Islam, and the Problems it Causes, by the Cults of Personality.

[John99]

As I was reading this thread i put myself as a judge and wanted some reality .
There is a barrage of attacks on Islam and Muslims as if this universe has only Islam and Muslims .

That is because the Muslims keep making threads about Islam and Muslims. Personally i could care less about it and dont read any of the links that sneak in. Dont throw the rock and hide your hand.

 

[nirakar]

That is because the Muslims keep making threads about Islam and Muslims. Personally i could care less about it and dont read any of the links that sneak in. Dont throw the rock and hide your hand.

What I have seen is the anti-Muslims continually making threads about Muslims. The closest thing to a balance for the anti-Muslim threads that I have seen is the anti-Israel threads and the anti-US foreign policy threads.

Is all this anti-Muslim stuff really a warning about Muslim misbehavior or are these anti-Muslim threads examples of Christians and Jews being like the Muslim extremists that they criticize?

I think it is the latter.

 

[Ghost_007]

Islam as far as I can see, has a problem with the world because it has become a cult tied to the Personalities of the Various leaders who practice this religion.

Wth?!?!?! That simply does not make sense.

'Islam' cannot have a problem with the World. Islam is a religion practiced by a billion people spread over continents, spread over over various different cultures and languages.

Each part of Islam is associated with a different, Caliph,

That doesn't make sense.

Each and every Caliph, (based on the notion of a successor to the Islamic prophet Muhammad's authority.) has placed his own mark on Islam, and in doing so, today there is a fight as to who is the right full Caliph of Islam.

Another ignorant statement. Caliphs have not left their mark on Islam. And today, there is no fight to determine who is the Caliph - that is a lie.

Osama Bin Laden leads a cult of personality under his ideas of advancing the World Caliphate under the Sharia and Quran.

Mullah Omar's established his Idea of Islam based on his own interpertation of the Quran and Sharia.

The Ahyotollia Khomeni, in Iran, change Iran to suit his thought on Islam and its tenets.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, India, who claimed to be the promised Messiah and Mahdi, the one awaited by followers of all major religions, who bent Islam to his own purpose. After his demise in 1908, his first successor Noor-ud-Din became head of the community and assumed the title of Khalifatul Masih (Caliph of the Messiah). The line of successors continues to this day, the current head being Mirza Masroor Ahmad, residing in London. From the outset the Ahmadiyya community has been viewed as heretical by other Muslim groups due to the founder's claim to prophethood. Muslims hold the view that Muhammad was the final rasul (prophet) and no apostle can come after him. Ahmadis however argue the possibility and need of subordinate prophethood to Muhammad. Ahmadis call themself Muslims and claim to practice Islam in its pristine form

The Ahmadiyya caliphate is not recognised by mainstream Islam, Sunni and Shia.

So what is Islam that so many have made it a cult to their personality?

Since when have these people had any say over the affairs of people out of their country? or their own followers? Leaders will take titles that have no relevance to anyone apart from their own people, or followers as well as someone called Buffalo Roam. Has any Muslim leader declared himself to be leader of a Caliphate? President Musharaf? Prince Abdullah? Ahmadinejad? Ghaddafi?

If any leader of a Muslim nation has, has it actually meant anything? has it caused anything significant to happen?

Have they left their mark on Islam?

Again Buffs, you are pissing into the wind.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

What do you think of the US practice of kidnapping people in foreign countries and sending them to Gitmo? Do you have an opinion on it? I want to get the rational opinion of an atheist.

If any atheist will do, I think it's outrageous. I'm enough of a pragmatist and a situational ethicist to understand that in exceptional circumstances people make the best decisions they can and hope that history proves them wise. But if you make a practice of violating the basic rules of human dignity and national sovereignty, then you're an asshole. I was able to forgive my people for electing an asshole the first time but I'm ashamed of them for re-electing him. I'm hoping that I won't get so disgusted with America that I'll have to emigrate for the sake of my conscience. I'm too old for that.

For facts : The Muslims suffered centuries of colon-ism on the hands of the most brutal Christians and Jews

Huh??? What kind of "fact" is that? Out of Islam's 1400-year history, Muslims were the colonists for the first 1300 years: the Ottomans, Moors and Mughals. The Christian nations only started building colonial empires 500 years ago, and those empires didn't extend into the stronghold of Islam until the downfall of the Ottoman Empire in the 20th century. That's when the British started carving up Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

As for colonialism (I assume you don't mean "colonism" because that would have something to do with your intestine) at the hands of the Jews, I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. There haven't been Jewish colonies since biblical times. The modern state of Israel sprang up on top of Palestine, but we can't blame the Jews for that since the Jewish refugees needed somewhere to go, the Chrisitian Europeans would not take them back, and the Christian British decided to give them Palestine because they didn't think anybody important was living there. The whole Israel-Palestine conflict is the last gift to the world from the "magnificent" fucking British Empire.

The Muslim countries and not the Christians and not the Jewish countries that are being made colonies by Christians and Jews such as : Iraq , Afghanistan and Palestine . So who the hell is kidding whom here ?. Let us be adults and see reality as it is . America , NATO , and Israel are the most brutal regimes on earth and their shocking history is a witness on this fact .

Your sense of history is amazingly short. I thought it was we Americans who have no sense of the vast scope of history but I see there are other people with the same problem. Please do some reading and learn what the Muslim armies of Caliph Omar did to the ancient civilization of Egypt, how Muslim traders were supplying the slave trade to the New World from the African side, and how in the final days of the Ottoman Empire the Turks indiscriminately slaughtered Christians in their eastern provinces. (Although to be fair the politically correct notion that it was focused on Armenians is incorrect.) Or how current events within the Islamic community are no more civilized and peaceful than they were within the Christian community 600 years ago, with Sunnis and Shiites killing each other, and Arab Muslims, Persian Muslims and African Muslims not exactly acting like brethren.

What I have seen is the anti-Muslims continually making threads about Muslims. The closest thing to a balance for the anti-Muslim threads that I have seen is the anti-Israel threads and the anti-US foreign policy threads. Is all this anti-Muslim stuff really a warning about Muslim misbehavior or are these anti-Muslim threads examples of Christians and Jews being like the Muslim extremists that they criticize? I think it is the latter.

I suspect that most of it is coming from Americans. Until thirty years ago we had virtually no knowledge and no opinion of Islam and Muslims. In fact Arabs and Persians were regarded as mysterious, charming strangers. Despite America's generally favorable attitude toward Israel our people didn't even hold much of a grudge against the Muslim countries that warred with Israel several times, since we figured that was just a microcosm of the Cold War and the machinations of Moscow and Washington using the Mideast as their own private chessboard. But that all started to change with the Iranian hostage crisis in 1979. Hearing people call us "the great Satan" and chanting "death to America" didn't give us charitable feelings about the people who had taken over our embassy, violating one of the most fundamental international laws.

Then 9/11 blew it completely. Americans today hate Islam and have no respect for Muslims. Remember that our people have no understanding of geography or history. They don't know that the four largest Muslim countries are Indonesia, Pakistan, Nigeria and Bangladesh. They don't know that the Iranians aren't Arabs and they don't know that the Arabs make up a small minority of Muslims. They don't know what Sunni and Shia mean.

Of course our current president (oh did I forget to mention that he's an asshole?) is exacerbating this because his family had a personal feud with Saddam Hussein and now he has to make it look like he was right about invading Iraq. The reality is that in the past seven years 3,000 Americans have been killed by terrorists whereas 140,000 Americans have been killed by drunk drivers, and we're fighting the wrong "war."

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Wth?!?!?! That simply does not make sense.

'Islam' cannot have a problem with the World. Islam is a religion practiced by a billion people spread over continents, spread over over various different cultures and languages.

Really then why all the Jihads in the name of Allah and the Quran?

That doesn't make sense.

You are right it doesn't make sense that Sunni murders Shia, and Shia murders Sunni, and they both murder Bahi.

Another ignorant statement. Caliphs have not left their mark on Islam. And today, there is no fight to determine who is the Caliph - that is a lie.

Now prove so.

Every ruler, Caliph, place his own stamp on Islam, as a human they can do nothing else, it is the Human condition.

Then why do Sunni Murder Shia and Shia Murder Sunni, and they Both Murder Bahi?

Since when have these people had any say over the affairs of people out of their country? or their own followers? Leaders will take titles that have no relevance to anyone apart from their own people, or followers as well as someone called Buffalo Roam. Has any Muslim leader declared himself to be leader of a Caliphate? President Musharaf? Prince Abdullah? Ahmadinejad? Ghaddafi?

Since Jihad.

Al Qaeda thrived in Afghanistan when the Taliban leader, Mohammad Omar, was called "Commander of the Faithful," a caliphic title. In his book published online shortly after Sept. 11, bin Laden's deputy, Ayman Zawahiri, declared that terror attacks would "be nothing more than disturbing acts, regardless of their magnitude" unless they led to a caliphate in the "heart of the Islamic world."

Hizb ut-Tahrir, an organization founded in 1953 with what he calls "a bookish set of beliefs describing its utopian vision for a future caliphate," which will be revived "after national governments are subverted by Hizb ut-Tahrir members working in their highest levels." Vicks notes that Hizb ut-Tahrir members have been charged with planning to carry out coups d'état in Jordan and Egypt. The group also has a following in the West. If membership is up—and an imam in Copenhagen, Fatih Alev, and others say they keep seeing new faces—Hizb ut-Tahrir organizers say it is because more Muslims see events unfolding as the groups predicted.

If any leader of a Muslim nation has, has it actually meant anything? has it caused anything significant to happen?

Have they left their mark on Islam?

Again Buffs, you are pissing into the wind.

Osama Bin Laden has left his mark, he has caused a significant war.

What would the caliph do? [Against mis-Islamic terror] - Tur...
Some people tend to name this threat as “Islamic terrorism,” but I have a ... stated goals of Bin Ladin and his likeminded is to re-establish the Caliphate, ...

www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=... - 48k

Mustafa Akyol

The recent terrorist plots in London and Glasgow have once again shown that violence in the name of Islam continues to be a lethal threat. Some people tend to name this threat as “Islamic terrorism,” but I have a slightly different suggestion: let's call it “mis-Islamic terrorism,” because those who perpetrate it are actually acting against the principles and tradition of mainstream Islam.

One point that is striking in that regard is the yearning that Al Qaeda and other mis-Islamic groups have for the Caliphate, the political leadership of worldwide Islam embodied first in the successors of Prophet Mohammed and most recently in the four-century rule of the Ottoman dynasty. One of the stated goals of Bin Ladin and his likeminded is to re-establish the Caliphate, but if the Caliphs were around, their ways would be quite different.

Enter Sultan Abdülhamid II:

One way to appreciate this is to revisit the 33-year reign of the most remarkable modern caliph, Sultan Abdülhamid II (1876-1909). An ally neither of bigoted Islamists nor of the radical secularists who ultimately deposed him, Abdülhamid was an Islamic modernizer — and, interestingly, a friend of the United States.

 

[Ghost_007]

Really then why all the Jihads in the name of Allah and the Quran?

What the hell are you talking about?

I'm not going to answer stupid, vague, nonsensical questions, questions that show you have no understanding of Jihad and questions that have nothing to do with this thread.

If someone asked me that question in real life I'd burst out laughing in their face because its so bloody stupid and funny - lol.

You are right it doesn't make sense that Sunni murders Shia, and Shia murders Sunni, and they both murder Bahi.

Not worthy of a response.

Every ruler, Caliph, place his own stamp on Islam, as a human they can do nothing else, it is the Human condition.

What does that mean? place his own stamp on Islam? You say something, provide no real examples and then want me to prove you wrong?...

Osama Bin Laden has left his mark, he has caused a significant war.

Osama Bin Laden is insignificant. I don't believe he has ever stated he is the leader of the Ummah, even if he were to do such a thing he would be rejected, actually rejection would mean he would have to be taken seriously in the first place and that is simply not the case - he would be ignored and his message would fall on deaf ears. How many Muslims have joined Osama Bin Ladens Jihad? Percentage wise?

Significant war? The Yanks already had massive plans for the Mid-East and wider regions - Afghanistan, then Iraq, then Iran, then Pakistan, then Saudi Arabia etc. Not taking into account their meddling before 9/11.

What would the caliph do? [Against mis-Islamic terror] - Tur...
Some people tend to name this threat as “Islamic terrorism,” but I have a ... stated goals of Bin Ladin and his likeminded is to re-establish the Caliphate, ...

www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=... - 48k

If you knew any Muslims or knew anything about Muslim nations you would know Osama Bin Laden is a minor player and holds no real significance to Muslims. He is not a religious figure, a leader or anything like that - and as far as I know he has never made any claims.

Don't expect me to waste another response on you - you don't know what you're talking about and don't know how to carry a debate.