Islam for the Western Mind

[Proud_Syrian]

To discuss the position that religious belief should have in Western thought presents certain problems. Islam has a definite set of prescriptions on what is good thinking and hence the sort of thinking which leads to religious belief.

It is circular to argue that you should think according to the teachings of Islam, then you will come to accept the authority of Islam and its teachings - in particular its teachings about ways in which you should think. In avoiding this the arguments are presented about the sources of knowledge and about the sins of disbelief without basing them on the authority of Islamic teachings, although in fact this can easily be done. The arguments also try to avoid being based on historical evidence or on opinions of respected people since these are inevitably selective and contentious. Instead the appeal is directly to the mind and conscience of the reader, seeking to find common ground for building a better understanding of Islam.

http://www.islamic.org.uk/I4WM/

The Holy Mosque in the Holy city of Mecca...Breath-taking !

 

[spidergoat]

Religious beliefs present certain problems. Thought, as well, is a problem. Better to get rid of these things entirely, otherwise we will all fall victim to the mass pep rally brainwashing mind control slaughter fest pictured above.

 

[Proud_Syrian]

Originally posted by spidergoat
Religious beliefs present certain problems. Thought, as well, is a problem. Better to get rid of these things entirely, otherwise we will all fall victim to the mass pep rally brainwashing mind control slaughter fest pictured above.

As you cant imagine a city running without traffic lights which tell cars when to stop and when to go, you can live your life without SPIRITUAL traffic lights that tell you when and where to stop...religion, and specially, the only true religion (Islam ), is the one who provides such traffic lights.

http://www.harunyahya.com

 

[spidergoat]

Animals don't require religion, how do they survive?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by spidergoat
Animals don't require religion, how do they survive?

Through the One Spirit of God who also dwells within them. God is a force of positive energy. We call it "spirit," but it's simply electricity at the molecular level.

 

[Proud_Syrian]

Originally posted by spidergoat
Animals don't require religion, how do they survive?

They survive by instinct....

 

[spidergoat]

If so, can't we survive the same way? Don't we have "instincts"? Are we not animals with certain abilities?

 

[Michael]

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian

The Holy Mosque in the Holy city of Mecca...Breath-taking ! [/B]

I really like this picture. A number of idea’s and questions came to mind when I seen it. First, I think the Mosque looks more beautiful at night. Also, it reminded me of a certain cathedral in the Vatican City. Both of which make their point that “herein lies religious authority” by their grandiose. On a smaller scale the heads on Easter Island may have represented something similar and the Great Pyramids on a grander. The people that made these structures should be applauded and praised. Again – this is a beautiful edifice.

It got me thinking. Someone somewhere here said something about Mecca being a center of worship prior to Islam and that the name Allah was the same name of the deity worshipped then as the one worshipped now? Is that true?

Second question, what is the significance of the structure in the middle? From the picture one would almost assume it was an idol? I know that can not be because Islam doesn’t have idols. Anyway, why the reverence for the square structure in the middle? How long has it been revered? Is it also pre-Islam or post Islam? I wonder because as I mentioned I thought Mecca was the center of worship pre-Islam and that the name Allah was a carry over so maybe it this structure was there as well?

Lastly, I’ll repeat yet again, these questions are from an Atheist so I am in no way making an attempt to slander Islam. As an Atheist of course I see religious structures whether it be the Ancient Roman Senate or a Korean Pagoda in a certain light and from a certain psychological perspective also I have an interest in religious history. Secular study of religious history that is.
Thanks

 

[Proud_Syrian]

Originally posted by spidergoat
If so, can't we survive the same way? Don't we have "instincts"? Are we not animals with certain abilities?

No, we are not animals with certain abilities, we are HUMANS and there are so many differences between the two.

we do have instincts (Sex, food, drink ) but we do have BRAIN too and the ability to make judgment and rational thoughts, look at the history of mankind regarding building, art, music...etc Animals cant produce such amazing achievements.

 

[Proud_Syrian]

Re: Re: Islam for the Western Mind

Originally posted by Michael

It got me thinking. Someone somewhere here said something about Mecca being a center of worship prior to Islam and that the name Allah was the same name of the deity worshipped then as the one worshipped now? Is that true?
================================
P S:

Thanks for your questions and the civil manners you use to ask them..

First, You are right that Mecca was the center of worshipp prior to Islam, it was the center of the Abrahamic religions.

Allah is NOT the name of the same deity worshipped then, Allah is the arabic name of God, some haters and christian missionaries ( not you ) try to spread this famous lie saying that Allah is the Moon God worshipped before the coming of Islam, here is a very famous link that refute this theory:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html

further more, here is the Quran telling us NOT to worshipp the sun and the moon:

''And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Prostrate not to the sun nor to the moon, but prostrate to Allah Who created them, if you (really) worship Him. (41:37)

=============================

Second question, what is the significance of the structure in the middle? From the picture one would almost assume it was an idol? I know that can not be because Islam doesn’t have idols. Anyway, why the reverence for the square structure in the middle? How long has it been revered? Is it also pre-Islam or post Islam? I wonder because as I mentioned I thought Mecca was the center of worship pre-Islam and that the name Allah was a carry over so maybe it this structure was there as well?
=================================

P S:

The Structure in the middle is called KAABA, it is not an idol but a house covered with black dress adorned with goldern writings from the Quran, this house was built by ABRAHAM ( the father of all prophets ) as the first place to worshipp Allah ( God )

Allah said in the Quran:

''[Quran; 2:125] We have rendered the shrine (the Ka`aba) a focal point for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham's shrine as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail: "You shall purify My house for those who visit, those
who live there, and those who bow and prostrate."
==================================

Lastly, I’ll repeat yet again, these questions are from an Atheist so I am in no way making an attempt to slander Islam. As an Atheist of course I see religious structures whether it be the Ancient Roman Senate or a Korean Pagoda in a certain light and from a certain psychological perspective also I have an interest in religious history. Secular study of religious history that is.
Thanks
=====================================
P S :

No problem my friend, I appreciate so much your civility and the manners in which you raise your questions, as regard to you being an athiest, I have no problem with that, it is your own free choice and in Islam, Allah tells us in the quran: NO COMPLUSION IN RELIGION.

Salam ( Peace ).

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
it's simply electricity at the molecular level.

You have no idea how dumb that is, but I guess that's what happens when you eschew physics in favor of ancient astronauts and semen stories.

 

[Ghassan Kanafani]

The Moongod

Originally posted by Michael
Someone somewhere here said something about Mecca being a center of worship prior to Islam and that the name Allah was the same name of the deity worshipped then as the one worshipped now? Is that true?

No , this is not true .

First of all you should have the right perspective regarding the historical outlining of the "worship" at Mecca , what you are aiming at falls within the polytheistic pre-Qu'ranic practices , and these one were not the first ways in which the Ka'aba in Mecca was used theologically speaking .

The Ka'aba is originally of Abraham and his son Ismail , and long after that time it got used polytheistically , it's origin is different .

What you aim at deals with the Moongod Alla that emerged from the Moongod Hubal , if I am correct . Alla was part of the 360 pantheon within the Ka'aba , Muhammad himself ended this practice .

The issue is one dealing with translative errors , and a phonetic incorrect assumption . They may write in the English language Allah the Moongod in the same way they write it in Islamic sense , in Arabic this is not the case .

1) It does not sound the same when pronounced in Arabic .
2) It is not written the same in modern Arabic .
3) It does not exist in ancient Arabic .

Second question, what is the significance of the structure in the middle? From the picture one would almost assume it was an idol? I know that can not be because Islam doesn’t have idols. Anyway, why the reverence for the square structure in the middle? How long has it been revered? Is it also pre-Islam or post Islam? I wonder because as I mentioned I thought Mecca was the center of worship pre-Islam and that the name Allah was a carry over so maybe it this structure was there as well?

That is the Ka'aba of Abraham and his son Ismail . In the in-between period it became used for polytheism , in which the infamous Alla had a role as well .

You can say its is pre-Qu'ranic , but since Abraham is considered a Muslim it is not pre-Islamic . It has been used un-Islamic during the period in between , it is not un-Islamic heritage of a new religion , Islam .

As an Atheist of course I see religious structures whether it be the Ancient Roman Senate or a Korean Pagoda in a certain light and from a certain psychological perspective also I have an interest in religious history. Secular study of religious history that is.

I am happy that you describe your vision as psychological and historically orientated , however I am affraid that the approach to categorize the philosophies/theologies/practices within a religious study , oftenly neglects the details that give difference and identity , as well that it presumes centric religious perspectives , oftenly western .

It is for these reasons that monotheism , polytheism weither through religion or mythology has gotten very generalized defintions , who are at the very least in some instances completely off .

Oftenly when these things are studied , the group of study is a random masse than rather the intellectuals and philosophers of these groups , this encourages the simplicism in the defining of the "religious" practices/thoughts .

 

[Michael]

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
No, we are not animals with certain abilities, we are HUMANS and there are so many differences between the two.

we do have instincts (Sex, food, drink ) but we do have BRAIN too and the ability to make judgment and rational thoughts, look at the history of mankind regarding building, art, music...etc Animals cant produce such amazing achievements.

Humans are animals. There is no mistaking that. However, the term "animal" is just one of a million different nomenclature used to categorize living things in our world. It’s not an insult to say humans are animals – it’s just simply a category.

 

[Redoubtable]

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
No, we are not animals with certain abilities, we are HUMANS and there are so many differences between the two.

Like what?

 

[Michael]

Re: The Moongod

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
The Structure in the middle is called KAABA, it is not an idol but a house covered with black dress adorned with goldern writings from the Quran, this house was built by ABRAHAM ( the father of all prophets ) as the first place to worshipp Allah ( God )
Allah tells us in the quran: NO COMPLUSION IN RELIGION.
Salam ( Peace ).

Thanks for that.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
First of all you should have the right perspective regarding the historical outlining of the "worship" at Mecca , what you are aiming at falls within the polytheistic pre-Qu'ranic practices , and these one were not the first ways in which the Ka'aba in Mecca was used theologically speaking

Again, thanks – I feel like I am beginning to understand Islamic history much more. Prior to this board I really didn’t understand the significance of Abraham and his son Ismail in Islam. Now I see that these two are really one of the cornerstones of the faith. Or so it appears.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
I am happy that you describe your vision as psychological and historically orientated , however I am afraid that the approach to categorize the philosophies/theologies/practices within a religious study , often neglects the details that give difference and identity , as well that it presumes centric religious perspectives , often western .

It is for these reasons that monotheism , polytheism whether through religion or mythology has gotten very generalized definitions , who are at the very least in some instances completely off .

Often when these things are studied , the group of study is a random masse than rather the intellectuals and philosophers of these groups , this encourages the simplicism in the defining of the "religious" practices/thoughts.

So true. Also, historically speaking even ancient “Western” cultures are probably incomprehensible – in a real-world sense(for me I should say). I’m often reminded of a classic anthropological example concerning language and the way we view the world. English describes the world with a language that could be represented as driving along a road a viewing the world as we do through the front window. While the Vietnamese language on the other hand describes the world as viewed through the rear window – after all you know what has occurred (at least I sort of remember it that way – its been awhile). So there are different perspectives. Once while I was at the British museum I read about how the Babylonians described Pi (in cuneiform?). It was a clay circle with a number of dents arranged here and there. I’m still amazed someone could figure out it meant anything – but that it meant pi is amazing! Yeah, I wish I had been raised in the Netherlands or somewhere in which bilingual is just standard. That’s what sucks about the US, there’s no incentive to learn another language. So to that ends I have been studying Japanese – Ooo what a bitch that is. I'll probably never be able read it because of all the damn Kanji blended here and there in every damn sentence - - but maybe I can carry on a simple conversation someday! Oh well – got to start somewhere.

 

[Ghassan Kanafani]

Re: Re: The Moongod

Originally posted by Redoubtable
Like what?

How about consciousness and the advanced development in it ?

Originally posted by Michael
Prior to this board I really didn’t understand the significance of Abraham and his son Ismail in Islam. Now I see that these two are really one of the cornerstones of the faith. Or so it appears.

He is considered forefather of the Muslims in the same way Jews consider him forefather of the Jews . He and his son Ismail are very significant in Islam .

English describes the world with a language that could be represented as driving along a road a viewing the world as we do through the front window. While the Vietnamese language on the other hand describes the world as viewed through the rear window – after all you know what has occurred (at least I sort of remember it that way – its been awhile). So there are different perspectives.

I agree , the culture in which the language evolves has a defining influence on the semantics at hand .

Perhaps you care to participate in the folowing thread , it deals with semantical issues revolving religion etc :

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29917

 

[Proud_Syrian]

Originally posted by Michael
Humans are animals. There is no mistaking that. However, the term "animal" is just one of a million different nomenclature used to categorize living things in our world. It’s not an insult to say humans are animals – it’s just simply a category.

I disagree, Humans are NOT animals...it is like saying: Animals are humans !!

 

[Proud_Syrian]

Originally posted by Redoubtable
Like what?

the ability to write, read, laugh, think, make judgment, feel love...etc

 

[Quantum Quack]

I am not sure whether any one has asked this question but any way,

Do you believe that true belief is possible by controlling peoples thoughts and actions?

Does controlling a persons thoughts and actions lead to true belief?

 

[spidergoat]

How about consciousness and the advanced development in it ?

Can you prove animals are not as concious? They are not as smart as us, but if you have ever had a pet, you might have noticed that they seem very concious. What are they then, unconcious?

As far as the difference between humans and animals, have you ever seen a gorrilla? They can be taught sign language, and they use tools. I think the human mind is great, but it leaves us vulnerable to being fooled by religion. I think religion is like a virus.