Islam & Wife Beating

[Bells]

Bells I agree with you but the causes need to be adressed not just the symptoms and yes that goes for ALL causes not just the ones in islam.

What are the causes of spousal abuse though? Sure we can point the finger at Islam and say that it's in the Quran, blah, blah, blah. But the bottom line is that it's not just Muslims who partake in this disgusting practice. What it comes down to is whether all Muslims actually follow this rule? My guess would be that the majority hopefully do not, just like the majority of the male population who are married around the world do not beat their wives.

Should we expect all Muslims to denounce their religion because of some verses in their Quran? No I don't think anyone has a right to do so. If that were the case, then we should also expect all Christians to denounce their religions due to passages such as this particular one:

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.".. Leviticus 21:9

So if the girl is unpure, she is deemed a whore and should actually be burnt. Charming isn't it? But what I'm trying to say here is that such a thing is not practiced in Christianity, it's been outlawed. Just because it's in the Bible does not mean that Christians believe in it or that all practice it. The wife beating passage in the Quran is just that, a passage, written at a time where such actions were the norm, and the same goes for the above passage in the Bible, it was written at a time where such things were practiced. Doesn't mean that in today's society it's accepted or expected. Spousal abuse is a horrible thing for any woman and man to go through and the fact that it's written in the Quran does not mean that all Muslims practice it and accept it as such. Spousal abuse is not just connected to Muslims, it's connected to ALL societies. The fact that it's written in the Quran is not a cause. To deem it as such is to give the Muslim males who beat their wives an excuse. There's no excuse for the practice, be they Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Agnostic, Athiest, Mormon, etc.

 

[DoctorNO]

The wife beating passage in the Quran is just that, a passage, written at a time where such actions were the norm, and the same goes for the above passage in the Bible, it was written at a time where such things were practiced.

Bells,

* the Old Testament was given to the Jews. That is why Christians & muslims don’t follow the OT.

* the New Testament was given to the Christians. That is why Jews & Muslims don’t follow the NT. But Christians follow it in its entirety (with varying interpretations).

* the Quran was given to the muslims. That is why Jews & Christians don’t follow the Quran. But Muslims are supposed to follow it in its entirety including the wife beating verse. The quran in its entirely was supposed to be the latest revelation that is supposed to last for all time. That includes the wife beating verse.

Doesn't mean that in today's society it's accepted or expected.

It is in Islamic societies like Saudi Arabia, Iran & Afghanistan.

The fact that it's written in the Quran is not a cause. To deem it as such is to give the Muslim males who beat their wives an excuse.

It is not the cause but it does serve as an excuse. Sometimes I like to hit my wife too but I don’t have any excuse for doing so. And so I never harmed her. But what if I am a muslim? I will hold the quran with my left hand and punch my wife with my right. Such is the testimonies we hear of muslim domestic violence.

 

[leda]

Christian wedding vows traditionally make reference to the wife's duty to OBEY her husband, whereas he has a duty to PROTECT her.
Did everyone forget?

 

[DoctorNO]

Christian marriage ethics encourage wives to SUBMIT to their husbands and for husbands to LOVE their wives as they love their own body.

Pretty sensible isnt it?

 

[path]

What are the causes of spousal abuse though? Sure we can point the finger at Islam and say that it's in the Quran, blah, blah, blah. But the bottom line is that it's not just Muslims who partake in this disgusting practice.

When I said "ALL causes" I meant not just causes we might be able to attribute to islamic teaching, I know it can happen in any segment of society regardless of background. I am addressing islam specifically because of the thread we are in.

What it comes down to is whether all Muslims actually follow this rule? My guess would be that the majority hopefully do not, just like the majority of the male population who are married around the world do not beat their wives.

I am sure any muslim [or non-muslim for that matter)who loves and respects his wife is not going to be a wife beater.

Should we expect all Muslims to denounce their religion because of some verses in their Quran? No I don't think anyone has a right to do so. If that were the case, then we should also expect all Christians to denounce their religions due to passages such as this particular one:

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.".. Leviticus 21:9

So if the girl is unpure, she is deemed a whore and should actually be burnt. Charming isn't it? But what I'm trying to say here is that such a thing is not practiced in Christianity, it's been outlawed. Just because it's in the Bible does not mean that Christians believe in it or that all practice it.

Why not, if it is wrong it cannot be the word of an all merciful, knowing and loving god. I gave up christianity long ago for similar or even lesser reasons.

The wife beating passage in the Quran is just that, a passage, written at a time where such actions were the norm, and the same goes for the above passage in the Bible, it was written at a time where such things were practiced. Doesn't mean that in today's society it's accepted or expected.

This is simply not the case Bells and I would expect that you know better. One of, if not the fundamental tennent of islam is that the quran is the "direct word of god unaltered and valid for ALL times". To the faithful the quran is a miracle and is perfect. If muslims ever say that the quran is a collection of parables written by holy men to help mankind lead a better life (like most christians view the bible) then your argument will stand.

Spousal abuse is a horrible thing for any woman and man to go through and the fact that it's written in the Quran does not mean that all Muslims practice it and accept it as such.

probably true

Spousal abuse is not just connected to Muslims, it's connected to ALL societies.

I agree, I never claimed it was a muslim only problem.

The fact that it's written in the Quran is not a cause. To deem it as such is to give the Muslim males who beat their wives an excuse. There's no excuse for the practice, be they Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Agnostic, Athiest, Mormon, etc.

You have to make the connection here the quran gives women a lesser status than men and it's god's word. It is always the weaker segment of ANY society that gets abused, an unfortunate fact. Women being made Officially inferior, by god no less, can only contribute to their being victimized. I am sorry but no god wrote that book.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

* the Quran was given to the muslims. That is why Jews & Christians don’t follow the Quran. But Muslims are supposed to follow it in its entirety including the wife beating verse. The quran in its entirely was supposed to be the latest revelation that is supposed to last for all time. That includes the wife beating verse.

What wife beating verse ???? Here is your LIE exposed yet again:

Wife beating is not allowed in Islam in any case!

http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_no.htm

Enjoy DoctorHATE !

 

[(Q)]

JamesR

My source is a documentary about Muslim women who were secretly interviewed by another Muslim women, Nora Kevorkian. The documentary is called, "Veils Uncovered." I would highly recommend seeing this film and hearing what Muslim women have to say.

All my statements came directly from that documentary, which was filmed in Damascus.

So PM, these are the words from Muslim women, not me. Sorry, pal.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

You were saying PM?

And it's from the site you actually used. That was written just after the little list you put up. Shame you didn't post all that was on that site.

Shame on you bells for not being Honest, I quoted the site, why you dont scroll down the page I provided and post what it says !!

The english translation put the word IDREBOUHNA as beat while in Arabic, this word carry many meanings.

You can post the figures for wife beating in the West, it doesn't matter. It's a vile practice that exists everywhere. Women are abused on a daily basis all over the world. To point the finger saying yeah you do it more than we do is childish.

I am not pointing fingers, I am just remiding the HYPOCRITES HERE of this famous saying:

HE WHO LIVES IN GLASS HOUSE BETTER NOT TO THROW STONES AT OTHERS !

 

[Proud_Muslim]

JamesR

My source is a documentary about Muslim women who were secretly interviewed by another Muslim women, Nora Kevorkian. The documentary is called, "Veils Uncovered." I would highly recommend seeing this film and hearing what Muslim women have to say.

All my statements came directly from that documentary, which was filmed in Damascus.

So PM, these are the words from Muslim women, not me. Sorry, pal.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL ! No matter you guys are so retards, all your information are from biased jewish controled media sources !!!

Keep watching Movies !! this is the best and the only ''reliable'' source of information any westerner can dream of !!

 

[DoctorNO]

Wife beating is not allowed in Islam in any case!

http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_no.htm

PM, dont you read your own articles? Read...

• 
  Wife beating anytime and for any reason is never allowed in Islam. There is however a questionable condition where Allah Almighty seems to allow the husband to beat his wife, and that is after he gives her two warnings to stop showing ill-conduct and disloyalty.
  
  Let us look at Noble Verses 4:34-36 "(34). Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

"Wife beating anytime and for any reason is never allowed in Islam. "

I agree with that. But the quran does command husbands to beat their misbehaving wives that wont listen to them even if the husband wont sleep with them.

SUCH IS THE WIFE-BEATING VERSE!

 

[Proud_Muslim]

HERE YA GO PAL!

• 
  Wife beating anytime and for any reason is never allowed in Islam. There is however a questionable condition where Allah Almighty seems to allow the husband to beat his wife, and that is after he gives her two warnings to stop showing ill-conduct and disloyalty.
  
  http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_no.htm

Here you go DoctorHate:

The Arabic word used in Noble Verse 4:34 above is "idribuhunna", which is derived from "daraba" which means "beat". The issue with all of the Arabic words that are derived from the word "daraba" is that they don't necessarily mean "hit"

The word "idribuhunna" for instance, could very well mean to "leave" them. It is exactly like telling someone to "beat it" or "drop it" in English.

Allah Almighty used the word "daraba" in Noble Verse 14:24 "Seest thou not how Allah sets (daraba) forth a parable? -- A goodly Word Like a goodly tree, Whose root is firmly fixed, And its branches (reach) To the heavens". "daraba" here meant "give an example". If I say in Arabic "daraba laka mathal", it means "give you an example".

Allah Almighty also used the word "darabtum", which is derived from the word "daraba" in Noble Verse 4:94, which mean to "go abroad" in the sake of Allah Almighty:

"O ye who believe! When ye go abroad (darabtum) In the cause of Allah, Investigate carefully, And say not to anyone Who offers you a salutation: 'Thou art none of a Believer!' Coveting the perishable good Of this life: with Allah Are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves Before, till Allah conferred On you His favours: therefore Carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware Of all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:94)"

So "daraba" literally means "beat", or "go abroad", or "give" but not in the sense to give something by hand, but rather to give or provide an example.

Important Note: Notice how Allah Almighty in Noble Chapter (Surah) 4 He used "daraba (4:34" and "darabtum (4:94)", which are both derived from the same root. He used both words in the same Chapter, which tells me that "daraba" in Noble Verse 4:34 means to desert or leave, since that's what its derived word meant in Noble Verse 4:94. The next section below will further prove my point.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_no.htm

Enjoy !!

 

[DoctorNO]

The english translation put the word IDREBOUHNA as beat while in Arabic, this word carry many meanings.

Such as the word "strike" has many meanings. But when used with a person object the word strike could only mean "beat".

Your official translators translated that word as "beat" & "scourge". Read...

• 
  004.034
  YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
  PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
  SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

 

[(Q)]

PM

all your information are from biased jewish controled media sources !!!

So, a documentary about Muslims made by Muslims is controlled by Jews? Then it would stand to reason that everything you have presented thus far from your biased Muslim sources is also controlled by Jews.

Can you see how ridiculous your statement is now?

 

[DoctorNO]

The word "idribuhunna" for instance, could very well mean to "leave" them. It is exactly like telling someone to "beat it" or "drop it" in English.

Depends on the subject, my friend. The islamic scholars Yusufali, shakir & pickthal knows best. They know that the word means beat or scourge when used on a person object.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

PM

all your information are from biased jewish controled media sources !!!

So, a documentary about Muslims made by Muslims is controlled by Jews? Then it would stand to reason that everything you have presented thus far from your biased Muslim sources is also controlled by Jews.
Can you see how ridiculous your statement is now?

Made by Muslims !!! are you for real ???????

Keep watching movies, this is the utmost source of information you guys can have !!! very amusing !!

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Depends on the subject, my friend. The islamic scholars Yusufali, shakir & pickthal knows best. They know that the word means beat or scourge when used on a person object.

You lost it mate.......go and learn some Arabic so that you will be more professional in your hate !!

 

[DoctorNO]

You lost it mate.......go and learn some Arabic so that you will be more professional in your hate !!

That my friend is the 7th Reason for Rejecting Islam. People couldnt understand that barbaric religion without knowing classical arabic.


Besides, arent the scholars Yusufali, Shakir & Pickthal arab speakers themselves?

 

[Bells]

Why not, if it is wrong it cannot be the word of an all merciful, knowing and loving god. I gave up christianity long ago for similar or even lesser reasons.

I'm the same. But I don't expect others to leave their religions because I have found them to be unfit for human consumption. Each person has to make up their own minds as to what they are to believe or follow. I hope that Muslims do the same in regards to the Quran, just as I hope that Christians do the same when it comes to the bible.

This is simply not the case Bells and I would expect that you know better. One of, if not the fundamental tennent of islam is that the quran is the "direct word of god unaltered and valid for ALL times". To the faithful the quran is a miracle and is perfect. If muslims ever say that the quran is a collection of parables written by holy men to help mankind lead a better life (like most christians view the bible) then your argument will stand.

I guess one can always be hopeful that a sane and intelligent person would admit that there are verses in religious text that are reprehensible and that it is not all too perfect. As I said, I'm hopeful. I've seen so many cases of spousal abuse that I sometimes find myself retreating back into just being hopeful....

You have to make the connection here the quran gives women a lesser status than men and it's god's word. It is always the weaker segment of ANY society that gets abused, an unfortunate fact. Women being made Officially inferior, by god no less, can only contribute to their being victimized. I am sorry but no god wrote that book.

Unfortunately, many religious texts also view women as being inferior. Hence one of the main reasons I 'saw the light' and got the hell out.

Christian marriage ethics encourage wives to SUBMIT to their husbands and for husbands to LOVE their wives as they love their own body.

Shame it doesn't advocate the husband submitting to the wife as the wife is supposed to submit to the husband. The words 'submit' and 'obey' should never be in marriage vows. Talk about cavemen mentality.

Shame on you bells for not being Honest, I quoted the site, why you dont scroll down the page I provided and post what it says !!

The site says what it says PM. I read through the whole page and it kept being repeated.

The Arabic word used in Noble Verse 4:34 above is "idribuhunna", which is derived from "daraba" which means "beat". The issue with all of the Arabic words that are derived from the word "daraba" is that they don't necessarily mean "hit". The word "idribuhunna" for instance, could very well mean to "leave" them. It is exactly like telling someone to "beat it" or "drop it" in English.

It's in the interpretation. Some who choose to abuse their wives will justify it by saying that it means beat, and others who do not beat their wives will view it as saying 'leave'. Further down on that page it talks about beating on the face. The whole thing is despicable and cowardly. While you may disagree that the Quran does say that one can 'beat' one's wife, others however, will see it as being opposite to that. Just like some males think that their wife is their property and therefore they can beat and rape them, and no I'm not just talking about in Islam, but the plight of women all over the world. Islam in effect means nothing in the scheme of things when it comes to spousal abuse and the rights of women in general. The Quran may say to beat your wife or it may say you can't beat your wife, regardless of what is written in ANY holy book, some men are cowardly enough to do it and they probably don't give a crap about what any religion or law says about it, they'll just do it because they think they can and they think they are superior to their wives. Religion on this issue means nothing because when that fist is being pounded into that woman's face, it's not religion that's allowing him to do it, it's the fact that it's his mindset and his cowardice that allows him to do it.

I am not pointing fingers, I am just remiding the HYPOCRITES HERE of this famous saying:

HE WHO LIVES IN GLASS HOUSE BETTER NOT TO THROW STONES AT OTHERS !

True, but while you're reminding all of us of this, maybe you should also remind yourself of it as well. We're all guilty of throwing stones, including you.

 

[DoctorNO]

Even the muslim Reformer Rashad Khalifah translated that verse as...

• 
  34. The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme. Marriage Arbitration

Proud Muslim if you cant stand what the quran is telling you then do the reasonable thing to do and LEAVE ISLAM!

 

[Proud_Muslim]

That my friend is the 7th Reason for Rejecting Islam. People couldnt understand that barbaric religion without knowing classical arabic. Besides, arent the scholars Yusufali, Shakir & Pickthal arab speakers themselves?

Good, we dont need people like you, you are more of liability than gain !