Islam and Suicide Bombers

[S.A.M.]

Perhaps we can agree that Islam in this context is a culture, not just words on a page.

These bombers are not just killing themselves, but attacking a percieved enemy, so the situation is more complex. There is certainly room for jihad and martyrdom in Islam.

I fail to see what the problem is here.

Do you mean to say that the fact that

the Palestinians have been refugees for 58 years,

that they have been dislocated from their lands and houses to which they have no right of return and for which they did not receive compensaton,

that they have regular altercations with the IDF (which if Lebanon is anything to go by, are not a minor consideration),

that their houses and orchards are bulldozed on a regular basis,

that their children are picked up and imprisoned by the IDF,

that so many have lost family members or been injured or imprisoned,

that there are instances of abuse and gunfire strafing towards them

that there are constant attacks on infrastructure like hospitals, police stations, sewage, electric, water

that there is systematic starvation of refugees by control of the amount of food let in

that planes fly overhead bombing them or using sonic booms to instill terror

that they are unemployed and unable to feed themselves and their families

ARE ALL INCONSEQUENTIAL?!!!
http://www.iraqwar.org/peacegroups.htm

That the reason they blow themselves up is because they are religious and want to be martyrs!

Frankly, I'm speechless.

 

[spidergoat]

the Palestinians have been refugees for 58 years

And maintained in this status deliberately by the UN and Islamic organizations. How long were there refugees from the partition of British India into Pakistan and India?

that they have been dislocated from their lands and houses to which they have no right of return and for which they did not receive compensaton,

And advised to leave Israel in 1948 by other Arab leaders, NOT the Jews. Arabs who stayed in Israel are now citizens.

that they have regular altercations with the IDF (which if Lebanon is anything to go by, are not a minor consideration),

Who's fault is that when their culture turns Jews into devils?

that there are constant attacks on infrastructure like hospitals, police stations, sewage, electric, water

Mostly lies and propaganda, although these places have been used as bases of operations for militants, who obey no rules of war whatsoever.
http://www.pierrerehov.com/jenin.htm
http://www.pierrerehov.com/hostages.htm

I'm suggesting that these poor arabs have been used by arab organizations for propaganda purposes, their goal being to destroy Israel and the Jews. The means have been the exploitation of an ancient religion. It's sad, really, considering that Jews and Arabs have together been an integral part of many distinctive Middle Eastern cultures.

Frankly, I'm speechless.

You should be. Sometimes it is difficult to see through the propaganda.

 

[S.A.M.]

And maintained in this status deliberately by the UN and Islamic organizations. How long were there refugees from the partition of British India into Pakistan and India?

There were two states and a border.

And advised to leave Israel in 1948 by other Arab leaders, NOT the Jews.

I did not know this. Why?

Who's fault is that when their culture turns Jews into devils?

Again, why? Are there not Jews in Morocco?

Mostly lies and propaganda, although these places have been used as bases of operations for militants, who obey no rules of war whatsoever.
http://www.pierrerehov.com/jenin.htm
http://www.pierrerehov.com/hostages.htm

That is the excuse every time, but it is not all propoganda.

http://www.icahd.org/eng/
This is an Israeli Jewish group that reports on the demolitions.

I'm suggesting that these poor arabs have been used by arab organizations for propaganda purposes, their goal being to destroy Israel and the Jews. The means have been the exploitation of an ancient religion. It's sad, really, considering that Jews and Arabs have together been an integral part of many distinctive Middle Eastern cultures.

That may be true for many of them who are victims of Hamas, but if we are talking about suicide bombers, remember they are educated frustrated young men who have had prior violent interactions with the IDF and have lost family members. They do not fit the "victim" profile.

You should be. Sometimes it is difficult to see through the propaganda.

Which is why I used exclusively an Israeli Jewish source.

 

[spidergoat]

There were two states and a border.

UN partition created two states which the Arabs did not accept.

I did not know this. Why?

So they could be maintained as perpetual victims in a ploy to destroy Israel.

Again, why? Are there not Jews in Morocco?

Why does anyone need a scapegoat? To concentrate power in the hands of a few, and rob it from the general population.

They do not fit the "victim" profile.

Perhaps they just needed to get laid.

 

[S.A.M.]

Islamic jurists on suicide bombing:

According to Islamic jurist and scholar Khaled Abou Al-Fadl,

The classical jurists, nearly without exception, argued that those who attack by stealth, while targeting noncombatants in order to terrorize the resident and wayfarer, are corrupters of the earth. "Resident and wayfarer" was a legal expression that meant that whether the attackers terrorize people in their urban centers or terrorize travelers, the result was the same: all such attacks constitute a corruption of the earth. The legal term given to people who act this way was muharibun (those who wage war against society), and the crime is called the crime of hiraba (waging war against society). The crime of hiraba was so serious and repugnant that, according to Islamic law, those guilty of this crime were considered enemies of humankind and were not to be given quarter or sanctuary anywhere. ... Those who are familiar with the classical tradition will find the parallels between what were described as crimes of hiraba and what is often called terrorism today nothing short of remarkable. The classical jurists considered crimes such as assassinations, setting fires, or poisoning water wells - that could indiscriminately kill the innocent - as offenses of hiraba. Furthermore, hijacking methods of transportation or crucifying people in order to spread fear and terror are also crimes of hiraba. Importantly, Islamic law strictly prohibited the taking of hostages, the mutilation of corpses, and torture.[17] wikipedia

 

[S.A.M.]

spidergoat:

I wish some sensible guy like you was in charge there.

I just wish they'd stop killing each other, over a piece of land, for God's sake.

Even God has said that if there is no peace in your land, just move.

 

[spidergoat]

That is the moderate interpretation, extremists make exceptions for self-martyrdom.

 

[S.A.M.]

I doubt they kill themselves, just find desperate patsies to do it for them.

 

[Sock puppet path]

But few other cultures face economic deprivation in this way. From what I have heard, religion is an inseparable part of the suicide bombers rationale. Isn't this: "Fourth, almost all suicide bombers are unmarried and male" significant?

Islam like the old polytheist beliefs here in Norway promises a better more exciting life to those who die "fighting for the cause" especially men.

 

[S.A.M.]

Islam like the old polytheist beliefs here in Norway promises a better more exciting life to those who die "fighting for the cause" especially men.

Do you have a link for this? There is nothing in the Quran. I'd like to know the source.

 

[Michael]

I wager that all sexually repressed cultures tend to be more warlike and death-oriented.

Amish? Quakers? Baptist?

 

[Michael]

I wager that all sexually repressed cultures tend to be more warlike and death-oriented.

Tibetians?

 

[Michael]

So they could be maintained as perpetual victims in a ploy to destroy Israel.

Did you know some Europeans, that happen to be Jewish, live in the actual homes of Palastians who are presently living in a Refugee camp.

I don't know about you, but that's piss me off!

 

[Michael]

Islam like the old polytheist beliefs here in Norway promises a better more exciting life to those who die "fighting for the cause" especially men.

Maybe the Houri are actually "white raisins"?



I wonder, when the Dali Lama dies, if the young Tibetans begin suicide bombs on the infrastructure of China – will people then say “Tibetan Buddhism causes people to become suicide bombers!” Just look at how those Tibetan Buddhists prohibit homosexuality. I mean even that Terrorist the Dali Lama said as such ……. [that's true too]



just a diferrent point of view,
MII

 

[S.A.M.]

Fascinating interview here with Pierre Rehov talking about a documentary on Palestinian suicide bombers, describing the neurosis that Islam creates.

I came to the conclusion that we are facing a neurosis at the level of an entire civilization. Most neuroses have in common a dramatic event, generally linked to an unacceptable sexual behavior.. In this case, we are talking of kids living all their lives in pure frustration, with no opportunity to experience sex, love, tenderness or even understanding from the opposite sex. The separation between men and women in Islam is absolute. So is contempt toward women, who are totally dominated by men. This leads to a situation of pure anxiety, in which normal behavior is not possible.

Is this true?
What are the implications for the future of Islam?
Is the root cause of terrorism an ideology, or a response to US foriegn policy, or some of both?

Personally, I respect the rights of people to practice their religion, and I recognize that there are billions of moderate Muslims in the world who do not commit violence in the name of their religion, but I think this filmmaker makes an important point.

Sufi Islam is also pretty cool.

Btw, spidergoat. Pierre Rehov is a nom de guerre. Who is he really?

 

[spidergoat]

Did you know some Europeans, that happen to be Jewish, live in the actual homes of Palastians who are presently living in a Refugee camp.

I don't know about you, but that's piss me off!

So you believe that people still live in makeshift camps after almost 50 years? I believe they are kept there for propaganda purposes, and indeed, many tents they ostensibly live in are deserted. They only show up for photo ops.

 

[slotty]

Islam and suicide bombers- what do the female bombers get for blowing themselves up? do they get 72 male virgins?

 

[Michael]

So you believe that people still live in makeshift camps after almost 50 years? I believe they are kept there for propaganda purposes, and indeed, many tents they ostensibly live in are deserted. They only show up for photo ops.

Well that's besides the point.
Some European families moved into other peoples actual homes. Those people were forced out and now live elsewhere (whether it be a camp or a 5 star hotel is besides the point). What right do some Europeans have in forcing someone else out of their home? And then moving right into it?!?!? The gall!
The people that lost their homes should be given their homes back to them.
Wouldn't you agree?
Of course that doesn’t apply to newly built homes - unless they are built on someone’s plot of land.
Surely that’s only fair?

 

[Ghost_007]

Professor Robert Pape who is a professor of Political Science at University of Chicago has conducted a massive research project studying the motives of all suicide bombs since 1980. His study shown that 95% of suicide bombs were not in the name of religion but other motives such as occupation.

Some links:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1838199,00.html

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/06/30/schuster.column/index.html

Listen to an interview:

http://realserver.bu.edu:8080/ramgen/w/b/wbur/herenow/2005/06/hn_0608.rm?start=07:21

 

[spidergoat]

Well that's besides the point.
Some European families moved into other peoples actual homes. Those people were forced out and now live elsewhere (whether it be a camp or a 5 star hotel is besides the point). What right do some Europeans have in forcing someone else out of their home? And then moving right into it?!?!? The gall!
The people that lost their homes should be given their homes back to them.
Wouldn't you agree?
Of course that doesn’t apply to newly built homes - unless they are built on someone’s plot of land.
Surely that’s only fair?

What makes you think they were forced?