Is 'Western Islam' a Separate Religion?

G

Gordon

Registered Senior Member
Below is a topical quote from the UK (BBC on line news 4th. July 06):

"And Inayat Bunglawala, spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, said many Muslims believed the UK's involvement in wars against Afghanistan and Iraq were a "key contributory factor in the radicalisation" of some young Muslims.

"That said, it is true that extremists often paint a very unfair picture of the West. We all benefit from freedoms and opportunities here that are not exactly plentiful in many Muslim countries he added.

A Populus poll for The Times newspaper and ITV news suggests 13% of UK Muslims believe the 7/7 bombers should be regarded as martyrs, with the other 87% disagreeing."

The section in blue seems to be an extraordinary statement against 'Muslim countries' from a fellow Muslim.

Perhaps one of our muslim contributors can comment.

Sadly the last part indicates that even in the westernised UK, 208,000 people believe that indiscriminate maiming and murder of innocent people including fellow muslims is not only acceptable but honourable.

What would be the view of muslims if 13% of Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Christians or even Atheists thought that this was a correct thing to do?

regards,


Gordon.
 
Western Islam is no more different to it's Eastern origins than what Christianity is from the dark ages. Islam still breeds on restriction of freedoms and intolerance with the same style of Christianity (except less so these days).

Modern day Christians feel the need to intrude on Muslims affairs and Muslims understandably to a point, react.
 
Gordon said:
Below is a topical quote from the UK (BBC on line news 4th. July 06):

"And Inayat Bunglawala, spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, said many Muslims believed the UK's involvement in wars against Afghanistan and Iraq were a "key contributory factor in the radicalisation" of some young Muslims.

"That said, it is true that extremists often paint a very unfair picture of the West. We all benefit from freedoms and opportunities here that are not exactly plentiful in many Muslim countries he added.

A Populus poll for The Times newspaper and ITV news suggests 13% of UK Muslims believe the 7/7 bombers should be regarded as martyrs, with the other 87% disagreeing."

The section in blue seems to be an extraordinary statement against 'Muslim countries' from a fellow Muslim.

Perhaps one of our muslim contributors can comment.

Sadly the last part indicates that even in the westernised UK, 208,000 people believe that indiscriminate maiming and murder of innocent people including fellow muslims is not only acceptable but honourable.

What would be the view of muslims if 13% of Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Christians or even Atheists thought that this was a correct thing to do?

regards,


Gordon.
Click to expand...

Looks like there are only 208,000 true muslims in the UK. More than enough to enough to carry out jihad operations. They are called on bring terror to the infidels, and they will. Given the opportunity.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Adstar: You only perceive what a 'true' muslim is, same as you perceive what a good Christian is. The Bible is so contradictive that it is impossible to be 'true' to anything it says since it appears to be two religions (at least) glued into one book.
 
Firstly, "western muslim" instead of "western islam".

Gordon said:
"And Inayat Bunglawala, spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, said many Muslims believed the UK's involvement in wars against Afghanistan and Iraq were a "key contributory factor in the radicalisation" of some young Muslims.
Click to expand...

the same belief will do if "muslims" is changed to "any groups of people"; regarding foreign involvement in war in their countries.

"That said, it is true that extremists often paint a very unfair picture of the West. We all benefit from freedoms and opportunities here that are not exactly plentiful in many Muslim countries he added.
Click to expand...

what to say, it's been a long way of chained of causes and effects, actions and reactions, obscuring the initial stand point one should be starting at. Both have reasons to blame each others. But yes, the fact, that statement is strongly reasonable.

A Populus poll for The Times newspaper and ITV news suggests 13% of UK Muslims believe the 7/7 bombers should be regarded as martyrs, with the other 87% disagreeing."
Click to expand...

That was murder. Crime. Then I would say 13% of UK Muslims don't know what martyr is (in regard of its definition in islam; arabic "syuhada"). By no means killing innocense is allowed in islam.

Sadly the last part indicates that even in the westernised UK, 208,000 people believe that indiscriminate maiming and murder of innocent people including fellow muslims is not only acceptable but honourable.
Click to expand...

Yes, so sad.

What would be the view of muslims if 13% of Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Christians or even Atheists thought that this was a correct thing to do?
Click to expand...

It can be assumed for that 13% of blinded mind muslims UK; maybe they will say it would be wrong.

As for the rest 87%, they already shown their view.
 
By no means killing innocense is allowed in islam.
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Yes, but then again, infidels are not innocent in the eyes of the Quran. In fact it seems obvious that non-believers are the worst people in the eyes of the Quran. Therefor by killing infidels you are not killing innocent people. This is what I (as an atheist) have gathered from the many rather harsh quotes I've read from the Quran.

If I am wrong I would like to see some scripture saying otherwise, if you could provide it.
 
Adstar said:
Looks like there are only 208,000 true muslims in the UK. More than enough to enough to carry out jihad operations. They are called on bring terror to the infidels, and they will. Given the opportunity.
Click to expand...

Had it 'true islam" and "jihad" is based on your own definition.
 
KennyJC said:
Yes, but then again, infidels are not innocent in the eyes of the Quran. In fact it seems obvious that non-believers are the worst people in the eyes of the Quran. Therefor by killing infidels you are not killing innocent people. This is what I (as an atheist) have gathered from the many rather harsh quotes I've read from the Quran.

If I am wrong I would like to see some scripture saying otherwise, if you could provide it.
Click to expand...

In the eyes of God, infidels are not innocent. That's God's business, not muslims.
As for muslim, killing by no reason, is sin. infidels or anyone.
The scripture text you gathered were revealed as guide for muhammad dealing with war. Muslims interpret scripture based on the text and the context when the verses revealed. There are reasons behind the texts; that if you would also willing to learn the "cause of revelation".
 
Muslims also interpret scripture based on their own cultural prejudices. Sufi Islam is quite different than mainstream Islam, yet it is based on the same text.
 
spidergoat said:
Muslims also interpret scripture based on their own cultural prejudices. Sufi Islam is quite different than mainstream Islam, yet it is based on the same text.
Click to expand...

You are right, as addition. The basic should be the same, and interpretation could be varied. But the result of interpretation, by no means could be against the scripture as the ultimate base.
 
Words must always be interpreted, therefore, no matter what scripture, there is no "base". The devil is in the details, as they say. That is why the first words of the Tao Te Ching are, "The truth that can be spoken is not the eternal truth".
 
KennyJC said:
Yes, but then again, infidels are not innocent in the eyes of the Quran. In fact it seems obvious that non-believers are the worst people in the eyes of the Quran. Therefor by killing infidels you are not killing innocent people. This is what I (as an atheist) have gathered from the many rather harsh quotes I've read from the Quran.

If I am wrong I would like to see some scripture saying otherwise, if you could provide it.
Click to expand...


Here's a few that I can remember, there are many more.

Whosoever kills a human being without (any reason like) man slaughter, or terrorism, it is as though he had killed all mankind ... (5:32)

Do not kill a soul which Allah has made sacred except through the due process of law ... (6:151)

"Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression" (5:2). "And do not let ill-will towards any folk incite you so that you swerve from dealing justly. Be just; that is nearest to heedfulness" (5:8). Stressing this point the Quran again says: "You who believe! stand steadfast before God as witness for (truth and) fair play" (4:135).

[2.178] O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter
of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the
female for the female, but if any remission is made to any one by his
(aggrieved) brother, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made
according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner;
this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the
limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.

[2.179] And there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O men of
understanding, that you may guard yourselves.

[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and
do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the
limits.

[18.74] So they went on until, when they met a boy, he slew him. (Musa)
said: Have you slain an innocent person otherwise than for manslaughter?
Certainly you have done an evil thing.

[2.284] Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is
Allah's; and whether you manifest what is in your minds or hide it, Allah
will call you to account according to it; then He will forgive whom He
pleases and chastise whom He pleases, and Allah has power over all things.
 
Spider, agreed.
As my understanding of Qur'an, some texts are clear and solid to be directly applied, while many require interpretation. Some day in the future I believe more interpretations should be made, including those considered as clear today.
What I mean base, is the starting point you would put in interpreting, the (0,0) coordinate if you see it from cartesian diagram.
 
Kenny JC:

Some more- these are some of the direct verses I remember.

[17:33] Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)

[22:39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;

[42:40-43] The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) loves not those who do wrong. But indeed if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong (done) to them, against such there is no cause of blame. The blame is only against those who oppress men and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice: for such there will be a grievous penalty. And whoever is patient and forgiving, these most surely are actions due to courage.

[2:136] Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered.

[4:59] O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you do believe in Allah and the Last Day; That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

So whatever thing you are given, that is only a provision of this world's life, and what is with Allah is better and more lasting for those who believe and rely on their Lord, and those who shun the great sins and indecencies, and whenever they are angry they forgive, and those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them.[Qur'an 42:36-38]

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (not that you may despise each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."[49:13]
 
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The quran was not written is English, so some interpretation was required if only to translate. What does life mean, who is a person, what is Allah?
 
spidergoat said:
Muslims also interpret scripture based on their own cultural prejudices. Sufi Islam is quite different than mainstream Islam, yet it is based on the same text.
Click to expand...


Sufi Islam is philosophical and focuses on the mystical aspects of the religion; its for philosophers :)
 
Careful... you might be implying that all those who are non-mystical are non-thinkers.
 
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