Islam

[surenderer]

Well Bruce doesn't making the hijab mandatory take away that choice you mention? I have a hard time beleiving any god purposefully made his creations sinful or that he is embarrased by what he created if we are the ultimate living creation of god then shouldn't he be proud.

A Muslim man should similarily not wear tight, sheer, revealing, or eye-catching clothing. The prohibitions against wearing clothing of the opposite sex or distinctive clothing of other faiths is also the same. In addition, a Muslim man is prohibited from wearing silk clothing (except for medical reasons) or gold jewelry. A Muslim woman may wear silk or gold. The Koran tells women tio be modest in their dress so as to not be treated as sex objects which lower their demeanor and shows them lack of respect....peace unto you

 

[Bells]

As far as the headcover being mandatory is concerned, I am a Sunni Muslim, I do believe that it is mandatory. As for your question my answer is as follows. We have not been created to live a sequence of events without having to choose our path in them. We have got the potential to do good and bad. We have the choice to be modest or not to be modest. He clearly did not want to create us modest but wanted us to make the choice to be modest.

Peace be upon you.

There is a contradiction in your statement Bruce. While you may believe that that the headcovering is mandatory, it is still up to the individual woman to decide to wear the hijab. You yourself have stated that the choice of modesty rests on the individual person, so therefore, it should not be mandatory. Instead it should be a choice for the individual as to how modest they decide to be. It should not be for you to tell any individual and certainly not any woman as to what she should wear or not wear. If a woman does not wish to wear the hijab, then no one should force her to do so or make it mandatory that she does so. The same applies to any person or Government who states that a woman should not be allowed to wear it (for example France's laws banning the hijab). The wearing of the hijab is based on the individual woman's personal beliefs. It should never be based on the beliefs of others, be they her father, mother, brother(s), sister(s) or government.

 

[Enigma'07]

Why must the head be covered to be modest?

 

[surenderer]

Why must the head be covered to be modest?

Because a womans hair is seen as being sensual....peace

 

[Enigma'07]

and men's isn't? I'm not arguing, just asking.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

There is a contradiction in your statement Bruce. While you may believe that that the headcovering is mandatory, it is still up to the individual woman to decide to wear the hijab. You yourself have stated that the choice of modesty rests on the individual person, so therefore, it should not be mandatory. Instead it should be a choice for the individual as to how modest they decide to be. It should not be for you to tell any individual and certainly not any woman as to what she should wear or not wear. If a woman does not wish to wear the hijab, then no one should force her to do so or make it mandatory that she does so. The same applies to any person or Government who states that a woman should not be allowed to wear it (for example France's laws banning the hijab). The wearing of the hijab is based on the individual woman's personal beliefs. It should never be based on the beliefs of others, be they her father, mother, brother(s), sister(s) or government.

I may not have been totally clear. I am not talking on the level of religion obligation. I am referring to the wisdom in creation. So, Let me rephrase. God could have created us without the notion of modesty. Instead he gave us the choice whether we are modest or not. So some women are modest and others are not. A woman in this world has a choice. Then God made known what he prefered, i.e. modesty. And that was a religious obligation. Now that women know what God expects of them. They still have the choice whether to comply with god's command and religious rules or not. The proof is the many Muslim and non-Muslim women that do not comply to God's command of modesty as it is stated in religious doctrine.

 

[Enigma'07]

"Now that women know what God expects of them"

Bruce, I thought that Muslims refered to God as Allah.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Allah would be better indeed. Because it is a unique name. It has no feminine nor plural. But I think that God is more adequate in our topic here. Because most people are more familiar with the term God.

 

[Enigma'07]

I know that with God there are several differant names for God, such as Jehoviah and Elohim, each with a slightly differant meaning. Do you do something simmilar with the name Allah?

 

[surenderer]

I know that with God there are several differant names for God, such as Jehoviah and Elohim, each with a slightly differant meaning. Do you do something simmilar with the name Allah?

No thats why muslims say ALLAH because you know whom we are referring to it has no plural meaning AL-means ultimate supreme LAH-means entity..... oh and to your other question women dont usually treat men as sex objects but men cant really say the same thats why women are suppose to dress "modest" but as i showed you in an earlier post men have rules according to dress also....peace

 

[Enigma'07]

I geuss the differant names in christian religions just helps reveil differant charactor traits of God.

 

[path]

Well.. I asked this questions to a lot of Muslim sisters and friends as well.. The responses were always because they chose to wear Hijab; and wearing Hijab made them feel better. Personally I admire these Muslim sisters who wear Hijab in the modern world. And in a modern world, i believe wearing Hijab or not is a personal choice for any Muslim girl (I know lots of Muslim girls who do not wear Hijab). So, the choice is there. And wearing Hijab (and following all Islamic rules in general) is choice, and all Muslims have to be
responsible for what they do.
(PS: I am not a Muslim)

Well I don't think muslim women in many muslim majority countries would say the hijab is optional. Here in Norway somali women who don't wear the hijab are openly called whores in public by other muslim women. I have a hard time admiring that kind of behaviour in modern women of any type hijab or no.

(PS: I am not a Muslim)

 

[Bells]

I may not have been totally clear. I am not talking on the level of religion obligation. I am referring to the wisdom in creation. So, Let me rephrase. God could have created us without the notion of modesty. Instead he gave us the choice whether we are modest or not. So some women are modest and others are not. A woman in this world has a choice. Then God made known what he prefered, i.e. modesty. And that was a religious obligation.

This is what never ceases to amaze me in religious doctrine. Those who believe in the notion of creation, be they Muslim, Christian, Jewish, believe that God created Adam and Eve, who lived happily in the Garden of Eden, who were seen to be pure and loved by God as they were created. They were created naked and lived naked until their minds were said to be corrupted by the devil and it was only then that they covered themselves and were later banished from the garden. Now no offence Bruce, but the notion of modesty in dress is a human belief. If God demanded that man and woman dress modestly, Adam and Eve would have been instructed to cover themselves before the eyes of God. Because when you come before God, you should not be covered, but instead allow God to see you as you are and as you were created, so that you have nothing to hide behind. This is where I find religious doctrine to be highly hypocritical. It is pounded into the heads of the believers that God created Adam and Eve who roamed naked because that was how they were created. It was not God who told them to cover themselves. It was not God who told them to dress modestly.

Now that women know what God expects of them. They still have the choice whether to comply with god's command and religious rules or not. The proof is the many Muslim and non-Muslim women that do not comply to God's command of modesty as it is stated in religious doctrine.

Sorry, but I think it's more a case of 'now that women know what man expects of them'. God never commanded that Eve cover herself. So how is it that now God has changed his mind and told women to cover themselves? Or could it be that it is man's interpretation of what God may want that has deemed it to be against 'God's' command to not dress modestly? I have stated this many times before on this issue. It is not for man to judge the level of modesty a woman employs in her dress. Your holy book states that it is up to the individual woman to decide whether she wears the hijab or not. God never told Eve to dress modestly, so why does religious doctrine dare try to judge how women dress or to judge a woman for not dressing as the religious doctrine demands? However, that aside, the religious doctrines state that both men and women must employ a level of modesty in how they dress. It does not give a list of what is considered to be modest. That is left up to the interpretation of the individual man and woman. The proof instead Bruce, is that the when you have a situation where the laws and society demand that women comply with the so called religious doctrine, such laws and society have taken away the individual's God given right to choose, as per your own religious doctrine.

Remember, it is not for you, or anyone else, to judge others on whether they adhere to your religious doctrine or not. In the end, it is God who judges. So instead of you saying that "the proof is the many Muslim and non-Muslim women that do not comply to God's command of modesty as it is stated in religious doctrine", maybe you should remind yourself of the point that it is not for you to decide or judge as to who complies with God's command of modesty, or God's command of anything else. Instead, remind yourself that if God so commands, then God will be the one to judge who lived up to his commands or not.

 

[surenderer]

Remeber i said that God wants women to be MODEST in their dress i dont take that to mean covered i take that to mean not "flaunting what you got" i mean think about it as a man how many of us when we see a women half-dressed think "boy i bet she's got a nice personality" or "boy i bet she's really intelligent" thats why the rule......peace

 

[white_poplar]

Remember, it is not for you, or anyone else, to judge others on whether they adhere to your religious doctrine or not. In the end, it is God who judges. So instead of you saying that "the proof is the many Muslim and non-Muslim women that do not comply to God's command of modesty as it is stated in religious doctrine", maybe you should remind yourself of the point that it is not for you to decide or judge as to who complies with God's command of modesty, or God's command of anything else. Instead, remind yourself that if God so commands, then God will be the one to judge who lived up to his commands or not.

I totally agree with u, Bell. It is God who will judge us. We dun have the right to judge over others, but be responsible for our own actions

 

[white_poplar]

Well I don't think muslim women in many muslim majority countries would say the hijab is optional. Here in Norway somali women who don't wear the hijab are openly called whores in public by other muslim women. I have a hard time admiring that kind of behaviour in modern women of any type hijab or no.

(PS: I am not a Muslim)

That is called group-norm, isnt it?
When I said I admire the Muslims who wear Hijab, I mean the one who choses to wear it because they understand the reasons behind it. Those Muslim women that i know have the choice not to wear Hijab. So I think it is different.
Personally I admire anyone who follows the religion wholeheartedly, with a deep understanding and respect to other religions as well.

 

[Bells]

Remeber i said that God wants women to be MODEST in their dress i dont take that to mean covered i take that to mean not "flaunting what you got" i mean think about it as a man how many of us when we see a women half-dressed think "boy i bet she's got a nice personality" or "boy i bet she's really intelligent" thats why the rule......peace

Mmmmmhmmm.. now tell me something surenderer, how is it then, that when God created man and woman, as believed by creationists, that God never made Adam and Eve cover themselves? They were instead said to be blessed by God and loved by him/her/it for being who they were... naked and all. For a God that so demands modesty, why was he so angered that Adam and Eve listened to the devil and covered themselves up? The notion of modesty is one that is demanded by man. If it was demanded by God, Adam and Eve would have been hearing about modest dress from God and not from Satan, wouldn't you say?

Whether a woman is naked, half naked or covered from head to toe, a man will not look at her and think 'she's got a nice personality'. A man will look at a woman (regardless of how she's dressed) and see what he wants to see. If he can't see it, it then leads the man to imagine what could be under there. A woman can dress as modestly as she possibly can, but that will never prevent the man from thinking luscious thoughts about what she's covering up. The same thoughts that a man has when he sees a woman naked/half naked or dressed immodestly can and does occur when that same man sees that same woman dressed modestly.

In reality, religious doctrines demand that a woman dress modestly so that she does not tempt the supposedly pious males who've decided to devote their lives to the religion of their choice.

 

[okinrus]

Whether a woman is naked, half naked or covered from head to toe, a man will not look at her and think 'she's got a nice personality'. A man will look at a woman (regardless of how she's dressed) and see what he wants to see. If he can't see it, it then leads the man to imagine what could be under there.

I don't think your a man Bells.

A woman can dress as modestly as she possibly can, but that will never prevent the man from thinking luscious thoughts about what she's covering up.

It's within most men's control to avoid such thoughts but immodesty makes it more difficult.

You are also coming from the standpoint of a unmarried women. Would you want your future husband checking out other girls?

 

[Bells]

I don't think your a man Bells.

Well I don't think I am either. My birth certificate seems to indicate that I'm female...

It's within most men's control to avoid such thoughts but immodesty makes it more difficult.

I'm sorry Okinrus, but that doesn't really wash with me. It is not for the woman to ensure that the man does not have 'such thoughts'. Any man, actually no, scratch that. Any person has, or should have, control over their thoughts. It is not up to the other person to prevent such thoughts from happening. If a woman is dressed in a bikini, it is not her fault if some guy looks at her and thinks impure thoughts.

You are also coming from the standpoint of a unmarried women. Would you want your future husband checking out other girls?

My marital status means nothing in this argument. If the man is going to look, he will look regardless of the fact if the woman is dressed modestly or immodestly. If he likes to look and 'think', he will have 'such thoughts' regardless of the way she is dressed. As I've stated above, it is not up to the woman to prevent the man from thinking evil luscious thoughts.

 

[everneo]

Hijab is not worn when mulsim women are at home, with their close male relatives like father, brothers, uncles etc are around. The display of hair for the view of other males is not advised.

Hijab should not be seen as an isolated wear. It comes when all other body parts are covered and only part left out is hair that might still draw 'attention' of other males. So cover that also..!!! That is the idea.

But, I've seen some girls wearing tight jeans and tops with hijab..?!!