Isn't being an Atheist a religion?

Although I ahve serious quarrels with Dawkins's positions re theism, this is not reasonable:
fraggle said:
{1} Misrepresents the average theist,
{2} Makes a number of errors in his historical analysis that help lead him to that misrepresentation,
{3} Assumes that the assholes among them speak for all of them, just as they now assume that he, the asshole among us, speaks for all of us,
{4} Has never read Jung and has no understanding of archetypes and the collective unconscious, which is fundamental to any scholarly discussion of theism and religion in the 21st century,
{5} Has not seen Jung's model through the new microscope of genetics,
{6} Therefore doesn't have a clue as to why theists are theists and more generally why supernaturalists are supernaturalists,
{7} Is also--if for the sake of the discourse theism is defined as a problem--clueless about how to attempt to solve it,
{8} And finally, is equally clueless about how successful any proposed solution is likely to be in the short and long run
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1-6: Jung's theorizing is not some kind of established, scientifically rigorous approach that we must all recognize. Dawkins does not assume that the assholes among them speak for the rest - he quotes the standard, recognized, upper-echelon, theist-chosen representatives and writings, the major and commonly seen behaviors large numbers of ordinary theists, for his discussions of significant proportions of theists and significant schools of theist thought. That seems reasonable to me.

7&8: So?

btw: Fraggle's religion seems to be differetn from Dawkins's, and both of them different from mine.
 
iceaura said:
Fraggle's religion seems to be different from Dawkins's, and both of them different from mine.
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* * * * NOTE FROM THE LINGUISTICS MODERATOR * * * *

Defining atheism as a "religion" begs the question in the O.P. and does not contribute to the clarity or progress of the discourse.
 
fraggle said:
"Fraggle's religion seems to be different from Dawkins's, and both of them different from mine. "

* * * * NOTE FROM THE LINGUISTICS MODERATOR * * * *

Defining atheism as a "religion" begs the question in the O.P.
Click to expand...
Note from the poster: you're sleeping.
 
lixluke: "3. They use terms such as "strong atheism", "weak atheism", "agnostic atheism" etc. None of which any sane person takes seriously."

Given that you have here, and multiple times throughout this thread, used your own personal authority to determine the validity of terms used by others to describe themselves, I would posit that you either need to define why no sane person would take these terms seriously (using detailed and fully rigorous logic), provide your credentials as the owner of the English language, or admit you have fallen into a hybrid Real Scotsman & Appeal to Authority fallacy.



As for your determination of the definition of a word, you do realize that language evolves, and while the history of a word is critical to understanding the modern definition, dictionaries are maps of the current lexicon, rather than its master?

If tomorrow every single English speaker decided that the word "apple" meant "To butter bread", then we would have a few years of linguists complaining about how people aren't applying the word "apple" correctly, followed by the updating of the word "apple" in every one of the English dictionaries world wide. If people also stopped using the current definition, then after a few more years, all new dictionaries would include "archaic, approx. 2010" to the traditional definition.

The term atheist certainly did originate with the meaning of a positive belief in the non-existence of god, in that you are correct. However, you are a century out of date with your word usage: it quickly became apparent that the term was too limited to accurately reflect the range of philosophical stances that are outside of theism, and therefor the definition of atheism has changed since its creation. Most notably in the last 30 years, where terms like strong and weak atheism have come about.

Most importantly to the definition of the terms in question is the difference between knowledge and belief.

Theism refers to faith. Gnosticism refers to knowledge. You can therefor have, without any conflict:
1) Theistic Gnostics (with faith in god and with knowledge of god)
2) Theistic Agnostics (with faith in god but without knowledge of god)
3) Atheistic Agnostics (without faith in god and without knowledge of god)

And within each of those clarifiers, at least two levels, one which professes a positive claim "I believe in/know X", and one which does not profess a positive claim, but a lack of claim: "I don't have a believe in/know X". This applies to both Theism and gnosticism, resulting in strong and weak of each: "I believe in god", "I believe there is no god", "I know there is a god", "I cannot know there is a god" vs "I don't have belief in a god", "I don't know if it is possible to know god"




I would ask all participants if they think the following final combination of faith and knowledge is possible:
4) Atheistic Gnostics (without faith in god and with knowledge of god)


As for the original question: my understanding is that religion requires a formal set of dogmas, which atheism doesn't have. While one might argue (unsuccessfully) that lack of belief is in and of itself *belief*, I don't think one could effectively argue that atheism is *religion*.

The closest thing to dogmas atheism could profess is adherence to rationality and logic. However these are not requirements of being an atheist, they are just the best tools for understanding the world we currently have available, therefor most atheists (and theists) utilize them heavily.
 
Hi, all. I'm new to this topic, but I wanted to share one of my own experiences. This happened a few decades ago.

I was an agnostic, someone who doubted the very existence of any god. I had many reasons for it, despite the fact that my own father was a Protestant minister. He's now retired.

I often wanted the kind of help that friends and relatives just couldn't provide, including help getting dates, help avoiding schoolyard bullies, help with schoolwork, and help in figuring out the best direction for my life.

One day, more open-minded about God's existence than I usually was, I spoke to the empty space around me and asked God for some proof of his own existence. I know, I know, that's like asking a sleeping person whether he's awake.

I rarely carry much money in my wallet, and earlier that day, I was certain that it was empty, but shortly after I asked for some proof of God's existence, I opened my wallet (God only knows why) and found a $5 bill.

I stared at it for a moment, quite sure that it shouldn't be there. Then I said, again to the empty space around me, "thank you".

I can't say that my life was magically transformed into the mythical "bed of roses", and I haven't become a born-again Christian (another story for another day), but I sometimes say "thank you" to the empty air around me, just because I'm certain that God, who I'm convinced DOES EXIST, was helping me at that very moment.

Benny, an admirer of Mr. Franklin
 
I'd say being thankful is an admirable trait, and be it to a conscious deity or simply to the fact of existence of life, family, friends, and joy, it should be actively practiced by everyone.

Thank you sciforums, for being a place for me to dump my ranting. :)
 
BennyF said:
Hi, all. I'm new to this topic, but I wanted to share one of my own experiences. This happened a few decades ago.

I was an agnostic, someone who doubted the very existence of any god. I had many reasons for it, despite the fact that my own father was a Protestant minister. He's now retired.

I often wanted the kind of help that friends and relatives just couldn't provide, including help getting dates, help avoiding schoolyard bullies, help with schoolwork, and help in figuring out the best direction for my life.

One day, more open-minded about God's existence than I usually was, I spoke to the empty space around me and asked God for some proof of his own existence. I know, I know, that's like asking a sleeping person whether he's awake.

I rarely carry much money in my wallet, and earlier that day, I was certain that it was empty, but shortly after I asked for some proof of God's existence, I opened my wallet (God only knows why) and found a $5 bill.

I stared at it for a moment, quite sure that it shouldn't be there. Then I said, again to the empty space around me, "thank you".

I can't say that my life was magically transformed into the mythical "bed of roses", and I haven't become a born-again Christian (another story for another day), but I sometimes say "thank you" to the empty air around me, just because I'm certain that God, who I'm convinced DOES EXIST, was helping me at that very moment.

Benny, an admirer of Mr. Franklin
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Tell me, Benny.

Do they pay you to write for "Readers Digest" at all?
You could make a fairly good living at it, you know.

I swear, I waded all the way through that, and I couldn't tell the difference.
 
Crap. 18 pages of discussion. I came to this topic late...so here's me answering the title of the thread.

Atheism isn't a religion. Why? For the same reason "not collecting stamps" is not a hobby. Would you say "Why yes, I do have a hobby - I don't collect stamps"? No. Well, you might, but if you did you'd just be whimsical and/or insane.
 
That's not actually the reason atheism isn't a religion. Because theism isn't a religion either.
A religion requires more than just a theological position. It requires an entire system of philosophical opinions and standpoints. Since atheism is merely the theological position that deity does not exist, whether through passive disbelief or active nonbelief, atheism is not a religion.
 
BennyF said:
I often wanted the kind of help that friends and relatives just couldn't provide, including help getting dates, help avoiding schoolyard bullies, help with schoolwork, and help in figuring out the best direction for my life. One day, more open-minded about God's existence than I usually was, I spoke to the empty space around me and asked God for some proof of his own existence. . . .
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Reminds me of the fellow who said that he was raised as a Christian and was always taught to pray when he needed something. As he became old enough to have friends who lived outside of his own neighborhood, and whom he liked to socialize with outside of school, he came to realize that he needed a bicycle.

When he asked his parents for a bicycle they said they simply didn't have the money to buy one. He began to notice that the house was a little run down, their clothes were old, their car would have qualified for "historical vehicle" license plates, and in fact his family was one of the poorest in town.

So he prayed for a bicycle. Every night he got down on his knees and explained to God that he didn't just want a bicycle, he really needed one so he could participate in sports, go to the library, and help other people.

After a month of this, there was still no bicycle.

Suddenly it dawned on him that he was going about this all wrong, and he realized what it truly meant to be a Christian.

So he went out and stole a bicycle from a wealthier family, and then came home and prayed for forgiveness.
 
Or the right-wingers on the forum could argue that the latter was a demonstration of socialism in action. ;)
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
Reminds me of the fellow who said that he was raised as a Christian and was always taught to pray when he needed something. As he became old enough to have friends who lived outside of his own neighborhood, and whom he liked to socialize with outside of school, he came to realize that he needed a bicycle.

When he asked his parents for a bicycle they said they simply didn't have the money to buy one. He began to notice that the house was a little run down, their clothes were old, their car would have qualified for "historical vehicle" license plates, and in fact his family was one of the poorest in town.

So he prayed for a bicycle. Every night he got down on his knees and explained to God that he didn't just want a bicycle, he really needed one so he could participate in sports, go to the library, and help other people.

After a month of this, there was still no bicycle.

Suddenly it dawned on him that he was going about this all wrong, and he realized what it truly meant to be a Christian.

So he went out and stole a bicycle from a wealthier family, and then came home and prayed for forgiveness.
Click to expand...

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.

Emo Philips​
 
BennyF said:
Hi, all. I'm new to this topic, but I wanted to share one of my own experiences. This happened a few decades ago.

I was an agnostic, someone who doubted the very existence of any god. I had many reasons for it, despite the fact that my own father was a Protestant minister. He's now retired.

I often wanted the kind of help that friends and relatives just couldn't provide, including help getting dates, help avoiding schoolyard bullies, help with schoolwork, and help in figuring out the best direction for my life.

One day, more open-minded about God's existence than I usually was, I spoke to the empty space around me and asked God for some proof of his own existence. I know, I know, that's like asking a sleeping person whether he's awake.

I rarely carry much money in my wallet, and earlier that day, I was certain that it was empty, but shortly after I asked for some proof of God's existence, I opened my wallet (God only knows why) and found a $5 bill.

I stared at it for a moment, quite sure that it shouldn't be there. Then I said, again to the empty space around me, "thank you".

I can't say that my life was magically transformed into the mythical "bed of roses", and I haven't become a born-again Christian (another story for another day), but I sometimes say "thank you" to the empty air around me, just because I'm certain that God, who I'm convinced DOES EXIST, was helping me at that very moment.

Benny, an admirer of Mr. Franklin
Click to expand...

A perfect example of selective attention.

Here's another. I'm an atheist, and one day after defending my position on sciforums, I wondered if there was a God, would he punish me for talking badly about Him? Just then I sneezed, covering my mouth with my hand. But, I had formed my hand into a tube, and sneezed a big pile of weed I had just shredded all over my desk. Thanks a lot God. If I was a gullible person like the poster above, I would interpret it as a sign of God's displeasure, but I don't. The rain falls on the good as well as the wicked, the bible says that.
 
I thought Atheists were defined by their lack of religion. :shrug:

Hence why we can call them godless heathens. ;)
 
ja'far said:
I thought Atheists were defined by their lack of religion.
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No.

It's a catchall category for anyone who has no belief in a deity.

I once ran into a study that seemed to indicate - and it was carefully done - that something like 4% (IIRC) of Catholic priests were atheist. Some Buddhists are atheist. Some Navajo shamans think their religion is atheist. It's probable that a large majority of the world's atheistic people have a religion.
 
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