It's real
- Thread starter Cyperium
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Are you talking about how the electrical impulses in your brain and body interact? how your brain accepts pain impulse and then you feel the sensation of pain for example? feeling.
Since this is the religous section, how about this question as well:
(If planets,moons,gasses, humans etc...all come from the sun),
Where did the blood and flesh come from?
As far as I know, electrical impulses and rocks,gasses etc do not produce
blood.
So, find out where flesh and blood came from and you will find out how you
can sense/feel.
(justa thought)
Since this is the religous section, how about this question as well:
(If planets,moons,gasses, humans etc...all come from the sun),
Where did the blood and flesh come from?
As far as I know, electrical impulses and rocks,gasses etc do not produce
blood.
So, find out where flesh and blood came from and you will find out how you
can sense/feel.
(justa thought)
C
charles cure
Guest
from: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/bhpavl.html
Ivan Pavlov 1849-1936
The work that made Pavlov a household name in psychology actually began as a study in digestion. He was looking at the digestive process in dogs, especially the interaction between salivation and the action of the stomach. He realized they were closely linked by reflexes in the autonomic nervous system. Without salivation, the stomach didn't get the message to start digesting. Pavlov wanted to see if external stimuli could affect this process, so he rang a metronome at the same time he gave the experimental dogs food. After a while, the dogs -- which before only salivated when they saw and ate their food -- would begin to salivate when the metronome sounded, even if no food were present. In 1903 Pavlov published his results calling this a "conditioned reflex," different from an innate reflex, such as yanking a hand back from a flame, in that it had to be learned. Pavlov called this learning process (in which the dog's nervous system comes to associate the sound of the metronome with the food, for example) "conditioning." He also found that the conditioned reflex will be repressed if the stimulus proves "wrong" too often. If the metronome sounds repeatedly and no food appears, eventually the dog stops salivating at the sound.
Pavlov was much more interested in physiology than psychology. He looked upon the young science of psychiatry a little dubiously. But he did think that conditioned reflexes could explain the behavior of psychotic people. For example, he suggested, those who withdrew from the world may associate all stimulus with possible injury or threat. His ideas played a large role in the behaviorist theory of psychology, introduced by John Watson around 1913.
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the whole point of me mentioning it is that pavlov's experiments with conditioning became the focal point for a whole range of studies in behavioral psychology about feelings and whether or not people can be conditioned to feel the opposite of what they normally would when reacting to a specific set of stimuli through positive or negative reinforcement.
and by the way feelings are reactions in the brain. they are certainly not in the heart. fellings are the reactions to stimuli placed in the context of your conscious thoughts. emotions are generated by the physical reactions you have to sensory information and the meaning they are given based on your personality and experiences.
Ivan Pavlov 1849-1936
The work that made Pavlov a household name in psychology actually began as a study in digestion. He was looking at the digestive process in dogs, especially the interaction between salivation and the action of the stomach. He realized they were closely linked by reflexes in the autonomic nervous system. Without salivation, the stomach didn't get the message to start digesting. Pavlov wanted to see if external stimuli could affect this process, so he rang a metronome at the same time he gave the experimental dogs food. After a while, the dogs -- which before only salivated when they saw and ate their food -- would begin to salivate when the metronome sounded, even if no food were present. In 1903 Pavlov published his results calling this a "conditioned reflex," different from an innate reflex, such as yanking a hand back from a flame, in that it had to be learned. Pavlov called this learning process (in which the dog's nervous system comes to associate the sound of the metronome with the food, for example) "conditioning." He also found that the conditioned reflex will be repressed if the stimulus proves "wrong" too often. If the metronome sounds repeatedly and no food appears, eventually the dog stops salivating at the sound.
Pavlov was much more interested in physiology than psychology. He looked upon the young science of psychiatry a little dubiously. But he did think that conditioned reflexes could explain the behavior of psychotic people. For example, he suggested, those who withdrew from the world may associate all stimulus with possible injury or threat. His ideas played a large role in the behaviorist theory of psychology, introduced by John Watson around 1913.
*********************************************************
the whole point of me mentioning it is that pavlov's experiments with conditioning became the focal point for a whole range of studies in behavioral psychology about feelings and whether or not people can be conditioned to feel the opposite of what they normally would when reacting to a specific set of stimuli through positive or negative reinforcement.
and by the way feelings are reactions in the brain. they are certainly not in the heart. fellings are the reactions to stimuli placed in the context of your conscious thoughts. emotions are generated by the physical reactions you have to sensory information and the meaning they are given based on your personality and experiences.
Cyperium said:
I see, in this generalization whatever is felt is really felt; however, it doesn't necessarily correlate to anything (as in the case of hallucination).
As I said before, I would rather talk about the feelings than the reactions! If I want to dwelve into the physics of the brain and the functions of the heart then I could.(Q) said:
So how do the brain give rise to feelings? Through association? Relativity (in some weird way)? Some hidden logic?
It doesn't matter if the brain make the feelings, what matters is the feelings!
The feelings as felt is non-physical in nature!
Do you say that I don't feel glad in my heart when I feel glad? The feelings doesn't substantiate into chemical reactions!
So if you kindly tried to understand what I say instead of falling into false assumptions then maybe we can get somewhere!
Ok, I happen to allready know where flesh and blood come from. But sure let's talk about that.protostar said:
If I remember correct then they come from so called stemcells (that can transform into any other cell (or almost any)), stemcells contains DNA that in itself contains codes that machines inside the cell use to know what to build (and DNA probably also contains codes to various other mechanisms that the cell must have to survive).
Now the tricky part...is there a map so that the cells know where to place what it produces? I've heard that there is like a hidden "border" and cells that are produced beyond this "border" dies. So we aren't just created by producing but also through the death of cells, much like you carve clay and get new clay in some places.
Is that map in the DNA? I ask anyone.
Or isn't there a map? Then how can such a complex being be created without a map of some kind so that the cells know where to place everything? Surely the cell must know where to put things?
If we look at the entire body as a map, shouldn't it require a map to create a map? In relation to this I mean.
Maybe a bit off topic but interesting anyway.
C
charles cure
Guest
Cyperium said:
so basically youre saying you dont care where feelings come from or what they are and that you just cant imagine having different feelings than you already have and so you'll never be able to feel differently. thats pretty amazing. youre trying to discuss feelings without actually saying anything about what they are or where they originate.
Oh, the basic function of the heart is to pump blood around the body. Who knows what the basic function of the brain is? To think, retrieve memories, intelligence. But of course the thought is in itself non-physical and so is dreams and memories since they aren't the same shape as the reactions even if reactions may represent them.KennyJC said:
I haven't said that they can't originate from the brain, the brain may very well give rise to feelings in various ways (probably through chemical reactions somehow), how that process works I don't know.charles cure said:
On to what they are...that's precisly what I'm talking about, the fact that feelings are *not* just reactions in the brain, but that their non-physical character must exist as well.
The whole point of this thread and all it's nicknacks and swirlarounds is that the non-physical you must exist aswell as your physical. Cause you are it.
You've never really experianced anything physical, not really, you've allways experianced the non-physical representation of what is physical.
Hope someone understands by now what I'm talking about.
The feelings as felt is non-physical in nature!
Horsepucky! So, you don't care to learn anything about the brain and would much rather follow whatever your imagination can conjure?
How come people need to differentiate between physical and non-physical?
Simple, the "non-physical" doesn't exist, so it is vitally important to distinguish between the two.
Who knows what the basic function of the brain is?
Again, YOU can find out if you want. The choice is up to YOU.
Horsepucky! So, you don't care to learn anything about the brain and would much rather follow whatever your imagination can conjure?
How come people need to differentiate between physical and non-physical?
Simple, the "non-physical" doesn't exist, so it is vitally important to distinguish between the two.
Who knows what the basic function of the brain is?
Again, YOU can find out if you want. The choice is up to YOU.
I've learned much about the brain, what I know is that certain areas "lights up" either by measuring the amount of oxygen in the aera (I think) when we do certain things and feels certain things, by this we have concluded that the seat of feelings, thoughts etc. are in certain areas of the brain (even if all areas of the brain can be used by (all?) functions - or so I heard...).(Q) said:
Still, since I do realise what you are talking about, CAN YOU PLEASE try to do the same yourself?
Can you start by realise this?
There is no exact physical (as we know it) representation of dreams, even (if/though)* all of it's building parts are from physical process.
* select the one you are more comfortable with.
With exact representation I mean the dream as experianced, if you dream about a green wall, then there is no dream wall physically appearing in the brain, allthough there might appear a "pattern/process" that represents a green wall.
'k?
C
charles cure
Guest
Cyperium said:
no one understands it because it doesnt make sense. i guess youre saying something like that you have a soul and thats where you feel things and your body is just a huge receptor of information that allows the soul to experience things. well even if you thought this way, you still cant have one without the other, if the sould resided in the body or was trapped in it, the fact that you cant interact with the spirit after its gone kind of points to its need for the body and its direct relation to it.
now if youre not in a fantasy world believeing in souls and crap, then you realize that your feelings are indeed brought on by a complex set of reactions that begin with physical sensation and are not independent of it. but hey keep going with whatever point you were trying to get across, it will reach a spot where it becomes impossible to justify your view with any type of evidence or logic at all if it hasnt already.
Cyperium,
Try this - you are your brain. The term "feeling" is just a label for a set of activities in your brain. You feel because that is what your brain is doing.
You are tying yourself in knots here because you are trying to think of yourself as something seperate - all clinical evidence especially from subjects with brain damage show a direct correlation between brain function and thoughts, feelings, memories, etc.
I.e. you and your brain are one and the same thing.
Try this - you are your brain. The term "feeling" is just a label for a set of activities in your brain. You feel because that is what your brain is doing.
You are tying yourself in knots here because you are trying to think of yourself as something seperate - all clinical evidence especially from subjects with brain damage show a direct correlation between brain function and thoughts, feelings, memories, etc.
I.e. you and your brain are one and the same thing.
Cyperium,
You are almost there I think. The image of the wall will be held as a neural network that your brain can access, but then there is little difference between that and actually seeing a wall. The light enters the eye and signals are transmitted to the brain where neural networks are formed that represent the image of the wall. The brain can then recall that image whenever it wishes, while awake or while dreaming.
Yeah, uh, Cyperium brilliant thread and you and Q rule.
That out of the way, since the both of you believe the real “you” is floating somewhere apart from your brain consider this:
Phineas Gage was a quiet, responsible, hard working man before an accident drove a pole right through his frontal lobes. Post surgery he became an irresponsible harridan with a violent streak.
Complete personality change, and do you know why?
Why would you become cold block of lead if I right now cut out the lower middle parts of your brain if I could?
Why would you become obsessed with abstracts and the religious, not to mention pedantic, egocentric and rude if I jolted the left side of your brain with a seizure?
Consider this also, the folds or squiggles you see on the brain- no matter the mammal- increase with development, and the brains of intellectually superior men (Cavendish, Einstein, Tesla) have been found to have more groves and squiqqle than average idiots such as myself.
" All human brains start out smooth and gradually wrinkle...like maturing mangos. An adult gorilla's lobes are slightly smoother than an adult human's, a rat’s still smoother, and a reptile’s still less convoluted"- Pickover's “Strange Brains and Genius.”
This means that as we age or go higher up in the animal kingdom, the brain gains more surface area by curling into itself almost and therefore more complicated in its functions- and guess what? Feelings of hate, love, fear, happiness, and sadness change right along with it, beoming as complex as the very brain responsible for their being.
Your reaction to pain is far more complicated than mole who's just got his leg caught in ....something that just caugght a mole's leg.
You experience not only the impulse of pain, like the mole does, but every past, present, and future fears and angers along with it. When you eat, you don't only experience the pleasures of eating but fears of getting too fat or offending the vegetarian right next to you as well, is another example.
This is why we can never say two people experience the same feelings the same way.
That out of the way, since the both of you believe the real “you” is floating somewhere apart from your brain consider this:
Phineas Gage was a quiet, responsible, hard working man before an accident drove a pole right through his frontal lobes. Post surgery he became an irresponsible harridan with a violent streak.
Complete personality change, and do you know why?
Why would you become cold block of lead if I right now cut out the lower middle parts of your brain if I could?
Why would you become obsessed with abstracts and the religious, not to mention pedantic, egocentric and rude if I jolted the left side of your brain with a seizure?
Consider this also, the folds or squiggles you see on the brain- no matter the mammal- increase with development, and the brains of intellectually superior men (Cavendish, Einstein, Tesla) have been found to have more groves and squiqqle than average idiots such as myself.
" All human brains start out smooth and gradually wrinkle...like maturing mangos. An adult gorilla's lobes are slightly smoother than an adult human's, a rat’s still smoother, and a reptile’s still less convoluted"- Pickover's “Strange Brains and Genius.”
This means that as we age or go higher up in the animal kingdom, the brain gains more surface area by curling into itself almost and therefore more complicated in its functions- and guess what? Feelings of hate, love, fear, happiness, and sadness change right along with it, beoming as complex as the very brain responsible for their being.
Your reaction to pain is far more complicated than mole who's just got his leg caught in ....something that just caugght a mole's leg.
You experience not only the impulse of pain, like the mole does, but every past, present, and future fears and angers along with it. When you eat, you don't only experience the pleasures of eating but fears of getting too fat or offending the vegetarian right next to you as well, is another example.
This is why we can never say two people experience the same feelings the same way.
