Islam: A Defective Civilization?

Tiassa

But time isn't finished. Furthermore, I would go so far as to assert that the events filling the passing of time present different conditions and challenges to the Islamic world than the Christian.

Agreed. I would assert; however, that the Islamic world lacks the flexability to overcome many challanges that others
can.

However, the momentary illusion of happiness ... I actually agree with you there. But doesn't that point to a human problem and not an Islam-specific problem?

It does point to a human problem, but I think that Islamic inflexibility reduced itself to not being able to grow beyond
basic human problems.

Actually it was because he was a better deal than the American-sponsored Shah. Any port in a storm, perhaps. Also a human issue.

Don't you wish we could get into the heads a mass of people and extract their thoughts? It would make interpretation
so much easier.

The same reasons as anyone else, then?

Yes and at a more 'primal' level.


It's that big ol' wall of inflexibility I mentioned. It's not an adaptation promoter.

True, but ineffective as an argumentative point this time out.

I see a minority in the Islamic environment as being supressed rather than being given freedom to explore
it's potential. This seems relevant to me.

Thanks,

-CC
 
  • "1. Politics: Few Muslim nations are real democracies"
No nation is a true democracy! Democracy is a farce!!
  • "3. Society: ...the status of women."
What about the status of women??
  • "4. Culture: The culture of the Muslim world is not admired by outsiders, either in its high or popular versions. Foreign students do not flock to its universities. Its ideals do not resonate for others. No-one dreams of being like them."
:mad: They have a love for something other than themselves!!
  • "One of the most unattractive things about Islam from the point of view of a non-Muslim observer is its combination of arrogance"
:eek: OMG! A religious nation, more arrogant than America??!
  • "Islam...seems to consider itself entitled to rule the world and is alternately puzzled and enraged that this is not happening."
I don't beleive it is like this!! It's because the rest of the world (particularly the west) refuse to accept God's kingdom!
  • "And of course they ignore the fact that the Muslim world invaded and conquered Europe (at various points Spain, Sicily, the Balkans, Hungary) centuries before the West had laid a hand on them. Furthermore, in terms of their supposed grievance against Christianity, it is conveniently forgotten that Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, and Constantinople were once Christian areas, which fell to Muslim conquest. This is the mentality of the bully-wimp, of the fascist crybaby."
This is quite interesting, despite the fact it is just fact thrown in the middle of a load of bullshit.
  • "why is Islam an obvious correlate, if not a cause, of backwardness today when in the Middle Ages Islamic civilization was one of the most advanced in the world?"
I would say societies that advance so quickly must be advancing from something, namely something is spuring citizens on. Fear?
  • "Its other problem is that by making statutory law a direct dictate from God, it allows no philosophical, as well as practical, room for a secular state"
Is there any real need for a secular state??
  • "For example, its conception of paradise with the 70 virgins, et cetera, is, to be quite blunt, repulsively crude and I do not think this is just a Western bias."
Maybe it's just me, but does anyone else not find the thought of seventy virgins, crude?? :D

Well the article gets a bit better towards the end, but this Robert Locke sounds like a prick to me.

nobody dreams of being like them or aspiring to someday live within their society.
Well you're wrong actually, Bridge.
 
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Crunchy Cat

Agreed. I would assert; however, that the Islamic world lacks the flexability to overcome many challanges that others can.
If only because it lacks the economic luxury of flexibility. True, they're stuck in a rut. But it can only be considered permanent if it exists independently of different influences. There's a reason it's university students and professors in Iran; there's a reason it's Egyptian journalists; there's a reason it's not the common Muslim in a third-world nation carrying the banner of a more vital Islam apropos the era. It is because these people are, for various reasons, engaged in such ideas.

There's a "for Dummies" site offered in a "Required Reading" topic; the website makes the point that it's not necessarily being a dummy, but that being caught up in maintaining a home, working, raising children ... well, it's hard to find time to consider certain ideas. It can't be any easier for the common Iraqi or Afghani.
It does point to a human problem, but I think that Islamic inflexibility reduced itself to not being able to grow beyond basic human problems.
So it stays relevant to the issues concerning a great portion of its adherents; what is perceived as elitism among mystics is the flip-side of this problem--a religion can become too complex for the everyday believer.
Don't you wish we could get into the heads a mass of people and extract their thoughts? It would make interpretation so much easier.
So it would seem. But the diversity of interpretations from the diversity of information would be a sticky situation. I think we'll be seeing a new trend emerge in American politics; letting the truth "bleed into the river". Note how little interest Wolfowitz's mouth generates among the average American. There's too much information to handle, and if they can find a more spectacular headline to offer, the story they don't want people talking about will get lost in the muddle of exclusives and on-scene investigative reports about fluff. I know that with such clairvoyance I could simply get lost in the sea of information and forget to do anything with it.

And you know that when we get around to that technology, it will be a direct-marketing technology that first achieves the capability.
Yes and at a more 'primal' level.
It is a more primal condition. Give every Palestinian and Iraqi food, a G5, and the opportunity to sit around and consider their condition in detail on a discussion board and I guarantee you the debate will become more sophisticated.

Take Iraq: there's not enough food and water, there's a plethora of guns, and that's the way it's been for a while. I fight over ideas; some of the people I see in the images coming from around the world are fighting for a meal.
It's that big ol' wall of inflexibility I mentioned. It's not an adaptation promoter.
I just think the process works the other way around.
I see a minority in the Islamic environment as being supressed rather than being given freedom to explore
it's potential. This seems relevant to me.
Relevant, perhaps. Effective in its context? I contest.

If that minority is still composed of Muslims it is an indicator that yes, seeds do flower in that desert, and points toward the problems being more common and human, influenced in their manifestation by Islam and the human politic.

And my larger point is that Islam is no more defective than anything else written down as a code. That's what bugs me about the article; Locke seems to be calling the kettle black with his comparisons; a more serious and useful article would have explored the reasons for the points he raised. There's a whole book condensed into that article.

Islam is a human creation that suffers human imperfections. History demonstrates that people remedy those problems when they feel they have the time.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Originally posted by Mucker
[B[/list] Maybe it's just me, but does anyone else not find the thought of seventy virgins, crude?? :D
[/B]

Back up your words lier. Give the Quranic verse that support your nonesense or cease to exist.
 
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