Islam

[Enigma'07]

I don't know much about Islam, perhaps someone could enlighten me. If Allah created people, then why must they cover themselves to be considered modest? Wouldn't they be created just the way he wanted them to be?

 

[surenderer]

Hello Enigma,
I am a Sunni Muslim and although one does see alotta muslim women covering themselves it isnt mandatory. The reason alotta muslim women do cover themselves is because they dont wanna be treated as "sex objects" they believe that the sexuality of the female body is for her husbands eyes and his only.If you notice pictures of women from long ago (like in the biblical days) all of the women dressed this way. Also notice that Catholic Nuns and such dress this way also. Also so do Hindu women.Hope that helps you.....peace unto you

 

[§outh§tar]

In that case we should all be nudists...

EDIT: While we're at it, let's not learn languages since we were born with "Googoo gaga"...

 

[Enigma'07]

Hey Surenderer, what is the differance between Sunni Muslims and Shi'it Muslims?

 

[surenderer]

Well the short and easy answer is that before the death of the Prophet Muhamaad(saws) he never named a "sucessor" the Sunnis(which comprise 85% of the worlds muslims) believe that the most qualified person should lead the "ummma"( muslim community) while Shias(10% of the worlds muslims) beleive that the Prophets nephew Ali was the next sucessor and only the desendents of their family lineage can lead the community. There are other differences but that is the main one hope that helps you some....peace....oh yea the other 5% is Sufi's and other minority muslim grps

 

[everneo]

But the Shias quote several Sunni references also that the prophet named Ali as his successor in Ghadir Khum, holding up Ali's hand and saying "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his leader (Mawla). O' God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

Ali was also referred by the prophet as gate of the city of prophet's knowledge.

Ali was called by the prophet as "Amir-ul-Momineen" (Commander of the faithfuls).

Is it not reasonable to believe that the prophet really wanted Ali to succeed him.?

May be Ali was much younger than the first 3 Caliphs hence could not succeed the prophet ?

 

[path]

According to al quran women have a lower status than men.

And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree over them..." Quran Surah 2:228

Though I haven't seen it in the quran there are some hadiths that say the hijab is required whether this is followed or not depends on the validity placed on the particular hadith by muslims.

 

[surenderer]

Well its not resonable to think that Ali would be a better ruler simply because of blood lineage the Shia's are much more "extreme" in their beliefs bacause several(including Ali) of their leaders had been murdered


And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree over them..." Quran Surah 2:228


Although this has nothing to do with this particular thread and i could quote many of the same type of verses in the bible one has to remember that in pre-islamic times in Arabia women had NO rights. Female infantcide was normal and women were slaves to their men. The meaning of the verse above was that although the relationship between men and women was one of equality the man had final say in matters because he was usually the "bread-winner" in the family. I did notice that you skipped the verses right before that one.


And for women are rights over men similar to those of men over women. (2:226)

 

[path]

This is what USC has for 2:226 thru 2:228

002.226
YUSUFALI: For those who take an oath for abstention from their wives, a waiting for four months is ordained; if then they return, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Those who forswear their wives must wait four months; then, if they change their mind, lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: Those who swear that they will not go in to their wives should wait four months; so if they go back, then Allah is surely Forgiving, Merciful.

002.227
YUSUFALI: But if their intention is firm for divorce, Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
PICKTHAL: And if they decide upon divorce (let them remember that) Allah is Hearer, Knower.
SHAKIR: And if they have resolved on a divorce, then Allah is surely Hearing, Knowing.

002.228
YUSUFALI: Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
PICKTHAL: Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Where are you getting that verse? Women are not considered equal to men, in islamic jurisprudence you know how many women must bear witness to equal a mans testimony under sharia. Yes early christianity and today fundamentalist christians were and are very patriarchal as well (I am not christian btw)

 

[everneo]

Well its not resonable to think that Ali would be a better ruler simply because of blood lineage

Do you mean the prophet's words (refered in my previous post) were due to blood lineage of Ali.?!

I am interested in Sufi thoughts and their patron saint is Ali, the father of sufism.

Ali was much more qualified in many fields than any of his contemporaries. Thats why your answer about blood lineage looks strange and not in sync with facts.

the Shia's are much more "extreme" in their beliefs bacause several(including Ali) of their leaders had been murdered

Ali and Hussein were the Caliph & Imam for sunnis too. Were not they.?

Other than the Komeini, Sadr characters and annual self-inflicting mourning by shias, in what way they are more extreme than Wahabis.?

Again, I am not 'for' or 'against' any sect or religion.

 

[surenderer]

Do you mean the prophet's words (refered in my previous post) were due to blood lineage of Ali.?!

I am interested in Sufi thoughts and their patron saint is Ali, the father of sufism.

Ali was much more qualified in many fields than any of his contemporaries. Thats why your answer about blood lineage looks strange and not in sync with facts.



Ali and Hussein were the Caliph & Imam for sunnis too. Were not they.?

Other than the Komeini, Sadr characters and annual self-inflicting mourning by shias, in what way they are more extreme than Wahabis.?

Again, I am not 'for' or 'against' any sect or religion.

There are alotta doubts about some Hadiths between Sunnis and Shias that were written i dont know of the one you are refering to it could be that the Prophet was referring to a specific battle not as to his successor As far a Hussein is concerend Sunnis really on agree on the first 3 calips(Abu Bakr,Umar,and Uthman)with Ali being the 4th who was assassinated. As far as being qualified because of blood lineage i look at it on a personal level...... if.I have a older brother who is a "immoral" person and if I try to be rightous person should he get to receive the family fortune because he is the closest blood relative to our father? Sunni's believe that its the best man for the best job

 

[surenderer]

This is what USC has for 2:226 thru 2:228



Where are you getting that verse? Women are not considered equal to men, in islamic jurisprudence you know how many women must bear witness to equal a mans testimony under sharia. Yes early christianity and today fundamentalist christians were and are very patriarchal as well (I am not christian btw)

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/womenquransunnah.html


sorry i am at work so i can only answer with threads....peace

 

[Al hussein]

Why not imam Ali ,he could do things at that time tht no muslim could do eg -U know the battle of khayber where there were 7 forts the strongest of them QAMUS who captured it imam Ali as in that young age
-And in Eid ul gadeer When the prophet proclaimed
MAN KUNTUM MAWLA FA HAZA ALIUN MAWLA
(to whoever im the leader Ali will be his next leader)
-When the holy Prophet had died who was it that went to bury him it was imam Ali as and some followere everybody else was busy in saqqee deciding the next caliph,,at that time burying the prophet was important.

 

[Al hussein]

There are alotta doubts about some Hadiths between Sunnis and Shias that were written i dont know of the one you are refering to it could be that the Prophet was referring to a specific battle not as to his successor As far a Hussein is concerend Sunnis really on agree on the first 3 calips(Abu Bakr,Umar,and Uthman)with Ali being the 4th who was assassinated. As far as being qualified because of blood lineage i look at it on a personal level...... if.I have a older brother who is a "immoral" person and if I try to be rightous person should he get to receive the family fortune because he is the closest blood relative to our father? Sunni's believe that its the best man for the best job

one thing tht u have angered me is u Tellin me UR 4 th imam our first Imam was an immoral person,what makes u say that abusisive words we shias never abuse ur caliphs in public

 

[Al hussein]

and tht shows how ignorant u ppl are
Who were the first ppl to accept ISLAM bibi khadija and imam Ali as
who called the prophet crazy when he was lying on his death bed asking for a pen and paper(u knoe who i mean)

 

[Al hussein]

In that case we should all be nudists...

EDIT: While we're at it, let's not learn languages since we were born with "Googoo gaga"...

I didnt get u ,give some explanations

 

[Al hussein]

May be Ali was much younger than the first 3 Caliphs hence could not succeed the prophet ?

Didnt u know tht Ali used to go in battles fight for the prophet

and he(abu bakr) has been heard saying to the imam: I could not have lived in a time where u werent there .And tht shows his capablity

 

[surenderer]

one thing tht u have angered me is u Tellin me UR 4 th imam our first Imam was an immoral person,what makes u say that abusisive words we shias never abuse ur caliphs in public

first of all Salaam Alikum brother....... As a muslim I would NEVER insult an iman the example i used was just that... an example i follow the Prophet,sura's and Koran the rest doesnt matter to me whether Ali be the 2nd or 4th Caliph doesnt matter

 

[Al hussein]

first of all Salaam Alikum brother....... As a muslim I would NEVER insult an iman the example i used was just that... an example i follow the Prophet,sura's and Koran the rest doesnt matter to me whether Ali be the 2nd or 4th Caliph doesnt matter

Waalykum sallam
And it seems wrong tht we argue among ourselves they are the one who are insulting the prophet

 

[Vienna]

surenderer

I read the link you gave earlier and came across this:

"This clearly contradicts the assertion of the Christian Fathers that women do not possess souls and that they will exist as sexless beings in the next life."


Can you back this up?