Isn't time that Humanity was more important than any religion

[river]

Originally Posted by river
I see

What experience have they gathered , through life time

Your reasoning is stupid really

It's your reasoning that is stupid.

You are simply coming from the romantic perspective of the ideal individual, who presumes themselves to be above and beyond culture and society.

Romantic , I see

See the thing is , is that , if all you can do is attack me , rather than the philosophy I put forth , then there is nothing to discuss

Originally Posted by river
just use reasoning , based on what I know and experience

Reasoning, a lot of which you have picked up in the process of socialization/acculturation.

While you may not have any formal ties to any specific ideology/philosophy etc. (such as by having a PhD in existentialist philosophy or whichever), simply having been born and raised among people makes it inevitable to pick up their ideas

.

And by observation

And so what really

Like I said before , every religion , is about another outside entity and therefore not about us , Humanity

I hope to change that mindset

A slave owner would not exist in my world , since the owner does not have the slaves well being in mind , at all

My example with slavery is just one example that I gave to illustrate my point. Which still stands: people tend to have vastly different ideas about what prosperity, justice etc. mean.

Sure they do , I'm well aware of this

Some people are consumed with power , revenge , domination , control , manipulation , ego , fear , religion and politics etc.

And that is the cancer which grips us now

It will take time to change this mindset , no doubt

And given that they do have such different ideas on these matters, how do you propose that they all consolidate into one worldview, one philosophy, one system of values?

By the realization that we are All part of Humanity , hence then our survival depends on us seeing the big picture , as in the Universe in which we must learn to survive

And we can only achieve if we see the value in our existence as a whole

How does "your world" come into existence?

By the understanding , by all of Humanity , that we need to believe in ourselves first and foremost

What is your idea for how this world, with all its differences, is to become your world, with no differences?
What are you going to do with all those who oppose you or your views? Imprison them? Kill them?

I embrace the differences , all I'm trying to get across is make Humanity first

I will neither imprison or kill anybody

They will either understand the reasoning or they won't

Up to them

I still don't understand your connection between religion and survival ?

You said:

Hence we have lost our humanity towards each other and religion hasn't quelled this attitude

and I asked:

Can you point out a time when life wasn't a struggle for survival?

You suggest that at some point, we had our humanity, but then lost it.
How can that be? Was there a time when life was not a struggle for survival and people could "fully express their humanity"?

We lost our Humanity when religion came into our thoughts ,behavior and attitudes towards other Humans

 

[Balerion]

Denying that one is appealing to authority doesn't make one appeal any less to authority.

Everyone appeals to some kind of authority or other.

Not if you make value judgments on your own. You can even take your cues from other sources, so long as you agree with the reasoning behind those valuations, without making any appeal to authority. For example, I happen to agree with Christopher Hitchens on many aspects of morality and reason, but I don't agree with him because he's Christopher Hitchens, I agree because I agree with his logic.

To quote you:



If "good and evil [and some other evaluations] are just subjective values placed on things by humans" then it is not possible to "judge something on its own merits," because, per your reasoning, there is no such thing, no actual objective qualities.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Saying that there is no objective quality such as good or evil is not to say that thing doesn't exist as a subjective quality. If I drew a bath, I might say it is just right, but you might say it is too hot. Even though there is no objective "too hot" or "just right" in this situation, both qualities exist subjectively. It is true for you that the bath is too hot, even though it is not true for me. Hence, subjective values.

Resorting to the idea of "judging something on its own merits" is an example of denying this subjective nature of judgment, as well as denying that a person's subjective judgment is also in part a product of socialization/acculturation.

It does neither of those things. You and I can judge something on its merits and come to two totally different conclusions--see the bathwater example above--and both be correct, because valuation is a subjective process. Judging something for oneself doesn't mean that judgment is therefore objective; it means the opposite of that. Appealing to some authority would be the surrender to a perceived objectivity, because it would suggest that one doesn't believe themselves capable of making judgments, or perhaps they believe that the authority has some insight that they do not.

I want to know how he imagines to settle the current differences between people, so that he can bring about the world in which everyone is humane.

I think he's saying that he's presenting God as an alternative to those values, but I could be wrong.

 

[river]

Balerion

Look at my last post statement ( #521 ) compared to your last statement

Find the error ?

 

[wynn]

Romantic , I see

See the thing is , is that , if all you can do is attack me , rather than the philosophy I put forth , then there is nothing to discuss

There are times when having some formal education makes the difference in understanding things.

Some of your views are not unlike those of the romantics, and this is what I was referring to.

And by observation

And so what really

Like I said before , every religion , is about another outside entity and therefore not about us , Humanity

I hope to change that mindset

It seems though that you are the one who sees God as something outside of humanity.

By the understanding , by all of Humanity , that we need to believe in ourselves first and foremost

What does that mean, "to believe in ourselves"?

I will neither imprison or kill anybody

They will either understand the reasoning or they won't

Up to them

In that case, you are not actually advocating change. Even though you keep saying that people need to change and how you hope to change them.

We lost our Humanity when religion came into our thoughts ,behavior and attitudes towards other Humans

Where do you believe religion came from?

 

[river]

And by observation

And so what really

Like I said before , every religion , is about another outside entity and therefore not about us , Humanity

I hope to change that mindset

It seems though that you are the one who sees God as something outside of humanity.

Yes

In the sense that god is not from Humanity or not Human in origin

 

[river]

By the understanding , by all of Humanity , that we need to believe in ourselves first and foremost

What does that mean, "to believe in ourselves"?

It means that we can govern ourselves , in all aspects of Humanity by developing our own philosophy attitude towards ourselves

Inotherwords become independent of any god philosophy

 

[river]

I will neither imprison or kill anybody

They will either understand the reasoning or they won't

Up to them

In that case, you are not actually advocating change. Even though you keep saying that people need to change and how you hope to change them.

So are you saying that to invoke my kind of change that I would have to kill and / or jail them to do so ? Won't happen

Look there will always be opponents to my philosophy , I have no problem with this

What I'm hopping is that most people will see the benefits of what I'm trying to get across

 

[river]

We lost our Humanity when religion came into our thoughts ,behavior and attitudes towards other Humans

Where do you believe religion came from?

Like I said from out there , beyond Earth

 

[river]

Originally Posted by river
Romantic , I see

See the thing is , is that , if all you can do is attack me , rather than the philosophy I put forth , then there is nothing to discuss

There are times when having some formal education makes the difference in understanding things.

Some of your views are not unlike those of the romantics, and this is what I was referring to.

I see your point

But I see that because I'm NOT informed of these philosophical teachings , I'm also not conditioned to think like them

So that what I'm trying to get across is based on more free thinking upon the situation.

 

[wynn]

Look there will always be opponents to my philosophy , I have no problem with this

Of course you have a problem with this; otherwise, you wouldn't be posting this thread.

So are you saying that to invoke my kind of change that I would have to kill and / or jail them to do so ?

How else?

If your stance would be the true one, the one that adequately represents how things really are, then people wouldn't have much difficulty to align themselves with it; it would come naturally to them.

If humans really would be humane by nature (as you understand the term "humane"), then how can it be that a philosophy from beyond planet Earth could affect them so as to deteriorate them?

It means that we can govern ourselves , in all aspects of Humanity by developing our own philosophy attitude towards ourselves

Inotherwords become independent of any god philosophy

I think you are simply operating out of an inferior hypothesis about God, hence your problems with religion.

 

[river]

Originally Posted by river
Look there will always be opponents to my philosophy , I have no problem with this

Of course you have a problem with this; otherwise, you wouldn't be posting this thread.

Non-sequitur

So are you saying that to invoke my kind of change that I would have to kill and / or jail them to do so ?

How else?

You have a warped sense of freedom of thought

If your stance would be the true one, the one that adequately represents how things really are, then people wouldn't have much difficulty to align themselves with it; it would come naturally to them.

Time will tell , my philosophy is very , very young

If humans really would be humane by nature (as you understand the term "humane"), then how can it be that a philosophy from beyond planet Earth could affect them so as to deteriorate them?

Because this without philosophy has divided Humanity into this cult or that cult

Which is because some cults think that they are closer to this or that god than any other

Hence our situation presently in the world

Originally Posted by river
It means that we can govern ourselves , in all aspects of Humanity by developing our own philosophy attitude towards ourselves

Inotherwords become independent of any god philosophy

I think you are simply operating out of an inferior hypothesis about God, hence your problems with religion

Explain this " inferior hypothesis " that you think I have

Because basically you seem to have missed my point

But explain this " inferior hypothesis " first

 

[Balerion]

Wynn flees from another discussion, I see.

 

[rodereve]

I don't really see a conflict of interest, believing in Humanity and believing in religion aren't mutually exclusive.

I might argue that some religions can be an expression of glorifying or celebrating humanity. They picture their Gods as human-like, that they can talk and hear, that they have arms or multiple arms and there's personifications of traits of God in many religious scriptures. The famous quote that "God created man in his own image" can be seen as "Man created God in his own image". The idea that millions of people can unite in a single belief and purpose, can share thoughts and bond by understanding what each other are going through. If religion is a way for humans to explain the world around them, its almost like a holy ritual observed by over 2000 years of humanity to pass on this concept from generation to generation and something millions and millions of people past have believed in and would die for.

Well, that's one way to look at it

 

[Jan Ardena]

I don't really see a conflict of interest, believing in Humanity and believing in religion aren't mutually exclusive.

I might argue that some religions can be an expression of glorifying or celebrating humanity. They picture their Gods as human-like, that they can talk and hear, that they have arms or multiple arms and there's personifications of traits of God in many religious scriptures. The famous quote that "God created man in his own image" can be seen as "Man created God in his own image". The idea that millions of people can unite in a single belief and purpose, can share thoughts and bond by understanding what each other are going through. If religion is a way for humans to explain the world around them, its almost like a holy ritual observed by over 2000 years of humanity to pass on this concept from generation to generation and something millions and millions of people past have believed in and would die for.

Well, that's one way to look at it

The prime definition of ''create'' is ''to cause to come into being, as something unique that would not naturally evolve or that is not made by ordinary processes.''

Before any lesser creation, that creation has to be first. It is therefore impossible for man to create God in their image unless you are are stating that God does not exist, period.

jan.

 

[rodereve]

The prime definition of ''create'' is ''to cause to come into being, as something unique that would not naturally evolve or that is not made by ordinary processes.''

Before any lesser creation, that creation has to be first. It is therefore impossible for man to create God in their image unless you are are stating that God does not exist, period.

jan.

Well that's obvious, yes I'm stating that man imagined God, not the other way around. I'm trying to argue that Man projects his own qualities onto God and religion. It's like when you see aliens in sci-fi movies, they all look human-oid, because its our own conception of aliens, when in fact I'm sure if aliens existed they would look much different than us.

For example, in the bible the Old Testament God gets jealous, and angry, and possessive of the israel tribe. That seems more like human qualities, than of an omnipotent being. God is very much personified in the bible, rather than some higher being in the universe.

 

[Jan Ardena]

1.Well that's obvious, yes I'm stating that man imagined God, not the other way around.

2. I'm trying to argue that Man projects his own qualities onto God and religion.

3. It's like when you see aliens in sci-fi movies, they all look human-oid, because its our own conception of aliens, when in fact I'm sure if aliens existed they would look much different than us.

4. For example, in the bible the Old Testament God gets jealous, and angry, and possessive of the israel tribe.

That seems more like human qualities, than of an omnipotent being. God is very much personified in the bible, rather than some higher being in the universe.

1. God imagines, which is why man imagines.

2. Man projects his qualities onto everything, why single out God and religion?

3. Because from our own experience humanoid creatures (humans in particular) rule (on any level), so if we are thinking of advance species it is little wonder we
depict them as humanoids.

4. Things aren't always how they seem.
What do you think ''a higher being in the universe'' is or should be?

jan.

 

[wynn]

Wynn flees from another discussion, I see.

You have the patience of a teenager.

 

[wynn]

Non-sequitur
You have a warped sense of freedom of thought

I think you have a warped sense of how social change can be brought about.

Explain this " inferior hypothesis " that you think I have

Because basically you seem to have missed my point

But explain this " inferior hypothesis " first

In short, you do not maintain that God is the First Cause.

Because this without philosophy has divided Humanity into this cult or that cult

Which is because some cults think that they are closer to this or that god than any other

Hence our situation presently in the world

So because there is competition between religious traditions, we should do away with religion altogether?

 

[arauca]

Religion is supposed to be humanity

What does humanity offers that is not inscribed in religion ?

If religion failed to produce humanity , Will humanity produce godliness ?

 

[river]

I don't really see a conflict of interest, believing in Humanity and believing in religion aren't mutually exclusive.

I might argue that some religions can be an expression of glorifying or celebrating humanity. They picture their Gods as human-like, that they can talk and hear, that they have arms or multiple arms and there's personifications of traits of God in many religious scriptures. The famous quote that "God created man in his own image" can be seen as "Man created God in his own image". The idea that millions of people can unite in a single belief and purpose, can share thoughts and bond by understanding what each other are going through. If religion is a way for humans to explain the world around them, its almost like a holy ritual observed by over 2000 years of humanity to pass on this concept from generation to generation and something millions and millions of people past have believed in and would die for.

Well, that's one way to look at it

The problem though is that god governs our behavior because we have been conditioned for thousands of years that god is superior and that humanity is a lesser form of being

We as Humanity have to break this psychology towards ourselves