Islam denounces terrorism

[Tiassa]

Crunchy Cat - I didn't know you went so low

Crunchy Cat

What do you know? Each day brings a surprise. I really hadn't considered you among that low-thinking crowd. Though some of your positions suffered severe simplicity, I found them geniune and thoughtful nonetheless.

This, however ... this is just freaking disgraceful.

I mean, really ... why can you not simply examine the issues put before you? Must you cast people as villains before you'll give them the time of day?

What's your address? I'll send you the membership kit. Would you prefer HJ or Born-Again Virgins? For style considerations, that's a brown shirt versus vestments of blindingly brilliant ignorance.

As a general address:

Look around, Westerners, at how many excuses we make for Western politics and the ramifications thereof. If we extended a mere tenth of that compassion to issues pertaining to the Islamic world, you would find that the problems are, actually, workable.

Seriously ... start with this one: Violent Islamic radicals do not trust in God. This is why they take matters into their own hands.

And that's been true of the Western cultural heritage, too, since long before Dubya.

:m:,
Tiassa

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Tiassa

puh-leeease. I was baiting (and thanks for killing it). In the
forums I may explore, I may bait, and I may utilize any number of
methods of interaction. I'm sorry if you've gotten too used to
some of them, but to set expectations you will probably strongly
disagree with some.

 

[Tiassa]

Whoops ... well excuuuuuuuuuse me

Sorry. Just thought I'd try speaking the language again.

I guess I just don't know how to speak Gutter. It's not your fault. It's a prevailing theme here among our posters.

:m:,
Tiassa

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Thats a whole new topic in itself. I'll mail you a parachute so you
can jump off that pedestal you climbed on and enjoy the sweet
smell of the sewers once again.

 

[Tiassa]

I believe the phrase is ...

If i'm not mistaken, the phrase that goes here is, "puh-leeease. I was baiting".

I'm happy to return this discussion to its prior participants at this time.

:m:,
Tiassa

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Would have hated to dissapoint you. moo.

 

[skywalker]

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
skywalker

My standards arent equal to Arab standards . I have a negative opinion about Musharaf and many Pakistani would agree with me .


They are in a way same as arab standards. You rather not argue with me about Musharaf since, you do not know what I know.

There are various peoples who have problems with Musharaf for various reasons . His tratorhood would be one for some perspectives yes , others would complain about Kashmiri support , while others would complain over his democratic means . General Musharaf is not loved by everybody , and the reasons dont start with Amerika not do they end there .

They are various people who can have problem with any one. Please provide the alternative of Musharaf and then talk. No one complains about Kashmiri cause. Again you DON't Know anything about Pakistan in way that I do. The issues you mentioned above could be true for any leader of Pakistan. Yes even Zia ul haq.



Bullshit , Musharaf would get regime-change threats , he choose for an instable position in front of his own peoples over a negative position against USA . I mean you are aware of this , you self say

No Bullshit buddy. Please think about the alternative, if he will go away what will happen to Gov. of pakistan? Mostly people who are wishing to rule the country can be compare with monkeys fighting for bananas. You have no idea how good it is to have a military ruler and semi democracy. It is in the best interest of Pakistan. You can't think of any other alternative. He came in power way before US blessing and he handle the country well, and he didn't come into power from his own will. Do you know the history?? how and why it all happened?? I know it because I witnessed it.




How about actuality ? The ravashment of Afghanistan by the USA was not justififed in any way

Why sacrifice Pakistan? I don't see any point. I would not sacrifice Pakistan for Afhganistan. It is not Pakistan's responsiblity to create and protect the Ummah. When fucking OIC tried to add India as a memeber , half the arab world voted yes to that and never ever considered for the moment about Pakistan. I am not going to argue their role in indo pak senario, it is an open book for people. I am sorry if I sound negetive, but I really would like to know the alternative you have offer for Pakistan and Musharaf.




In other words selling out is no issue as long as its national-socialist

I don' think that any country in this world does not look for her national soclialist interests. Name one please. I don't think it is a sell out. It is a very careful reviewed decesion. Best decesion for that time. Again tell me the alternative? This man handle the country better then Any previous PMs or Presidents. So far I still like Zia even thou he wasn't even completely clean but still he worked for Pakistan and real soldier. patriot. and a politician.




Allah does not guide the strings of betrayers .
(Yusuf-52)

And no one has right to call some one betrayer either. Their country men will decide that. Not some one else.




* Amerika did not gave Pakistani any options , it gave Musharaf options .
* He decided whats best to help himself and his regime
* Pakistan ought to be with Syria , Iraq & Iran & the rest of the Ummah .

That is really weird statement. What would you expect from a president of a Pakistan? Leave the presidency and leave the country in a trumoil? or Become sudden axes of Evil and attacked by India, Israel and USA? or stand with SO CALLED Ummah, which so far doesnt' exists or give the country to SO called Mullahs who's standard of religion are measured by the size of beards? Let me remind you more than 75% of pakistanis are Happy with him and the way the country is run. ONLY people not happy are the thugs who are not getting engouh money in their pockets. Thugs of Nawaz Sharief and Thugs of Benazir by the way she will be enjoying some friendly dinners and some kosher entertainment in tel aviv in late august. Since you are not in pakistan and you never lived and don't know the conditions of country and the way it has been ran for last decade and the mode of people who live there and the way they live and problems and hurdles they go through you cann't judge their mode. Only people you have interacted are the only one who live abroad. Even in those majority supports him. Again only religious thugs and older goverment money seekers are complaining and whining about him.


CrunchyCat,

Well, to you ..........nevermind. Not worth talking to you.

 

[Ghassan Kanafani]

skywalker : They are in a way same as arab standards. You rather not argue with me about Musharaf since, you do not know what I know.

* In what way would that be ? What do you consider Arab standards and why would they be mine ?
* Im very happy that you have knowledge I do not have , perhaps you can share it and prove it of any relevance to rather arguing you on Musharaf ?

They are various people who can have problem with any one. Please provide the alternative of Musharaf and then talk. No one complains about Kashmiri cause. Again you DON't Know anything about Pakistan in way that I do. The issues you mentioned above could be true for any leader of Pakistan. Yes even Zia ul haq.

* There is no logic in demanding to provide a better alternative when criticizing something .
* Again great that I dont know anything about Pakistand the way you do , do you care to show how your amazing knowledge would be beyon danything I could ever imagine ?
* Is it relevant for Musharaf that any other Pakistan leader has similar errors ? Does that make Musharaf less errorous ? Does it make him any better ? How does this disprove the critic on him ?

No Bullshit buddy. Please think about the alternative, if he will go away what will happen to Gov. of pakistan? Mostly people who are wishing to rule the country can be compare with monkeys fighting for bananas. You have no idea how good it is to have a military ruler and semi democracy. It is in the best interest of Pakistan. You can't think of any other alternative. He came in power way before US blessing and he handle the country well, and he didn't come into power from his own will. Do you know the history?? how and why it all happened?? I know it because I witnessed it.

Does the fact there is no alternative I can think of disprove Musharafs betrayal ? Does it disprove he didnt represent the peoples ?

Again very nice you have superior knowledge , and very nice you love semi-democracy , but if you cant disprove any of the points other than by stating your superior knowledge and pointing to the lack of my knowledge of an alternative this is rather useless .

Why sacrifice Pakistan? I don't see any point. I would not sacrifice Pakistan for Afhganistan. It is not Pakistan's responsiblity to create and protect the Ummah. When fucking OIC tried to add India as a memeber , half the arab world voted yes to that and never ever considered for the moment about Pakistan. I am not going to argue their role in indo pak senario, it is an open book for people. I am sorry if I sound negetive, but I really would like to know the alternative you have offer for Pakistan and Musharaf.

* I dont have any alternative because I have not enough knowledge on the subject to create one . However I do have enough knowledge to know that Musharaf is a trator .

* Why sacrifice Iraq ? Why sacrifice Afghanistan ? You dont sacrifice you resist . Tell me , how many of Pakistan would choose resistance over the betrayel ?

* Is it now a : Arab didnt help us then , why should we care for them now , game ? Afghanistan isnt Arab . And righteousness in your actions ought not to depend on the unrighteous actions of your brothers .

I don' think that any country in this world does not look for her national soclialist interests. Name one please. I don't think it is a sell out. It is a very careful reviewed decesion. Best decesion for that time. Again tell me the alternative? This man handle the country better then Any previous PMs or Presidents.

Does the fact that peoples do not behave correctly make it ok ? This is what brought the entire Muslim world in shit in the first place , selling out because of national-socialist interests . Best decisions FOR THEM yes , not for others who ought to be considered as brothers . It seems you are living up more to Arab standards than I do . In Arabic we have a name for national-socialistic interests its called Kuweit .

And are you on repeat or something ? I am not running opposition in Pakistan why are you asking me fro an alternative a thousand times ?

And no one has right to call some one betrayer either. Their country men will decide that. Not some one else.

1) A countryman has right to call him a betrayer in the context of the betrayement of his country . Just like many others , Musharaf betrayed the Ummah .

2) So would his countrymen call him a betrayer ? Tell me

That is really weird statement. What would you expect from a president of a Pakistan? Leave the presidency and leave the country in a trumoil? or Become sudden axes of Evil and attacked by India, Israel and USA? or stand with SO CALLED Ummah, which so far doesnt' exists or give the country to SO called Mullahs who's standard of religion are measured by the size of beards? Let me remind you more than 75% of pakistanis are Happy with him and the way the country is run.

1) If the Ummah does not exist neither do you .
2) 75% would have chosen to ally with USA ?

Do you honestly believe this axis of evill bullshit ? There was a hostile consideration of nations before and after 9-11 , Pakistan was in them both . Just because USA has USED you for their Afghani games doesnt mean they consider you their friends .

ONLY people not happy are the thugs who are not getting engouh money in their pockets.

Witch would be 25% ? Dont give me this crap man you cant demonize the opposition , you cant lable Musharaf-protestors as thugs your credibility to make unbias and non-emotional statements has gone below zero at this moment .

Thugs of Nawaz Sharief and Thugs of Benazir by the way she will be enjoying some friendly dinners and some kosher entertainment in tel aviv in late august. Since you are not in pakistan and you never lived and don't know the conditions of country and the way it has been ran for last decade and the mode of people who live there and the way they live and problems and hurdles they go through you cann't judge their mode. Only people you have interacted are the only one who live abroad. Even in those majority supports him. Again only religious thugs and older goverment money seekers are complaining and whining about him.

Thugs with a capital even ........ Anyways , I dont really get your point on TelAviv and Im not judging anyones mode . I judged Musharafs mode .

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Scooby Doo

Exactly. It's too bad I did not have the opportunity to elicit
an emotional response from the 'Proud Syrian'. It would have had
alot of potential to explore some interesting Muslim phenomena.
Unfortunately, the wrong person had a cow and the original
intent was negated.

The thread in general turned into a comical finger-pointing
session about who knows more about who drew first blood. It's
just plain silly. Any and every species fights. One side always
starts and it does not really matter which side it was because
its guranteed that one side WOULD have started anyway.

People can lay all the complexity they want on top of their
genetically encoded behaviors (Jihad's, God, society, etc.) but
most of their 'woes' are a result these biological programs made
with amino acids.

 

[Pakman]

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
Does the fact there is no alternative I can think of disprove Musharafs betrayal ? Does it disprove he didnt represent the peoples ?

I'm gonna give you Palestine as an example. If the Prime Minister represented the people of Palestine, then suicide bombings would be encouraged. Sometimes the people are wrong and the leader is right. Mahmoud Abbas is one of them. He does not tolerate suicide bombings and is looking for a peaceful solution. However, it is the Israelis who are messing up now. Building a wall, passing the racial purity law, etc.

* I dont have any alternative because I have not enough knowledge on the subject to create one . However I do have enough knowledge to know that Musharaf is a trator .

From your perspective, can you tell me why you find Mushreff a traitor?

* Why sacrifice Iraq ? Why sacrifice Afghanistan ? You dont sacrifice you resist . Tell me , how many of Pakistan would choose resistance over the betrayel ?

It is the actions of current Muslims and the US which have resulted in the separation of Muslim countries. Do you think we like watching other Muslims getting killed? I sure don't. Pakistani's don't. But what can we do? If we resist, we will be removed from the picture. Thus, we have to pray for a greater power to help us.

2) 75% would have chosen to ally with USA ?

Yes, sometimes you must ally with the enemy to save yourself. Would you like to see another country destroyed? Iraq and Afghanistan have been attacked. Syria and Iran are on the list. Would you like to see Pakistan added to the list too?

Do you honestly believe this axis of evill bullshit ? There was a hostile consideration of nations before and after 9-11 , Pakistan was in them both . Just because USA has USED you for their Afghani games doesnt mean they consider you their friends .

I don't recall skywalker saying he thought of USA as a friend. USA will do whatever makes it benefit. If Pakistan does anything the USA doesn't want them too, USA will become "enemies" with them. Iraq is a example. Pakistan is aware USA is not a true ally, but it must do what it can to save itself.[/QUOTE]

 

[Pakman]

Re: Re: Proud Syrian

Originally posted by Scooby Doo
CC is quite correct:

--------------
You may strike terror into the enemies of God and the faithful, and others besides them. I shall cast terror into the hearts of infidels. Strike off their heads, maim them in every limb. Make war on them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. Those that make war against God and His apostle and spread disorders in the land shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the country.


- The Qu'ran
----------------

P.S. Guess what country is one of the "enemies of God" in the eyes of most Muslim countries?

No, that is a false assumption. These are the quotes that the Islamic radicals believe in. They believe in one part of the Quran and not the other. To believe in one part and not the other does not make you a Muslim. Plus, it says to attack those when they attack you first.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Scoob

Actually, any 'belief' other than Muslim is considered an 'attack'
according to the Qu'ran. I do recall something about a person
being able to stave off retaliation for their 'attack' if they pay
enough cash.

 

[Pakman]

Originally posted by Scooby Doo
And, what, may I ask is a valid definition of "when they attack you first"?

The concept of war should always be avoided. You should try to reach a peaceful solution from dipolamatic means. You are not suppose to go to war, but if the other nation declares war on you and they are not willing to stop, then you can go to war to protect yourself.

Take the Holocaust. Hitler did a war on the Jews. If it was Muslims, then they first try to find a peaceful solotion. If Hitler didn't stop and went to war, then they would fight back.

Don't believe anything about Islam from what they show on TV. They only show the "terrorism" side and how Islam announces fighting and violence and so. It is a religion of peace. They only show stuff about the "fake" Islam. Never once do they show what Muslims are doing to stop terrorism, the actions of Muslim charitable organizations, etc.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Scoob

Yeppers. Sorry to say it is.

 

[Flores]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Proud Syrian

Originally posted by Scooby Doo
Can believing in Jesus as the Messiah and Son Of God, and completely discounting Muhammed as a false prophet be considered an attack?

The Quran clearly instructs Prophet Muhammed on how to deal with unbelievers during the time of no war. Here is the Sura below. Sura 9 which have the kill the unbelievers stuff was intended for a special war that the muslims were completely opressed in and killed for just believing in god, they were instructed to kill back the unbelievers.

The Disbelievers
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[109.1] Say: O unbelievers!
[109.2] I do not serve that which you serve,
[109.3] Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.4] Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
[109.5] Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

I tell you the same thing, noone serve what you serve and you don't serve what any other person serve. Religion is private and between you and god and to each is their own religion and the judgement will be only for god on whoes right an who is wrong.

 

[Ghassan Kanafani]

Pakman

I'm gonna give you Palestine as an example. If the Prime Minister represented the people of Palestine, then suicide bombings would be encouraged. Sometimes the people are wrong and the leader is right. Mahmoud Abbas is one of them. He does not tolerate suicide bombings and is looking for a peaceful solution. However, it is the Israelis who are messing up now. Building a wall, passing the racial purity law, etc.

* If we can manage to not kill ourselves while comitting assaults and we can manage to leave children out of it I see no moral or strategical objection whatsoever in Palestinian assaults on zionist targets . I think as Palestinians are very moderate in their religious convictions and they surely would understand that children are the innocent ones , we can get an agreement on it . When so , your assertion is not valid .

* However I understand the point you made that the peoples are not always right (just used a very bad example) and I know the peoples are usually wrong . But when it comes to fundamental questions , do they not have the right to self-determine their wrong-ness and act on it ?

From your perspective, can you tell me why you find Mushreff a traitor?

Selling out Afghanistan to Amerika would be a big point .

It is the actions of current Muslims and the US which have resulted in the separation of Muslim countries. Do you think we like watching other Muslims getting killed? I sure don't. Pakistani's don't. But what can we do? If we resist, we will be removed from the picture. Thus, we have to pray for a greater power to help us.

Praying is what got the Jews gassed remember that . I am very well aware the seperation of Muslim countries is result of Imperial mapmaking , current Muslims have little in say for that their leaders from the beginning of this century have together with the Brits & French and other Western countries sticking their nose where they smell $ .

Choosing for your own land and community to be saved from the fate other Muslim nations (without guilt) receive , is IMO doing exactly what Imperial forces desire to do , remain seperated and act out of self-interest that ofetnly can easy be combined with Imperial interests . That is why we can have psycho dictators because they ally with the powers , that why we can have disgusting less than a million peoples oil-states because they choose self-interest and ally with the powers . That path eventually leads to destruction of the entire Ummah , this includes that little local piece you were trying to save for yourself .

If you wish to be an ethical egoist that is fine , but be aware that on the long term for ethical egoistic motives such an approach ends up where u dont want it , having bad results for yourself .

Yes, sometimes you must ally with the enemy to save yourself. Would you like to see another country destroyed? Iraq and Afghanistan have been attacked. Syria and Iran are on the list. Would you like to see Pakistan added to the list too?

I have family who is on that to-be shock & awed list as they are in Syria , the question is does one chooses for himself or does one choose for the entire peoples of the Ummah . Eventually Pakistan will be added anyways , is it merely hope you would base your egoism on ? Chose for yourself and eventually you will not only have sold out your peoples , but yourself as well .

I don't recall skywalker saying he thought of USA as a friend. USA will do whatever makes it benefit. If Pakistan does anything the USA doesn't want them too, USA will become "enemies" with them. Iraq is a example. Pakistan is aware USA is not a true ally, but it must do what it can to save itself

Again the same issue .

Plus, it says to attack those when they attack you first.

The offense defence situation is such a theoretical one that you can use for all directions . You can look at the direct momentary situation of offense & defence , however if you take the wider context you will see that reality may be different . And if you step beyond that you can find yourself judging offense and defence from historical perspective . Avoiding these 2 extremes is best IMO , and in that sense you will not find many Mujahiddeen who fight out of anything else than defence .

 

[Ren]

Originally posted by Pakman
Proud_Syrian, thank you for the link.

1. BloodSuckingGerbile, I can see where you are coming from. However, 9-11 should not be equated with Islam.

2. You say that the Muslim countries should stay to themselves. Well, they try too. The reason for hatred against America is that Americans are there and they don't want them on their soil. If America was to stay to itself and not on their land, I'm sure a lot of this wouldn't have happened.

1. And why is that? It was clearly religiously motivated.
Ask any muslim why they allways have to blow shit up and they give you a long lecture about how evil the west is, about the crusades and the US nukeing Japan in ww2 as this in some way gives you the rigth to kill civilians.
Given a clear chance to denounce terrorism 99% of muslims chose to justify it.

2. Here in Norway where i come there are a lot of muslim imigrants. If we where to hate them for being here,.. well that would make us rasists rigth?
Theres just now pleasing muslims if you dont do some thing they hate you and blow you up and if you try to do something they hate you and blow you up.
Islam has the mentalety of a 5 year old and if it's ever going to gain my respect it needs to grow up.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Ren
Islam has the mentalety of a 5 year old

This is new. So Islam....a word, that means submit to god, now have the mentality of a 5 year old, and what does that make you....The monkey's uncle, Sure, you obviously is the perfect candidate to analyze the mentality of this 5 year old Islam, because you happen to be one.

Originally posted by Ren
and if it's ever going to gain my respect it needs to grow up.

I would guess that your understanding and respect of music, literature, and science is also awaiting to be explained and spoon fed to you by some cheap gossip article. Keep waiting, and please hold your breath...You have no understanding, you lack prespective, you stereotype, and prefer to dig in the trash for information.

 

[Ren]

Digging in the trash for information?
I base my argumets on what i hear "you people say"
Thats digging in the trash?...

come to think of it YES it is.

 

[Judas]

Originally posted by Flores
You have no understanding, you lack prespective, you stereotype, and prefer to dig in the trash for information.

you represent "your people" well.