiation over time and they are using that to compare to what they are reading now, and again, with multiple readings within each Perfecture.

http://www.mext.go.jp/english/radioactivity_level/detail/1303986.htm

Conclusions that rest on assumed even dispersion from the reactor - that do not explicitly allow for plumes and hot spots and temporary fluctuations - are not trustworthy.

And no one is making any such assumptions.

This shows the mapping they are doing >20 km from the plant (they aren't doing it <20 km yet)

http://www.mext.go.jp/component/english/__icsFiles/afieldfile/2011/04/06/1304690_040519.pdf

And clearly there are hotter stations on that NW line (see 31, 32, 33 & 79, 81, 83), but they are aware of them.

Flucuations are more obvious here, and the timing depended on if you were South or North of the station:

http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news_images/pdf/ENGNEWS01_1302054182P.pdf

Arthur
 
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adoucette said:
There is no such thing as "the" natural background rate, as the wide fluctuations in the readings demonstrates. The question is the change in rate in the given locations.

Clearly there is, by area.
And by time?

Then it isn't .1 throughout, as you claimed.
adoucette said:
Conclusions that rest on assumed even dispersion from the reactor - that do not explicitly allow for plumes and hot spots and temporary fluctuations - are not trustworthy.

And no one is making any such assumptions.
Then they won't be drawing any such conclusions? Good. A welcome change, to look forward to.
 
Which points to the kind of thing you would have been addressing, had you been addressing my actual arguments and observations in this thread.

It's certainly possible to argue that TEPCO was not releasing a typically worded, false framed, standard false reassurance of the kind we have seen so many times in these nuclear industry disasters. But that would require addressing the issue of how such press releases are arrived at and who their intended audience is. It would require some attention to what was actually meant and understood, by the authors and audience, by the phrase "normal environmental conditions" and its role in such press releases (not some total bullshit about placer deposits somewhere). And it would pivot on the word "therefore", as I have throughout here.
It would also require considering the original Japanese text, not the translated english text. And you still haven't grapsed the significance of the argument regarding natural plutonium, have you.

Notice that the TEPCO press release could have simply delivered the information: that the bad stuff levels measured were still within bomb residue levels and not hugely augmented by reactor effluent. No conclusions about harm were necessary or even indicated: they had good news to report.
Which is what they said - had you bothered to look up the original source for yourself.

Not silly ass faux pedantry like this: . In terms of toxicology communication is by published scientific paper, not press release and media statement.
This is a red herring, and a 'weak analogy'.
Do you think the information regarding the toxicology relevant to the bauxite dam burst in Romania (I think it was Romania anyway) was communicated to the public in Scientific papers, or in the local press?

Do you think that the public in general has access to, or could understand a scientific paper on toxicology?

Do you think that the residents of Bhopal in India relied on scientific papers for information about what was going on, or the local media?

Do you not think that the public in general understand the difference between a minor health risk and a major one?

Your assertion is absurd in the extreme.

So far, you have presented not a single piece of evidence relevant to my arguments here. Nothing.
Bullshit.

There is no such thing as "the" natural background rate, as the wide fluctuations in the readings demonstrates. The question is the change in rate in the given locations.
Yes there is, both in each region, and globally, where the global rate could be reported as an average and a range IE: "The natural background rate of X to Y".
 
And by time?

Then it isn't .1 throughout, as you claimed.

Your obsession with irrelevent minutia followed by your attempts to score meaningless debate points is so pathetically juvenile as to be worthy of a long ban....
 
Your obsession with irrelevent minutia followed by your attempts to score meaningless debate points is so pathetically juvenile as to be worthy of a long ban....

A little harsh perhaps, having an opinion is not usually a cause for a banning unless it's rude!

Edit* besides Arthur, minutii and pedantry are your normal style, not that there's anything wrong with that, it makes people have to do their research properly!
 
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Reports from TEPCO are that nitrogen has been injected into reactor No.1. This is to help prevent a possible hydrogen explosion caused by the water level dropping to below half the height of the nuclear fuel rods. The water level in the basement has apparently risen since the leak into the sluice was fixed. I thought that this was likely, and comes as no surprise.
TEPCO are also due to dump the last of the radioactive water at sea to make room for more highly contaminated water from the turbine hall.
 
Japan had an earthquake of 7.4 today. TEPCO report further damage to the troubled Fukujima plant.
 
Hmmm?

AS OF 11:30 A.M. EDT, THURSDAY, APRIL 7:
A 7.1 magnitude aftershock in northeastern Japan today caused no damage to nuclear power plants in the area, the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency reported

and

Seismic activity remains elevated, with another earthquake of magnitude 7.4 today just before midnight. It produced a tsunami with a peak height at the shore of about two metres. The wave at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant would have been about 50 centimetres
 
trippy said:
It would also require considering the original Japanese text, not the translated english text.
If the original text was Japanese, sure - something else not done by the poster here. But my point about the false reassurance of such language holds for all media releases, translated or straight.

trippy said:
And you still haven't grapsed the significance of the argument regarding natural plutonium, have you.
I brought it up, in the first place, because of its significance.

It doesn't naturally occur in soil. Its presence in soil is not "normal environmental conditions" from which safety can be inferred. It is bomb and power plant residue, and we have only a couple of generations of experience and some fairly problematic "research" to inform us of its hazards.
trippy said:
Do you think the information regarding the toxicology relevant to the bauxite dam burst in Romania (I think it was Romania anyway) was communicated to the public in Scientific papers, or in the local press?

Do you think that the public in general has access to, or could understand a scientific paper on toxicology?

Do you think that the residents of Bhopal in India relied on scientific papers for information about what was going on, or the local media?
Hello? You really have a very hard time with these very simple arguments.

I can't dumb it down any more. You are just going to have to reread, and figure this stuff out for yourself. Here's the short version: whether or not "toxicology" has some firm definitions of major vs minor harm to people, is completely irrelevant in this thread. When you brought it up, you were missing the point, and wasting your time.
trippy said:
Do you not think that the public in general understand the difference between a minor health risk and a major one?
Not as the terms appear in a nuclear industry's media packages, no. Furthermore, I think a certain amount of obcurity is intended: I don't think TEPCO has any interest in drawing that line firmly for a while.
trippy said:
So far, you have presented not a single piece of evidence relevant to my arguments here. Nothing.

Bullshit.
Not at all. Reread for yourself, following the arguments this time. This is your continual contribution:
trippy said:
There is no such thing as "the" natural background rate, as the wide fluctuations in the readings demonstrates. The question is the change in rate in the given locations.

Yes there is, both in each region, and globally, where the global rate could be reported as an average and a range IE:
Now reread the post you responded to, in context as part of a "discussion" with adoucette, and realize why my first response to reading that kind of shit from you is: Fucking clueless, or what?
adoucette said:
Your obsession with irrelevent minutia
Granted you being wrong again is not very important in the larger scheme of things. But my points about the nature and measurements of "natural background radiation" vs bomb residue are not minutia, especially if the topic is the safety of nuclear power plants and the framing of false reassurances thereof.
 
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If the original text was Japanese, sure - something else not done by the poster here. But my point about the false reassurance of such language holds for all media releases, translated or straight.
Right, I forgot.
You're American, and left wing. You're utterly incapable of original thought, completely lack curiosity, and expect to be spoonfed.

I brought it up, in the first place, because of its significance.
You stated that it was anthropogenic.

It doesn't naturally occur in soil. Its presence in soil is not "normal environmental conditions" from which safety can be inferred. It is bomb and power plant residue, and we have only a couple of generations of experience and some fairly problematic "research" to inform us of its hazards.
Bullshit. I just got through demonstrating that it does (or can be expected to) occur in the soil under normal environmental conditions. And I'm sorry, I forgot, you'll only accept leeches as medicinal technology.

Hello? You really have a very hard time with these very simple arguments.
I'm not the one having trouble understanding arguments here, you are. You demonstrably can not even retain context within a single post, let alone multiple posts. Frankly, the only mystery here is why I continue to waste my time addressing your inane drivel. This next bit is a prime example.

I can't dumb it down any more. You are just going to have to reread, and figure this stuff out for yourself. Here's the short version: whether or not "toxicology" has some firm definitions of major vs minor harm to people, is completely irrelevant in this thread. When you brought it up, you were missing the point, and wasting your time.
And I don't know how to dumb it down any further for you. Most people with an IQ above 80 can grasp the conceptual difference between a minor symptomn and a major symptomn. And that's without going into the cultural background - which is an issue here, inspite of your uninformed moronic handwaving. Again, I don't know how to dumb it down for you any further eastern medicine divides things into a little bad for you, and a lot bad for you, depending on the severity of the symptoms.

Not as the terms appear in a nuclear industry's media packages, no. Furthermore, I think a certain amount of obcurity is intended: I don't think TEPCO has any interest in drawing that line firmly for a while.
And I think you're full of shit, and teh sole problem here is your inability to seperate the facts from your politics, your lack of scientific understanding of the matters at hand, not to mention your bullish approach and utter refusal to consider anything from any perspective other than an american anglophone.

Not at all. Reread for yourself, following the arguments this time. This is your continual contribution: Now reread the post you responded to, in context as part of a "discussion" with adoucette, and realize why my first response to reading that kind of shit from you is: Fucking clueless, or what?
This is just fucking rich coming from you.

You'll excuse me if I have better things to do with my Friday evening than talk to you.
 
Seeing as how, Iceaura, you so obviously lack the curiosity and the skill to track downn the original Japanese textfor yourself.

Here it is:
○検出状況について
・今回のプルトニウムは発電所の敷地内の土壌から検出されたものである。
・検出されたプルトニウムの濃度は過去の大気圏内核実験において国内で観測され
 たフォールアウトと同様のレベルである。
・プルトニウムの同位体の放射能比からみて、今回採取された5点のうち2点のプ
 ルトニウムについては過去の大気圏内核実験に由来するものではなく、今回の事
 象に由来して放出された可能性がある。
・今回検出されたプルトニウムは、通常の環境土壌中の濃度レベルであり、人体に
 問題となるものではない。なお、念のため発電所構内およびその周辺の環境モニ
 タリングを強化する。
・さらに新規に3点の土壌を採取し、継続的に分析を行っていくこととする。
 
trippy said:
If the original text was Japanese, sure - something else not done by the poster here. But my point about the false reassurance of such language holds for all media releases, translated or straight.

Right, I forgot.
You're American, and left wing. You're utterly incapable of original thought, completely lack curiosity, and expect to be spoonfed.
? The larger Japanese corporate PR departments routinely release English documents to the world press, as originals. Such documents are not necessarily translations, do not necessarily have the same information or wording as the companion domestic press releases, and

the main point

it makes no difference - none at all, completely irrelevant - to my argument. You are the one pivoting your shit on technical definitions of words like "major" and "minor". You go off and deal with translation issues between the Japanese and world media, if they matter to you, but leave me out of it.
trippy said:
You stated that it was anthropogenic.
Stick to quoting. I don't know what you mean by "it", I suspect you of more slippery and dishonest language (as when you claimed I denied plutonium's natural existence), and the point involved is critical.
trippy said:
Bullshit. I just got through demonstrating that it does (or can be expected to) occur in the soil under normal environmental conditions.
The difference between "does" and "can be expected to" is key here. You merge them, and you miss that key point - once again.

My claim (a very minor intro to an observation and point) was that plutonium is not found in soil under normal environmental conditions - as a physical fact of the planet earth. That was a grandiose overstatement - (far more than I needed for my argument, and not the argument itself, which you have never addressed) - but it's holding up surprisingly well. You have been unable to discover even single, small, irrelevant, symbolic counterexamples.

And if you ever do, I will simply and cheerfully specify them, and admit however many rare and irrelevant exceptions there may be to that grandiose overstatement. I don't give a flying fuck whether there are traces of natural soil plutonium in the floodplain downstream of a uranium deposit somewhere in Africa, and nothing in my arguments here rests on their absence.

Why are you beating this irrelevancy to death, and ignoring the argument?
trippy said:
Most people with an IQ above 80 can grasp the conceptual difference between a minor symptomn and a major symptomn.
So? More support for my argument - I claim TEPCO is counting on that public "conception".
trippy said:
You'll excuse me if I have better things to do with my Friday evening than talk to you.
Your cessation of this garbage is long overdue.
 
it makes no difference - none at all, completely irrelevant - to my argument. You are the one pivoting your shit on technical definitions of words like "major" and "minor".
Bogus nonsense. Your argument is one of semantics and pedantism therefore the precise context and usage of these words absolutely matters. You just don't like it, because when one considers the precise usage of these words in the common, professional, and cultural context of the situation, your argument falls flat on its face.

You go off and deal with translation issues between the Japanese and world media, if they matter to you, but leave me out of it.
Awww, now that you've been spoonfed you've had a change of heart. How cute.

Stick to quoting. I don't know what you mean by "it", I suspect you of more slippery and dishonest language (as when you claimed I denied plutonium's natural existence), and the point involved is critical.
As I have said before, you can't even retain context across a single post. Thankyou for so aptly demonstrating this once again.

The difference between "does" and "can be expected to" is key here. You merge them, and you miss that key point - once again.
This is bogus, and simply reflects your lack of understanding of the mechanisms involved in soil genesis, and the arguments that I've presented to you. There's another possible reason for the use of 'Can be expected to' that you obviously haven't figured out yet that renders your statement nonsensical.

My claim (a very minor intro to an observation and point) was that plutonium is not found in soil under normal environmental conditions - as a physical fact of the planet earth. That was a grandiose overstatement - (far more than I needed for my argument, and not the argument itself, which you have never addressed) - but it's holding up surprisingly well.
Right, so you aknowledge my point then. It was a Grandiose overstatement.

You have been unable to discover even single, small, irrelevant, symbolic counterexamples.
This is just bullshit, and you know it.
At this point, you're argument relies on the assertions that "Elements found in bedrock do not, can not, and will not leach into overlying soils" and "Elements contained in mineral deposits within soils do not, can not, and will not leach into soils".

As yet another example of how your assertion is generally bogus, tell me, are you familiar with the primary objection to mining heavy mineral sands?

And if you ever do, I will simply and cheerfully specify them, and admit however many rare and irrelevant exceptions there may be to that grandiose overstatement. I don't give a flying fuck whether there are traces of natural soil plutonium in the floodplain downstream of a uranium deposit somewhere in Africa, and nothing in my arguments here rests on their absence.
Yeah it does, and I didn't say anything about floodplains in Africa.

Why are you beating this irrelevancy to death, and ignoring the argument?
You're the one that bought the inaccurate grandiose overstatement back into the conversation. I've already mentioned what I would be willing to accept as an accurate rephrasing.

So? More support for my argument - I claim TEPCO is counting on that public "conception".
BUllshit, because it's not the same thing as asserting that it's safe.

Besides which, you're still missing the point that the statement boils down to "3 of the 5 samples have nothing to do with the recent events, and the other two samples have concentrations that are in the range found elsewhere in the soil as a result of atmospheric testing during the cold war".

Incidentally, this is where considering the original Japanese text has proved illuminating, there's a couple of phrases, which don't appear in any of the english translations. Basically, from my limited ability to understand such things, the phrasing seems a lot more explicit in the Japanese versions than it is in any of the english translations I've seen. The more I look at the Japanese text and the range of possible translations (for example, there's 8 different ways of writing normal, depending on its usage - or, perhaps more correctly, there's 8 different ways of translating Normal into Japanese).

The long and the short of it is that the phrase "通常の環境" can also (AFAIK anyway) be translated as "Normal circumstances" "Under normal circumstances" or "Normal environment" but is specifically and explicitly placed in the contest of the fallout Japan has experienced from atmospheric nuclear testing.

Frankly your lack of curiosity amazes, amuses, and apalls me. On the one side you seem hell bent on asserting that TEPCO is unreliable, and concealing stuff, and yet on the other hand you seem to be asserting that we should rely on their translators to form our opinions.

So... TEPCO is inept and deceitful, but the translators they employ to appease the western media aren't?

Addendum - there are other limitations as well that are specific to Japanese language, that don't apply in English - for example, press releases are limited to about 2000 of the 40,000 kanji available (including historical references).

Your cessation of this garbage is long overdue.
Something about sauce, geese, and ganders.
Don't forget:
1. You started it.
2. I have made several quite reasonable posts, giving you the opportunity to resume a rational, apolitcal discourse, to which you have responded with inane accusations.

You can dish it, but, apparently, you can't take it.
 
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trippy said:
1. You started it.
No, I didn't.
trippy said:
2. I have made several quite reasonable posts, giving you the opportunity to resume a rational, apolitcal discourse, to which you have responded with inane accusations.
No, you haven't. You've been focusing on irrelevancies, misrepresentations, and insult, and derailed the thread accordingly. None of this crap you're yakking about is my argument, or my initiative.
trippy said:
Right, so you aknowledge my point then. It was a Grandiose overstatement
No, that wasn't your point. That would have been a valid point, and possibly relevant to my argument. You missed a bet - but then, you had no interest in my actual argument, so it was easy to miss.

Your point was that it was false, not grandiose, and you appear to be wrong about that. It was correct, apparently - somewhat to my surprise, since it wasn't anything important to my argument or checked in detail by me. I'm kind of amused, actually.

Now, for a complete change of subject: about my actual argument - any thoughts? It's still waiting, pages back.

Hint: this
At this point, you're argument relies on the assertions that "Elements found in bedrock do not, can not, and will not leach into overlying soils" and "Elements contained in mineral deposits within soils do not, can not, and will not leach into soils".
is not my argument, and is total bullshit - more than that, it's dishonest. You aren't that stupid.

Worse:
trippy said:
Frankly your lack of curiosity amazes, amuses, and apalls me. On the one side you seem hell bent on asserting that TEPCO is unreliable, and concealing stuff, and yet on the other hand you seem to be asserting that we should rely on their translators to form our opinions.

So... TEPCO is inept and deceitful, but the translators they employ to appease the western media aren't?
Maybe you are that stupid.

Look, genius, I am dealing with a specific media handout - TEPCO's press release to the major world media, quoted here - as a media handout, to the audience receiving it. I'm not getting "information" out of it (it is the information) and I'm not talking about any other media handouts in any language. I don't care whether it's a translation or not, or what the "original" says if it is supposed to be a translation. That entire line of inquiry is completely irrelevant - beside the point - another topic - go away already. Got it?
 
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No, I didn't.
Yes, you did. Given you're inability to follow a conversation, and given that you can' retain context within a single post, I'm not surprised that you don't remember, however, you never the less did start the insults.

No, you haven't. You've been focusing on irrelevancies, misrepresentations, and insult, and derailed the thread accordingly. None of this crap you're yakking about is my argument, or my initiative.
No, that, again, would be you - you're the one that has to resort to cherry-picking and such to make a point. I have not focused on irrelvancies and misrepresentations, and I have not derailed this thread - save through responding to you.

No, that wasn't your point. That would have been a valid point, and possibly relevant to my argument. You missed a bet - but then, you had no interest in my actual argument, so it was easy to miss.

Your point was that it was false, not grandiose, and you appear to be wrong about that. It was correct, apparently - somewhat to my surprise, since it wasn't anything important to my argument or checked in detail by me. I'm kind of amused, actually.
Are you actually this stupid or putting on an act?
If someone claims that "All of this thing falls into that category under these circumstances" but in reality some of that thing falls into another category under those circumstances, then the statement is false because it is an overstatement. QED, my argument has precisely been that your argument is an overstatement.

Now, for a complete change of subject: about my actual argument - any thoughts? It's still waiting, pages back.
Let's assume you're right, for a moment, which you aren't. Quid pro quo.

It's funny, you keep saying that you can tell what 'they' are doing by looking at what 'they' accuse the other side of doing, should we apply your logic to you for a minute?

Hint: this is not my argument, and is total bullshit - more than that, it's dishonest. You aren't that stupid.
Yes, it is. You just can't see it because you can't follow the logic of your own statements through to it's own conclusion, because you haven't been following the argument - you've been too busy dismissing it as a trivial irrelevancy.

Worse: Maybe you are that stupid.

Look, genius, I am dealing with a specific media handout - TEPCO's press release to the major world media, quoted here - as a media handout, to the audience receiving it. I'm not getting "information" out of it (it is the information) and I'm not talking about any other media handouts in any language. I don't care whether it's a translation or not, or what the "original" says if it is supposed to be a translation. That entire line of inquiry is completely irrelevant - beside the point - another topic - go away already. Got it?
Maybe you are that stupid - you don't even seem to understand the basics of communication.
You seem to think that the world media is solely reliant on the English version of TEPCO press releases, it's almost as if you don't think that the BBC, CNN, or Faux News, to name a few examples, don't have Japanese correspondents, fluent in the Japanese language, with access to the Japanese press releases. It's almost as if you don't think that TEPCO has english speaking customers that it might be wishing to keep informed. It's almost as if you haven't been following the argument.
 
trippy said:
No, I didn't.

Yes, you did. Given you're inability to follow a conversation, and given that you can' retain context within a single post, I'm not surprised that you don't remember, however, you never the less did start the insults.
Here's your first response to my posting on this thread, an interjection into an exchange with soemone else, which began our little digressive and essentially worthless exchange, quoted in it's entirety:
post 98 said:
The misinformation and general misleading stuff around here is on the other side - false reassurances, irrelevancies about coal power, deflections into non-issues (at least we don't have to wade through a hundred detailed explanations about how it can't blow up like an atomic bomb - or is that still the case elsewhere?).

So when we see this: why can't we treat it with the same disdain now routine for "panic mongering"?

Pure nonsense.
Since you don't bother expalining your typically (in a non-technical matter) useless and irrelevant response, the particular misfire in your brain that generated the assessment (a first response which was nothing but insult) is not visible. The post where you started running everything I've posted through your private fantasy rhetoric muncher in public, where we could see it in action, was 106.

Your failure to deal with the question remains, of course: why can't we treat false reassurances with the same disdain we treat panic mongering - especially since they are very possible the primary source of panic, themselves?
trippy said:
It's funny, you keep saying that you can tell what 'they' are doing by looking at what 'they' accuse the other side of doing, should we apply your logic to you for a minute?
Sure. All you have to do is 1) assume I represent an organized political force with serious power and obscured agenda, as a large scale media operation with visible influence over the public rhetoric of thousands of publically quoted media figures.

Then 2) you have to figure out what I'm saying and why.

Step one should be easy. Step two will be quite a bit more difficult for you - for example, the paraphrase "you keep saying that you can tell what 'they' are doing by looking at what 'they' accuse the other side of doing" is wrongheaded, originating out of context and going south from there, and misleading to the point of dishonesty: and you are not capable of correcting it on your own. There's no way for you to figure out what I'm doing by analyzing your own private little world there - I'm not in it.
adoucette said:
Interesting summary by Ariva.
Short of detail (it appears to be a set of Powerpoint slides, without the accompanying lecture), but a couple of things are visible: as of 4/1, no one knew what the radiation release from the spent fuel pool #4 had been; no one was sure whether a couple of the containment vessels had been breached or not; the significant sources of released radiation were the noble gas releases, and their size as well as their fate had not been determined - the assumption seems to be that they were of moderate size and simply dispersed (not explicitly, just from the other stuff said), and the problems with the water leakage had not been spotted yet.

But assurances of safety were nevertheless given with apparent certainty: the evacuation was adequate, the neighborhood's return to habitability was anticipated fairly soon, etc. Of course that is in occasionally flawed English, an apparent quick translation from a German original, and so neither it nor the people who quote it are accountable for anything it says or implies.
 
Fukushima 1 nuclear plant emergency has placed the World in a dilemma..

When Pentagon had hundreds of nuke tests in 1950s, each test would have released much more radiation material into the air, why the media kept silence then? It seems they are creating a nuke panic now. Beware of a false flag nuke attack that used to justify Iran war.
 
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