Japanese N-Plant Explosion

My point was that they specifically and significantly failed to say that, in the quoted media handout from TEPCO that I was objecting to.

They instead used language implying that the levels were "normal environmental conditions" and they explicitly deduced safety from that.

Far from dancing around the fact that they knew better, I emphasized it. It's one of my major points. Yes, they know better than what they say - so do we - that's where the observation of deception and media manipulation of the framing here comes from. It's not like this is the first nuclear mess we've seen handled like that, in the media, eh?

Nope.

In TEPCO's actual handout (not the paraphrased one you used) they made the distinction clear.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11032812-e.html

TEPCO also included the EXACT readings of the isotopes found and specifically said that two of the samples had isotopes that were not in the proper ratios as one would expect remains of Nuclear testing and thus "are considered to come from the recent incident".

They didn't use the word SAFETY at all, what they said was the detected levels of radiation poses no major impact on human health

Now if you have evidence that the levels of radiation they found does pose the threat of a MAJOR IMPACT to human health, then let's see it.

Arthur
 
Nope.

In TEPCO's actual handout (not the paraphrased one you used) they made the distinction clear.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11032812-e.html

TEPCO also included the EXACT readings of the isotopes found and specifically said that two of the samples had isotopes that were not in the proper ratios as one would expect remains of Nuclear testing and thus "are considered to come from the recent incident".

They didn't use the word SAFETY at all, what they said was the detected levels of radiation poses no major impact on human health

Now if you have evidence that the levels of radiation they found does pose the threat of a MAJOR IMPACT to human health, then let's see it.

Arthur
And Arthur beat me to it. Oh well :3
 
TEPCO finally found the two employees who were missing since the Earthquake.
They were both found in the basement of the Number 4 reactor, how they died has not been released.

Arthur
 
Now don't come here into my thread and start posting your drivel here. Nobody is interested in your imbecelic idiocy. Piss off and post your guff somewhere else. We scientists are studying serious developments. You really should stop reading that bullshit before you start believing it. :mad:

Sorry, you don't represent everybody. You have a narrow mind to curse who have different opinions. You really should stop your bad manner.

-----------------

That's why European Parliament quickly issued warnings on HAARP 11 days after the Japan earthquake.

Quote, "
European Parliament issues warnings on HAARP

March 22, 2011

“HAARP is a project of which the public is almost completely unaware, and this needs to be remedied.”

Toronto, Canada –

Ask the people of northern Japan how they feel about the last three sentences and the answers they now seek in the aftermath of unimaginable loss and yet another future generation desecrated and ravaged by nuclear radiation.

A European Parliament document may provide a few answers for the inquiring mind. This parliamentary document is not some conspiratorial rant but an official governmental perspective describing authentic concern that a terribly grave technology, which the document calls a weapon, has been unleashed over many years without any public knowledge.

The technology is called HAARP and the European Parliament has put NATO, the US Air Force and Navy on notice, demanding an explanation about their involvement.

One of the most damning statements in the document reveals an American refusal to account for itself regarding HAARP research:

“[The European Parliament]… regrets the repeated refusal of the United States Administration to send anyone in person to give evidence to the public hearing or any subsequent meeting held by its competent committee into the environmental and public risks connected with the high Frequency Active Auroral Research Project (HAARP) programme currently being funded in Alaska.”
 
Sorry, you don't represent everybody. You have a narrow mind to curse who have different opinions. You really should stop your bad manner.

-----------------

That's why European Parliament quickly issued warnings on HAARP 11 days after the Japan earthquake.

Quote, "

LOL

Total BS

That dumb request was from 13 years ago.

HAARP - a weapons system which disrupts the climate

On 5 February 1998 Parliament's Subcommittee on Security and Disarmament held a hearing the subject of which included HAARP. NATO and the US had been invited to send representatives, but chose not to do so. The Committee regrets the failure of the USA to send a representative to answer questions, or to use the opportunity to comment on the material submitted.(21)

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides...EP//TEXT+REPORT+A4-1999-0005+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN

Arthur
 
TEPCO finally found the two employees who were missing since the Earthquake.
They were both found in the basement of the Number 4 reactor, how they died has not been released.

Arthur

They actually found them over a week ago, but didn't want to release the information at that time. My information is they think they drowned, which wouldn't surprise me considering the tsunami and all.

Edit* Though I was thinking, with all the machinery and water, electrocution might be indicated..don't know yet.
 
They actually found them over a week ago,

I should have said they announced finding them, but they found them on March 30th.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11040302-e.html

One other thing to put the issues at the reactor in perspective (3 dead from the Earthquake/Tsunami, none from radiation)

The Tsunami swept 5 km inland in Fukushima prefecture and there are 1,113 confirmed deaths with 4,626 more people still missing.

The totals for Japan are 12,087 dead and 15,552 still missing.

Arthur
 
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Yeah Arthur, pretty bad. It does put things in perspective somewhat. Looks like my original guess of about 10K was fairly low, even though some people railed even at that estimate. I just hope this accident can be put to bed soon so they can get some kind of closure on the whole sorry thing.
There still seems to be a lot of nuclear materiel getting into the sluice. I heard they were planning to pump a load of concrete in to stop it, but they surely need to plug the leak first or the basement would just fill up. Maybe they could keep it pumped out, but then there's storage to think about. I've not kept up with events very well lately, I've been in a hell of a lot of pain.
 
Sorry to hear about your pain.

They tried adding the concrete and it didn't stop the leak.
They are now going to add a polymer that expands in water and see if that will plug the leak.
They are still not sure where the water is coming from.

The new report says: the outflow from the crack with a length of around 20 cm in the concrete portion of the lateral surface of
the pit.

Arthur
 
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I see. I broke a rib some time ago (amongst other things) and it was healing, but it came adrift again last night. Damn thing!
I might just have a quick look at NHK. Jap tv is a little dry, though saying that, they've been a good source. Have you been watching them at all?
 
"Radiation levels on the ground have gradually decreased or have stabilized in many locations around the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant. Experts say these readings do not pose a threat to human health." ~ NHK http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/03_20.html

"On Sunday, TEPCO poured a polymer absorbent into a duct leading to the pit in the hope of blocking the leak. The polymer material expands when it absorbs water.
But TEPCO didn't see much change in the amount of water flowing into the sea." ~ NHK
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/04_06.html

Oh well, the basement leaking into the sluice must be fairly bad. The article doesn't say what will happen if the leak is plugged. It might just cause the basement to flood, though that could be pumped into tankers until the radioactive iodine which seems to be the worst contaminant degrades.
 
adoucette said:
In TEPCO's actual handout (not the paraphrased one you used) they made the distinction clear.
I used the quoted material on this forum. It was not presented as a paraphrase by the people quoting it here, and otherwise referencing it here. I did not paraphrase it, myself.

adoucette said:
They didn't use the word SAFETY at all, what they said was the detected levels of radiation poses no major impact on human health
OK. If that's your idea of defending them.

I claim that the word "therefore" is an explicit indicator of the undertaking of inference, and "no major impact on human health" is an explicit claim of safety.

I claim that language was intended to reassure, based on a false framing of the levels found as "normal environmental conditions". That phrase, "normal environmental conditions", had nothing to do with any "distinctions", and none of my argument depends on any "distinctions" as far as I can see. What are you talking about?
Now if you have evidence that the levels of radiation they found does pose the threat of a MAJOR IMPACT to human health, then let's see it.
- - -
And Arthur beat me to it. Oh well :3
This invalid inversion of the direction of logical implication is the central logical fallacy of the denialists and apologists here - in the nuclear issue, the earthquake matter, the entire collection of threads around Fukushima and most other forum issues intersecting political and scientific matters.

You people simply refuse to read and follow arguments. It's an odd, and central, problem - an inability? one would assume that as an essential skill of the expertise involved. It's almost as if we were dealing with a marketing or PR team, engaged in rhetorical spin.
 
I admit I am not an expert on thermodynamics, but what you are saying is very relevent


Ignorance is not of itself a bad thing. (for the others)
 
I claim that the word "therefore" is an explicit indicator of the undertaking of inference, and "no major impact on human health" is an explicit claim of safety.

NOPE, no one who understands English would conclude that NO MAJOR IMPACT is equal to a claim of Safety since the phrase clearly allows for there to be impacts to human health. And indeed, if you believe in the LNT of radiation, there ARE impacts, just not MAJOR ones.

Arthur
 
I used the quoted material on this forum. It was not presented as a paraphrase by the people quoting it here, and otherwise referencing it here. I did not paraphrase it, myself.
Actually, you cherry picked a portion of it, and presented it out of context.

I claim that the word "therefore" is an explicit indicator of the undertaking of inference, and "no major impact on human health" is an explicit claim of safety.
You're still trying to play that game?

Okay let's see what they said:
"...The density detected in the plutonium is equivalent to the density in the soil under normal environmental conditions and therefore poses no major impact on human health," TEPCO said..."
The key clause you're contesting is "therefore poses no major impact on human health", the word that defines the range of possible outcomes in that sentence is 'major'.
Here's why this is important.

Generally, there's several ways of dividing up toxicity - you're asserting that if it's not major then it must be none, which is blatantly wrong (another false dichotomy).
Chinese medicine recognises major toxicity, minor toxicity, an non toxicity, in fact most herbal medicine seems to. US federal regulations recognize 4 grades of toxicity (Highly, moderately, Slightly and Not), and the UNGHS recognizes 4 or 5 categories (I can't recall which, off the top of my head). Chinese herbalism grades the toxicity according to symptoms, the UNGHS, and US federal Regs grade the toxicity according to some measure of the dose required to produce an effect. These can be further be subdivided into 'acute toxicity' and 'chronic toxicity' where cirrohsis of the liver caused by alcoholism is an example of chronic toxicity, and death by cyanide poisoning is an example of acute toxicity,

What all of this means is that if they had wanted to imply that it was completely safe, as you're asserting then they would have said "therefore poses no impact on human health" or "therefore poses no major or minor impact on human health". However, they didn't. They only explicitly ruled out major health effects, not minor ones. For example - you're not going to get radiation poisoning from the soil by standing on it in bare feet, but you might eventually have a depressed white bloodcell count is you inhale enough of it for long enough.

They are neither implicitly, nor explicitly claiming there are no health effects from this soil.

I claim that language was intended to reassure, based on a false framing of the levels found as "normal environmental conditions". That phrase, "normal environmental conditions", had nothing to do with any "distinctions", and none of my argument depends on any "distinctions" as far as I can see. What are you talking about?
And yet, in the context of a post cold war, post atmospheric nuke testing world, the levels found on the site are within the range of normal levels observed around the world.

This invalid inversion of the direction of logical implication is the central logical fallacy of the denialists and apologists here - in the nuclear issue, the earthquake matter, the entire collection of threads around Fukushima and most other forum issues intersecting political and scientific matters.
Pure, unadulterated bullshit.

And there you go again, incorrectly categorizing statements made by people.

You people simply refuse to read and follow arguments. It's an odd, and central, problem - an inability? one would assume that as an essential skill of the expertise involved. It's almost as if we were dealing with a marketing or PR team, engaged in rhetorical spin.
Bullshit.
 
trippy said:
You people simply refuse to read and follow arguments. It's an odd, and central, problem - an inability? one would assume that as an essential skill of the expertise involved. It's almost as if we were dealing with a marketing or PR team, engaged in rhetorical spin.

Bullshit.
And yet we have, in the same post, this:
trippy said:
you're asserting that if it's not major then it must be none,
and this:
trippy said:
The key clause you're contesting is "therefore poses no major impact on human health", the word that defines the range of possible outcomes in that sentence is 'major'.
and this:
trippy said:
They only explicitly ruled out major health effects, not minor ones. For example - you're not going to get radiation poisoning from the soil by standing on it in bare feet, but you might eventually have a depressed white bloodcell count is you inhale enough of it for long enough
and this:
trippy said:
They are neither implicitly, nor explicitly claiming there are no health effects from this soil.
So apparently "bullshit" once again means "I'm not bothering to follow your argument or deal with your contentions, this time either".
 
trippy said:
And yet, in the context of a post cold war, post atmospheric nuke testing world, the levels found on the site are within the range of normal levels observed around the world.
A circumstance from which safety cannot be inferred, concealed by the phrase "normal environmental conditions".
 
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