Islam is NOT one of the many religions

[JustARide]

No. I mean there is only one religion, because there is only ONE SINGLE UNIVERSAL SYSTEM that operates, that we all are subjected to and that we all need to understand and live in accordance for our own benefit.

If we can get rid of the idea of god, it will easily open up to us that we do not need to follow any religions, which are all a result of people's preconceptions, but we need to understand the universal system and order for our own benefit.

Yes, Sufi, but no one can be told what the Matrix is...

 

[invert_nexus]

Sounds like it's time to come up with the Orange Catholic Bible (from Dune. All faiths integrated... Except for the dirty tleilaxu... Who strangely enough were Sufi if I remember right. Never did much digging on what sufi is). It would be nice, imagine how much less strife there would be in the world. But, with a single religion covering so many cultures... Each culture would interpret the new dogma in a different way and we'd probably see the ultimate in holy wars as a result.

Nah, the solution is to get rid of religion, not to integrate it. We're fully capable of followiing our own moral codes than when the Bible (and the Q'uran) was made. People are able to form coherent groups without an overwhelming religious code. We'd still be split up by culture, but at least we could blame culture rather than religion. One step closer to the root of the problem, so to speak.

I do like your idea of There is no God. There is only Allah. But, what exactly is Allah to you? I only perused through your book (or whoever's) and didn't gain a full understanding of what Allah is. Is he of the Q'uran? So even though Allah is not God. The Q'uran is still the Word or something? Why don't you go one step farther and say There is no Q'uran...?

And what about conflict between this There is no God sect and everyone who believes there is a god. I don't think that you're going to be able to do some translation linguistics to the Torah and find out that it's saying the same thing. Sounds like what you're doing is still considered conflict. You are in fact an atheist. Do you consider yourself one? Or is it more complex?

Because, there are NOT many religions at all. There is only one religion explained by all prophets, which was finally named as Islam by Mohammed (pbuh).

Sounds aggressive to me. This is the problem with monotheistic religions. If there is only one god. Then it must be their god and no other. This is just trouble waiting to happen. Same could be said for a no god religion. And you're still pushing your book as the right one, which is what it all comes down to in the end. If you cut through the metaphysical layers. It's about a book and it's about cultures. Arguing the nature of god is just spinning your wheels in the mud. IMO. The root problems remain.

Wrong. Alif before a word doesn't negate its meaning. It strengthens it. As in "Akbar", the greatest. Here "Ahad" means "The one/unique".

Wouldn't that then strengthen "limit" which would make if even more limited? Or is it like a limited edition kind of thing so god is a limited edition of one?

Their notion of Ahad as limitless and the way you have explained it, means that everything is Allah. By that logic, everything between you, Hitler, satan, the anti-christ... etc, etc is God.

Not an uncommon notion. Is this sufism? That we are all god? That god is his creation?

Religion is not some orders sent by a god from above to make fun of people. It is the System that operates in the universe which we are subjected to. We need to understand this system and be aligned with it in order to know our true selves and avoid from the losses of ignorance.

Definitely sounds like trouble waiting to happen. At least the one good thing about religion is that it has been dogmatized. Things were a lot stickier when the various sects were duking it out amongst themselves. Now, at least, it's just a few different religions that are dueling. You'd open up the can of worms by claiming that God is once more open to interpretation.

No. I mean there is only one religion, because there is only ONE SINGLE UNIVERSAL SYSTEM that operates, that we all are subjected to and that we all need to understand and live in accordance for our own benefit.

Yes, I think we get your point. And this one single universal religion is Islam? With minor corrections of course...

But there is only one Religion, that was named as Islam. From this point of view, people's Muslimism, Christianity or Judaism, etc, is what they understand of Islam (not Muslimism) --the only and one religion.

So, as long as they call it Islam it's cool? What if I worshipped a strange fungus creature in my back yard? If I called it Islam would it be cool? Or would I have to obey the concepts of the real Islam and not worship an idol?

I imagine you only include the Abrahamic Religions in your net? What about Hindu? Is that Islam as well?

Yes, Sufi, but no one can be told what the Matrix is...

Quite. And insightful. One must penetrate beyond the surface "pretties." What's underneath? Same old situation? Just a new name, or rather a new translation.


Sufi,

You've never answered Bruce's question which is a bad sign. Do you read Arabic? Are you even qualified to argue this matter? You've gone from translation "errors" to a vague "oneness" of Islam. Is this sufism? Are you really a sufi?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Wouldn't that then strengthen "limit" which would make if even more limited? Or is it like a limited edition kind of thing so god is a limited edition of one?

It was to show that "Ahad" could never be "without limits". Although I speak arabic I would not like to pass judgment easily in such matters. Students at al.azhaf in Egypt (used to) spend 20 years learning arabic. And most of them were fluent in it before they started their studies. This is not a light matter.

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You do not have to fear of learning further, dear! Yes, everything between you, Hitler, satan, the anti-christ... etc, etc may be God! Yet, Allah is not a god... Got it?

God is not the best word for it, yet that is the best thing English offers.

To understand some facts, we need to think without an image of god in our minds --no matter if we accept or deny it-- but without it!

It might come as a surprise but I did not need any holy man for that. Fortunately the Qur'an is sufficient for me not to think of Allah in the form of an image because there is nothing like Him.

I wish, by the grace of Allah it would be possible for you to read the book Mohammed's Allah and learn from there that by "Allah is ahad", IT DOES NOT MEAN EVERYTHING IS ALLAH.

Here I do admit that I judged you as a Sufi in general. But since you probably don't follow the most influencial sufi's or might not know of their existence I will limit myself to what you write. Now in order for Allah to be limitless, you say that we don't exist. My question to you, do the stars and the universe exist or are they absent too.

One's conflict with this point will end as soon as one purifies his mind of any precconception of god --no matter how you name him--. Everything is not Allah, but to understand what this means, there is only one chance that is to spare more time to READ and learn.

Here I have to askyou something very important; do you believe in the Qur'an and do you folllow it?

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

No. I mean there is only one religion, because there is only ONE SINGLE UNIVERSAL SYSTEM that operates,

I though that nothing 'outside' Allah existed??

that we all are subjected to and that we all need to understand and live in accordance for our own benefit

.

As Islam states creation is in a state of Islam/submisiion to God. We need to understand that we too need to do that.

If we can get rid of the idea of god, it will easily open up to us that we do not need to follow any religions, which are all a result of people's preconceptions, but we need to understand the universal system and order for our own benefit.

The two points here are separate. We always need to know more about our environment and creation as Allah and His prphet -peace be upon him- have thaught us.

If you read the Qur'an, in what language do read it? and by whom iare it's meanings translated?

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Sufi,

That would only work if everyone else agreed with your assertions. But since Islam is primitive and barbaric and many can see this then conflict is inevitable until Islam is destroyed, loses all its followers, or brings itself up to date with reality.

Kat

Tell me, why is Islam primitive and Barbaric?

And tell me, how do you plan to eradicate it??

 

[Sufi]

.

What if I worshipped a strange fungus creature in my back yard? If I called it Islam would it be cool? Or would I have to obey the concepts of the real Islam and not worship an idol?

Nothing is outside this universal system. For instance, one can be a heretic. But s/he is still a servant of Allah... However, we are told in the Koran what actions and deeds will be rewarded how, that is how you will be returned of your thoughts and deeds in this system. When you eat honey, you are healed, but when you drink sthg poisonous, you give harm to yourself. That's the system. As you row, so you reap --without the interference of a god. Therefore we need to get rid of our social conditionings, standards of judgments, and start making required investigations in effort to understand this single Universal System and Order organized by the basic whole one at the essence.

Kul kullun yaamalu ala shaqilatihi: All things act according to their disposition." (the Koran)

Whether you worship a fungus or a god in the sky, in either case you will still be fulfilling the reason for which you are there and you are still performing your service to Allah --not to a god at the farther side--.

If only we could manage to get rid of our preconditionings and avoid basing our opinions on our preconceptions.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Kul kullun yaamalu ala shaqilatihi: All things act according to their disposition." (the Koran)

Sufi, first when you quote the Qur'an you should quote at least the one verse, complete! This in order not to lose any part of the meaning such is the case here.

Second for all our sake it would be the good think to do to tell us where in the Qur'an that verse is situated. In this case:

Al-Isra (The Journey by Night) 17: verse 84

"Everyone acts according to his own disposition: But your Lord knows best who it is that is best guided on the Way."

I hae to explain this for fear of error but someone has to. Here the verse is not about "All things" it is about "everyone" this my conclusion based upon arabic not upon this translations by Yusuf Ali.

If you had finished the sentence you would have seen that Allah speaks of men not things. He speaks of best guided which is clearly about humans (and Jinn) since all what has no freewill is always well guided by the Creator and Sustainer.

:m:

 

[Sufi]

Dear Bruce,
I believe you are a good Muslim. I send you my love.
May Allah increase your knowledge.

 

[StarOfEight]

Sounds like it's time to come up with the Orange Catholic Bible (from Dune. All faiths integrated... Except for the dirty tleilaxu... Who strangely enough were Sufi if I remember right. Never did much digging on what sufi is). It would be nice, imagine how much less strife there would be in the world. But, with a single religion covering so many cultures... Each culture would interpret the new dogma in a different way and we'd probably see the ultimate in holy wars as a result.

If we got rid of religion, or integrated 'em, or whatever ... we'd have Trekkies suicide bombing Star Wars conventions.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Dear Bruce,
I believe you are a good Muslim.

I beg to differ. I am not a good Muslim. Being a good Muslim means achieving levels that but a handfull do in this age.

I send you my love.

Thank you. (Muslims say: Assalaamu 3alaikum. peace be onto you)

May Allah increase your knowledge.

Amien...

But tell me do you or do you not understand Arabic? I also urge you to learn about Islam. The sects are leading you nowhere good.

peace be unto you.

 

[Sufi]

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=630958#post630958

 

[Leo Volont]

When is a Religion valid?

Religions are not valid simply because they are able to fool a great deal of people. Religions are valid when they demonstate that they actually point to the True Way -- that they lead to actual Mystical Revelations and the Miraculous which is the Hallmark of the Divine Spirit of God. A Valid Religion must give us genuine Saints.

Yes, Islam has given us genuine Saints, albight Sufis who insist that their Orders actually predate Islam. But Catholicism has given us authentic Saints, and so has the Sanskrit Traditions of India. Therefore, is seems a usurpation and an exaggeration for Islam to claim to be the ONLY True Religion.

Besides, such an argument is confrontational. No Ecumenical Unity will ever be established which depends on people completely renouncing the Religion of their family and/or nation. A workable Ecumenical Unity must preserve essential elements of each People's Religion Tradition.

Yes, Islam is important in that it reaffirmed Monotheism in the face of the Christian heresy of polytheistic Trinitarianism. In the Ecumenical Future Christianity will have to surrender its insistance on 3 Gods.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Religions are not valid simply because they are able to fool a great deal of people. Religions are valid when they demonstate that they actually point to the True Way -- that they lead to actual Mystical Revelations and the Miraculous which is the Hallmark of the Divine Spirit of God. A Valid Religion must give us genuine Saints.

Therefore, is seems a usurpation and an exaggeration for Islam to claim to be the ONLY True Religion.

Based on what you assumed it is. But a religion is valid because it was ordained by the Creator and nothing else. So One religion can claim that it has the Truth! There are, however, other things that show us, mortals, that a religion is indeed a true religion. "By their fruits you shall know them."

 

[Leo Volont]

But a religion is valid because it was ordained by the Creator and nothing else. "

But to know that God has ordained a 'Religion' we require God's Signature -- signs and wonders -- Miracles -- are the necessary signature of God. Without accompanying signs of God, we should dismiss human assertion, at least to the level of well intended advise -- not as a morally binding Religion.

We need to consider the episode of Elijah against the 400 Priests of Bale. He offered them a challenge -- he represented the True Religion who could bring down Fire from Heaven.

Likewise with Saint Patrick against the Druids in Ireland. He challenged them to a debate and, instead of doing much speaking, cursed to death every Druid who spoke against him. After two dead Druid Priests fell at the foot of their podium, the Druids adroitly decided upon the Truth of Catholicism and converted en mass.

It is within our rights to ask for God's signature.

 

[Persol]

Actualy, there are several religions.

You are just trying to say that they are false and Islam is right. You are just doing it in such a way that people don't just ignore you.

I believe the 'single universal system' you are talking about is
1) Not the only one
2) Not very universal
3) Not much of a system regardless

I also believe that you are one of the few people on Earth that will look at another religion and say 'nope, you don't exist.' Please, oh wise one, tell us what Chritiantiy, Judaism, etc are if they are not religions.

 

[Leo Volont]

Please, tell us what Chritiantiy, Judaism, etc are if they are not religions.

There are religions and there are Religions. Arnold Toynbee differentiated between Higher Moral Religions and Primitive Religions. Modern Judaism has degenerated back to the Primitive. No longer a force for morality, it has degenerated back to being one tribes excuse for depravating another. Judaism is now only a rational for the Zionists to pick up the mantle from the fallen Nazis and for them now to claim to be The Master Race.

Catholicism is a Higher Religion. But the Antinomimal quality of Christianity (Protestants do call themselves Christians, while withholding that title from Catholics) prevents them from claiming status as a Higher Religion. Faith in Salvation is not enough to be a Higher Religion. There must be an emphasis on a Charitable Social Morality. With American Protestants falling inline behind Conservative Republican Doctrine that Greed is the New Virtue, it is scarcely tenable anymore that Protestants have any true Morality as Christ would see it.

 

[Persol]

That's all well and good, but you are falling into the habit of over-generalization. Just because the most visible leaders of a religion act immorally, doesn't mean that individuals within the religion act morally, and doesn't mean that the religion is any more 'wrong' than any other.

Using this logic, Islam falls in just as low as Judiasm. Zionists are just more organized and have bigger toys.

 

[surenderer]

That's all well and good, but you are falling into the habit of over-generalization. Just because the most visible leaders of a religion act immorally, doesn't mean that individuals within the religion act morally, and doesn't mean that the religion is any more 'wrong' than any other.

Using this logic, Islam falls in just as low as Judiasm. Zionists are just more organized and have bigger toys.

Well to the Anti-Islamic, Anti-Semetic and Anti-Christian the "immoral" leaders are the ones usually used as an example for the entire religion Osama comes immediatly to mind to the Christian but Hitler (a christian) somehow doesnt. The religion should be judged on it's message.....nothing more....peace

 

[Leo Volont]

Using this logic, Islam falls in just as low as Judiasm. Zionists are just more organized and have bigger toys.

Actually, the Islamic Universities which decide upon moral and religious issues have come down on the side of non-violence. The small independent schools, where they advocate violence, rest on its defensive posture.

Zionism, on the otherhand, is blatantly on the attack. The American Protestants who support Zionism are clearly bent on World Conquest -- the people who are for attacking Islam were out to attack Islam long before 9/11. They read the Book of Revelation and have decided that Israel and Israel's allies were to conquer the World. So, throwing out all moral constraints, they aim to pillage the World because they suppose they have God's permission.

So, when you compare Jew to Muslim, there can be no equivalency unless you can somehow equate the Aggressor with the Victim. The first commits the violence and the second reacts to it, but to you it comes out as being the same. It is a failure to make the proper distinctions. Aggression and Defense are morally Black and White. You need to see that.