Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

[Buffalo Roam]

Hey, I'm not anti-semitic, but that meme is false, it's based on spurious scholorship and has been debunked by Norman Finkelstein among others.

Norman Finkelstein? :roflmao:

 

[spidergoat]

Ad hominem. He did cite the meticulous British records of the time.

 

[GeoffP]

Making them pay and take care of the refugees Israel created is the same thing morally as charging a rape victim for their own rape kit. The surrounding states shouldn't have to pay shit simply because Israel feels its above the law. one of these days you and yours are going to have to understand that. What you want is irrelevant. what Israel wants is irrelevant. a framework exists for this kind of thing and the only people's wants who matter under that framework is that of the refugees them selves.

Quid pro quo, Clarisse. Will the rest of the Middle East compensate Jewish refugees from their countries for their confiscated land and possessions?

Well, will they?

 

[pjdude1219]

Quid pro quo, Clarisse. Will the rest of the Middle East compensate Jewish refugees from their countries for their confiscated land and possessions?

Well, will they?

I believe they would be willing to discharge their responsibilities the moment Israel does.

 

[GeoffP]

Then the tally is already balanced.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Ad hominem. He did cite the meticulous British records of the time.

meticulous British records of the time​

Now you really have me :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Yes, the records for legal residents was meticolus, but the records for illegals was far from complete or accurate.

 

[S.A.M.]

Then stop complaining about it, if you advocate washing your hands of the issue.

Don't be silly, die gedanken sind frie. Complaining about the way others do things is natural and proper.

What do you think of Binyamin Netanyahu's most recent decision? I think from now on, since everyone knows where the lines are drawn, the Israel Palestine process will become a spectator sport with everyone discussing what the Israelis will do next. It really is all up to them now, isn't it? Even Abbas ha given up and KHamaaaas is no longer resisting recognition at '67 borders.

WWID?

Just for kicks, how internet killed the hasbara star or the hasbarapocalypse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME_NpnH7jDc&feature=player_embedded

 

[spidergoat]

meticulous British records of the time​

Now you really have me :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Yes, the records for legal residents was meticolus, but the records for illegals was far from complete or accurate.

Just read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Time_Immemorial

It's the most famous book which endorses your thesis. I'm reading it now, but it appears to be full of error.

 

[pjdude1219]

Just read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Time_Immemorial

It's the most famous book which endorses your thesis. I'm reading it now, but it appears to be full of error.

yeah when you have an Israeli history professor who has every incentive for the thesis of the book to be true call it and I quote "a shear forgery" perhaps someone might want to use a different thesis.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Just read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Time_Immemorial

It's the most famous book which endorses your thesis. I'm reading it now, but it appears to be full of error.

And the citation you forwarded has less errors?

Again for legal individuals, those who paid their taxes, on the lands that were Deeded and Titled to them the records are meticulous, and for the Jews that the British arrested for illegal immigration the records are meticulous, for the Arabs that the British arrested and deported the records are meticulous..3/1, but for illegal immigrants the Arabs from across the middle east, who the British didn't make the effort to find, round, up, and deport, the squatters who disappeared when the tax man showed up, the record are spotty to say the least.

http://www.meforum.org/522/the-smoking-gun-arab-immigration-into-palestine

The 1935 British report to the League of Nations noted that:

One thousand five hundred and fifty-seven persons (including 565 Jews) who, having made their way into the country surreptitiously, were later detected, were sentenced to imprisonment for their offence and recommended for deportation.[26]

(From the British own numbers, it could be deduced that there was a 3/1 Arab to Jew illegal immigration ratio, and that would be easily explained by the fact that the Arab illegal had less of a problem infiltrating into the Palestine.)

Each piece of the demographic puzzle by itself may reveal no identifiable picture. But given a multiplicity of such pieces, an image does begin to appear. The Royal Institute for International Affairs adds another piece. Commenting on the growth of the Palestinian population during the decades of the 1920s and 1930s it reports: "The number of Arabs who have entered Palestine illegally from Syria and Transjordan is unknown. But probably considerable."[28] And C.S. Jarvis, governor of the Sinai from 1923-36, adds yet another:

This illegal immigration was not only going on from the Sinai, but also from Trans-Jordan and Syria, and it is very difficult to make a case out for the misery of the Arabs if at the same time their compatriots from adjoining states could not be kept from going in to share that misery.[29]
[28] Great Britain and Palestine, 1915-1945, Information Paper no. 20, 3d ed. (London: Royal Institute for International Affairs, 1946), p. 64.
[29] C.S. Jarvis, "Palestine," United Empire (London), 28 (1937): 633.

That over 10 percent of the 1931 Arab Palestinian population in those sub-districts that eventually became Israel had immigrated to those sub-districts within the 1922-31 years is a datum of considerable significance. It is consistent with the fragmentary evidence of illegal migration to and within Palestine; it supports the idea of linkage between economic disparities and migratory impulses—a linkage universally accepted; it undercuts the thesis of "spatial stickiness" attributed by some scholars to the Arab Palestinian population of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries; and it provides strong circumstantial evidence that the illegal Arab immigration into Palestine, like that within Palestine, was of consequence as well.


Consider first McCarthy's analysis of Arab immigration during the Ottoman period. That he finds no illegal immigration of consequence is not surprising because McCarthy uses official Ottoman registration lists that, by the nature of its classifications, take no account of the unreported, illegal immigration. That is to say, if you look in a haystack for a needle that wasn't put there, the probability is high you won't find it. It is strange that that idea had not occurred to McCarthy

Every Reason to Believe
Therein lies the ideological warfare concerning claims to territorial inheritance and national sovereignty. Contrary to McCarthy's findings or wishes, there is every reason to believe that consequential immigration of Arabs into and within Palestine occurred during the Ottoman and British mandatory periods. Among the most compelling arguments in support of such immigration is the universally acknowledged and practiced linkage between regional economic disparities and migratory impulses.

The precise magnitude of Arab immigration into and within Palestine is, as Bachi noted, unknown. Lack of completeness in Ottoman registration lists and British Mandatory censuses, and the immeasurable illegal, unreported, and undetected immigration during both periods make any estimate a bold venture into creative analysis. In most cases, those venturing into the realm of Palestinian demography—or other demographic analyses based on very crude data—acknowledge its limitations and the tentativeness of the conclusions that may be drawn.

Fred M. Gottheil is a professor in the department of economics, University of Illinois.

 

[pjdude1219]

And the citation you forwarded has less errors?

Again for legal individuals, those who paid their taxes, on the lands that were Deeded and Titled to them the records are meticulous, and for the Jews that the British arrested for illegal immigration the records are meticulous, for the Arabs that the British arrested and deported the records are meticulous..3/1, but for illegal immigrants the Arabs from across the middle east, who the British didn't make the effort to find, round, up, and deport, the squatters who disappeared when the tax man showed up, the record are spotty to say the least.

http://www.meforum.org/522/the-smoking-gun-arab-immigration-into-palestine

The 1935 British report to the League of Nations noted that:

One thousand five hundred and fifty-seven persons (including 565 Jews) who, having made their way into the country surreptitiously, were later detected, were sentenced to imprisonment for their offence and recommended for deportation.[26]

(From the British own numbers, it could be deduced that there was a 3/1 Arab to Jew illegal immigration ratio, and that would be easily explained by the fact that the Arab illegal had less of a problem infiltrating into the Palestine.)

Each piece of the demographic puzzle by itself may reveal no identifiable picture. But given a multiplicity of such pieces, an image does begin to appear. The Royal Institute for International Affairs adds another piece. Commenting on the growth of the Palestinian population during the decades of the 1920s and 1930s it reports: "The number of Arabs who have entered Palestine illegally from Syria and Transjordan is unknown. But probably considerable."[28] And C.S. Jarvis, governor of the Sinai from 1923-36, adds yet another:

This illegal immigration was not only going on from the Sinai, but also from Trans-Jordan and Syria, and it is very difficult to make a case out for the misery of the Arabs if at the same time their compatriots from adjoining states could not be kept from going in to share that misery.[29]
[28] Great Britain and Palestine, 1915-1945, Information Paper no. 20, 3d ed. (London: Royal Institute for International Affairs, 1946), p. 64.
[29] C.S. Jarvis, "Palestine," United Empire (London), 28 (1937): 633.

That over 10 percent of the 1931 Arab Palestinian population in those sub-districts that eventually became Israel had immigrated to those sub-districts within the 1922-31 years is a datum of considerable significance. It is consistent with the fragmentary evidence of illegal migration to and within Palestine; it supports the idea of linkage between economic disparities and migratory impulses—a linkage universally accepted; it undercuts the thesis of "spatial stickiness" attributed by some scholars to the Arab Palestinian population of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries; and it provides strong circumstantial evidence that the illegal Arab immigration into Palestine, like that within Palestine, was of consequence as well.


Consider first McCarthy's analysis of Arab immigration during the Ottoman period. That he finds no illegal immigration of consequence is not surprising because McCarthy uses official Ottoman registration lists that, by the nature of its classifications, take no account of the unreported, illegal immigration. That is to say, if you look in a haystack for a needle that wasn't put there, the probability is high you won't find it. It is strange that that idea had not occurred to McCarthy

Every Reason to Believe
Therein lies the ideological warfare concerning claims to territorial inheritance and national sovereignty. Contrary to McCarthy's findings or wishes, there is every reason to believe that consequential immigration of Arabs into and within Palestine occurred during the Ottoman and British mandatory periods. Among the most compelling arguments in support of such immigration is the universally acknowledged and practiced linkage between regional economic disparities and migratory impulses.

The precise magnitude of Arab immigration into and within Palestine is, as Bachi noted, unknown. Lack of completeness in Ottoman registration lists and British Mandatory censuses, and the immeasurable illegal, unreported, and undetected immigration during both periods make any estimate a bold venture into creative analysis. In most cases, those venturing into the realm of Palestinian demography—or other demographic analyses based on very crude data—acknowledge its limitations and the tentativeness of the conclusions that may be drawn.

Fred M. Gottheil is a professor in the department of economics, University of Illinois.

Wow you got an econ professor how does that trump an Israel history professor(Yehoshua Porath) of middle eastern history who specialized in the history of palestinain nationalism? the thesis your promoting is rubbish and has been largely ignored since its refuting.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Wow you got an econ professor how does that trump an Israel history professor(Yehoshua Porath) of middle eastern history who specialized in the history of palestinain nationalism? the thesis your promoting is rubbish and has been largely ignored since its refuting.

Factual data.

 

[spidergoat]

By your own admission, there is no supporting evidence for massive illegal immigration to Palestine on the part of Arabs. Their demographic increase can be explained by administrative improvements in disease control, and the well known proclivity of peasant people to have large families. I also have every interest in proving this wrong, but at this point, it looks like the notion is the invention of one author based on questionable scholarship, who has been debunked repeatedly. But the talking point continues regardless of facts. I'm still reading "From Time Immemorial", as well as "Blaming the victims: spurious scholarship and the Palestinian question", which refutes it.

 

[pjdude1219]

Factual data.

so your essentially claiming one of the top experts of palestinian history in Israel is a fraud?

you don't have factual data. you have hacks you who misrepresented information and your own biases.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

so your essentially claiming one of the top experts of palestinian history in Israel is a fraud?

Yes, a politically correct fraud.

you don't have factual data. you have hacks you who misrepresented information and your own biases.

According to whom? You? :roflmao:

 

[Buffalo Roam]

By your own admission, there is no supporting evidence for massive illegal immigration to Palestine on the part of Arabs. Their demographic increase can be explained by administrative improvements in disease control, and the well known proclivity of peasant people to have large families. I also have every interest in proving this wrong, but at this point, it looks like the notion is the invention of one author based on questionable scholarship, who has been debunked repeatedly. But the talking point continues regardless of facts. I'm still reading "From Time Immemorial", as well as "Blaming the victims: spurious scholarship and the Palestinian question", which refutes it.

Really, so you didn't read the citation, as usual, and the citation is not from "From Time Immemorial",

Now for "Blaming the victims: spurious scholarship and the Palestinian question" yes, it would seem that the author would want to claim such as the Author;

Edward Wadie Saïd [wædiːʕ sæʕiːd] Arabic: إدوارد وديع سعيد‎, Idwārd Wadīʿ Saʿīd; is a Palestinian, born in Jerusalem, His father, a US citizen with Protestant Palestinian origins, His mother, born in Nazareth and was half-Lebanese, of Protestant background, they left for Egypt, when the Arabs lost the War of Extermination of the State of Israel.

His own description of Himself;

I was an uncomfortably anomalous student all through my early years: a Palestinian going to school in Egypt, with an English first name, an American passport and no certain identity at all. To make matters worse, Arabic, my native language, and English, my school language, were inextricably mixed: I have never known which was my first language, and have felt fully at home in neither, al-though I dream in both. Every time I speak an English sentence, I find myself echoing it in Arabic, and vice versa.

Yes, much politically correct, spurious scholarship, now refute the points of Fred M. Gottheil, also a Professor of the Center for Global Studies, University of Illinois, besides being a professor in the department of economics, seem He used both disciplines to research his finding, and has no ax to grind.

 

[IamJoseph]

Stop blaming israel.

The world needs a scaegoat. The other side of this coin is that each time this option is used, the user inherits a loss factor and diminishes itself - because when the scapegoat factor wears thin, they will have nothing to stand upon.

Tsunamies and AIDS were not caused by the Zionists - but cell phones and your PC's instant messaging was. Israel is grasping with the future the world still has to catch up with - in record time and while facing an existential threat every day - mostly because most of the world is too busy inventing fairy tales about Israel. This is a rare, bold opinion which will never make the main media news:

Don’t blame Israel for Arab failures


By SALIM MANSUR, QMI Agency
Last Updated: August 21, 2010 2:00am
http://www.ottawasun.com/comment/columnists/salim_mansur/2010/08/20/15091241.html


TEL AVIV — Size matters, and in geopolitics it can be critically important.

A grasp of this elementary fact could provide a better understanding for, and empathy with, a small country besieged by hostile powers on its borders.

Yet this fact often escapes people living in countries of continental dimensions with large spaces empty of inhabitants — as in Canada, the U.S., Russia, Australia and the E.U. — and they may, ironically at times, display a chauvinism reflecting the size of their country.

The fact of how small Israel is territorially, and how this fact deepens its sense of vulnerability, weighs down upon anyone who visits the country.

As I write sitting at a cafe on Tel Aviv’s waterfront, I remember how this city and Haifa to the north were targets of Saddam Hussein’s Iraqi Scud missiles during the 1991 Gulf War.

Israel is merely a dot relative to the Arab world, and yet made responsible, in the logic of the anti-Zionist bigots, for the problems of the Middle East and the inability of the Arab-Muslim culture to deal with the challenges of the modern world.

Consider the following: The Arab world, excluding Iran and Turkey, is comprised of 22 countries stretching from the Gulf to the Atlantic Ocean with a total area around 13 million sq. km and a population of nearly 350 million.

In terms of territorial size, only Russia is larger than the Arab world at 17 million sq. km.

Israel is barely 22,000 sq. km, or about three times the size of New York City, with a population of 7.5 million of which 20% are Israeli Arabs.

An objective consideration of the huge disparity in size and population between the Arab world and Israel should dispel the drivel the world has been fed that Arabs are the “underdog” in a colonial struggle against Jews as a colonizing people.

The reverse disparity between Israelis and Arabs is the tremendous human achievement of the former as free people, and the contrast when measured against the sullen reality of the Arab world just about at the bottom of the UN human development index despite the resources available.

But here, too, Arabs, Muslims and their apologists in the West will fault Israelis for the collective failure of the Arab world.

It is as if the plight of Palestinian “occupation” by Israelis explains the Sudanese civil wars and genocide in Darfur, or the savage killings inside Algeria, or the long list of atrocities, gender oppression, humiliation of religious minorities, wars, military dictatorships, and with no end in sight of violence and murder in the name of Islam across the Arab world.

It is sheer absurdity to hold Israelis responsible for the utterly dysfunctional nature of the Arab world.

Palestinians are an integral part of this dysfunctional world, and their politics reflect, in a heightened sense, the problems the rest of the world seeks to avoid discussing for fear of being denounced as politically incorrect.

Israel is a very small country packed with immensely talented people.

Their story is a gift to the Arab-Muslim world as it is to be found in the Qur’an if only Arabs and Muslims understood either.

 

[hypewaders]

Mod Note: Merging threads, I've combined some posts here so that the discussion remains in sequence.

A Jew Good Men - LIVE Face-Off on RT!

LIVE Face-Off on RT: Gaza raid report fires up both sides. There ARE some good guys in the Israeli camp who acknowledge the occupation of Palestinian land for the last 43 years! Amazing. Watch this battle to show the ugly face of master-race-mentality of the zionist dream in all it's glory. UNBELIEVABLE.

Surprise, politics in Israel is not monolithic!

No just the belief that taking land from palestinians because you want it is ok.

Not even. Plenty of Israelis disagree with the settlements.

But they do agree with the war of Jewish(Israeli/Zionist for the PC) conquest in 48 where they expelled most of the Palestinian than took there land. don't play stupid your to smart to pull it off. there was more land stolen than the settlement like all of Israel proper.


and the disagreement isn't on the morality of it just the cost and how it effects Israel.

It makes no difference if they agree with it or not, it's their nation now, one that saved many of them from hostility or indifference to their plight. I wouldn't expect non-Jews to understand that.

it cannot be their nation because its not one. a nation is a group of people so your saying the jews needs palestine to be a nation you just undercut one of the main arguments for it's abominable creation maybe its their state or country. and its not their state its the palestinians the jews just control it. by inflicting it on another.

Your right as a non jew I will never be able to understand why jews should get to break the law and get away with it and get other people's rights. but as human being I know it was wrong and should be brought to legality as soon as possible.

texas belongs to mexico..

well it did, hmmm wait a minute.

This shit has happened b4 and it will happen again..

Human nature..ring any bells..

Human nature?, I'd say its only part of human nature, in the area of pre-human animalistic nature passed down from the beasts we once where, before language and farming and all that jazz.

And almost none around who acknowledged the robbery and barring of return by Christianity and then Islam of Judea for 2000 years. They all had incurable dementia:

"WE WILL NEVER SUPPORT THE *RETURN* OF THE JEWS TO *THEIR HOMELAND* - BECAUSE THEY REJECTED JC" - Pope not so Pius on the eve of W.W.II.

And the re-dumping of the name Palestine, first applied to Judea - not any Islamic or Arab land - is also out of the radar. Only the ficticious new Islamic states are acknowledged. Also forgotten the Jews have never occupied another people' land in all their 4000 year history - exactly the reverse of her accusers. Would you really like to face a supreme judge with your perspective - I wouldn't?

Two king kongs banging their chests are not using gas chambers any more - they do it via PC at the UN Madarassa with serial 2-state demands in the same miniscule land - till there is none: fatastic arithmetics too. Shall I wait for Muslim Zionists being apartheided by those Jews?

AT LEAST THE NAZIS WERE HONEST ABOUT IT. :shrug:

Jordan is an illegal settlement - its creation, in secret, remains illegal and a corruption of the Balfour. I would say also the Sinai belongs to Israel: it never belonged to the Arabs, and the fact that they flaunted a UN established state of Israel and attacked with a declared goal of genocide - negates the land being given back. Go and ask your local sherrif some war rules.

 

[pjdude1219]

The world needs a scaegoat. The other side of this coin is that each time this option is used, the user inherits a loss factor and diminishes itself - because when the scapegoat factor wears thin, they will have nothing to stand upon.

Tsunamies and AIDS were not caused by the Zionists - but cell phones and your PC's instant messaging was. Israel is grasping with the future the world still has to catch up with - in record time and while facing an existential threat every day - mostly because most of the world is too busy inventing fairy tales about Israel. This is a rare, bold opinion which will never make the main media news:

cell phones were created by an american not an Israel and argublely instant messaging was created and existed in a form before what Israel claims created it. Israel is a lot better at stealing credit for things than they are at actually making things

 

[pjdude1219]

Yes, a politically correct fraud.

typical you and an expert disagree and naturally it must be the expert that wrong and a fraud. I mean its not like he has has accusatiion of academic wrongdoing and we all know you have a clean slate when it comes to academic honesty.

According to whom? You? :roflmao:

common sense. when you repeat things that have long since been debunked you don't have facts.