Is time universal? NO (and its proof)
- Thread starter Billy T
- Start date
MacM said:
If a tree falls in the forest, and there's nobody around to hear it, does it make a noise?
No distant observers. Clock at the explosion is stopped by explosion. Perhaps no one sees the stopped clock for a week, and no one was even around or even saw the explosions from a distance. I.e. stop your nonsense about perception, appearances, propagation delays, etc.MacM said:
When does the explosion occur if not at the time recorded on the clock adjacent to the explosion? What is this "universal sense"? I tell time with clocks. Do you have some extra sense that tells you Universal time?
quadraphonics said:
If you read the definition of noise they all involve hearing the unwanted sound.
So I suggest the answer is technically no it doesn't make noise but it does make sound which is defined as the vibaration in air, water, etc., that a falling tree would make.
MacM said:
Prove it.
quadraphonics said:
That is not only so easy it is pathetic but has certainly been done many times I am sure.
Any recording device which converts air pressure waves into signals which can be either observed or penned in ink or even taped, do not "Hear" (hence no noise) but record sound produced by the falling tree. To be sure one would need to have a video camera so as to correlate the falling tree with the air compression waves.
:bugeye: :m:
MacM said:
Is this you trying to some kind of smartass, or are you actually dumb enough to think videotaping the tree falling and then watching it later counts as "nobody around to hear it"? Whichever it is, we are convinced you should give the physics a rest for a while and read a few books on Zen instead.
MacM, you have made several posts but are ignoring mine (and my 3 questions). Why?
You said:
If you do not need clocks, but have some magic way to know when things "actually occur," please share it with us.
You said:
I replied:MacM said:
Billy T said:
If you do not need clocks, but have some magic way to know when things "actually occur," please share it with us.
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Billy T said:
Actually, I see no reason to respond. 2Iq has already posted information which confirms my prior arguments against Length Contraction. It is a ficticious function of relativity created by ignoring the tick rate differance of clocks used to measure d = vt. [post=942555]Here[/post]
If a tree falls in the forest, and there's nobody around to hear it, does it make a noise?
The laws of physics would suggest that a noise was created. And even if there was someone there to hear it, they couldn't prove it since they were crushed by a falling tree.
The laws of physics would suggest that a noise was created. And even if there was someone there to hear it, they couldn't prove it since they were crushed by a falling tree.
A classic "DUCK and WEAVE" by MacM if ever there was one.MacM said:
I said nothing about length contractions or tick rates and there is no “d“ - CLOCK is ADJACENT to EVENT.
You claim the time shown on the stopped stop watch adjacent to the explosion event is not the time it "actually occurred." - If event times are not measured by clock at site of event, please tell how you know (your secrete magic method) when the event "actually occurred."
Billy T said:
When you are done arm waving perhaps you will address some actual issues.
You just claimed that your scenario did not include time dilation, delays or length contraction. Considering that those are held to be real physical affects by current physics I wonder just how you suggest your example is in any way a valid scenario?
Lets have a look. Let the spacing of the men on the embankment be 1 meter and let each man be numbered sequentially. The train is 1,000 meters long when at rest and the line of men is several thousand meters long.
The train now passes this line of men traveling at 0.866c which means that gamma = 2.000. If according to a passenger located at the center of the train he is located adjacent to man number 5,000 when the bombs go off then the bomb at the front of the train should be next to number 5,500 and the aft bomb would be at number 4,500.
Except due to relative velocity the line of men spacing has contracted and the front bomb therefore is at number 6,000 and the aft bomb is at number 4,000.
But according to the men on the embankment the train is no longer 1,000 meters long and they would insist that the front bomb is at number 5,250 and the aft bomb is at number 4,750.
This of course cannot be the case because you would be killing 4 different people. So certainly we MUST consider light propagation delays, time dilation and length contraction if we hope to resolve this issue.
Lets start with the claim of length contraction shall we. As the passenger on the train passes each man on the embankment a signaling device generates a tick and it obviously means the train has moved 1 meter along the embankment.
According to relativity the men on the embankment measure that the trains clocks all are running at only 50% their embankment tick rate and that the passengers on the train see the distance contracted because they go from number 1 to number 299,792,458 in 0.5 seconds, not 1 second.
Based on all input data the conclusion should not be that dimension has contracted but that velocity has increased. After all the tick rate generated by passing the 1 meter spaced men is now 599,584,916 ticks/second according to onboard clocks.
So without spatial length contraction but a more realistic conclusion of superluminal velocity (even though light would still move a v = c relative to the train even though it would appear that the train was moving at 1.7c) how do you propose to maintain your belief in SR.
Answer to all of your irrelevant post above is simple:MacM said:
I only require that there is a ground clock very near each explosion when the small bombs go off and that the train is long enough to make the advance of the end of it towards the flash of light traveling towards the rear have significantly less ground distance to travel than the forward going flash of light must travel to catch up to the bomb at the front of the train and trigger it to explode.
Note that this is not any comparison of lengths between frames, only two ground frame lengths. Neither is it any comparison to time intervals between two frames, or their “tick rates” etc. All this is “duck” and “weave” details you are introducing.
You can babble all you like about "length contractions" "time dilations" “tick rates” or any other frame-to-frame comparison effect you wish to discuss, but that will not change the fact the light flash takes less time to reach the end of train bomb advancing to met the light than the time required for the flash of light to catch up to the front of the train, which was moving down the track as the light is trying to catch up to the front bomb.
I.e. for all train observers, the two bombs (always equally distant from the light flash source) are exploding simultaneously, but the ground clock /stopwatch that happened to be adjacent to the rear bomb when it exploded records the explosion as earlier than the ground stop watch adjacent to the front of train bomb when it explodes (Not simultaneous explosions for ground clocks.)
I do not care. - Say anything you like about how the space between these ground clocks appears to be different than half the length of the train due to "length contraction" or "length expansion" or anything else you like to invent. IT IS IRRLEIVANT, only more "duck" and "weave."
All that maters is that because the train moves while flash is traveling, the two ground clocks, each adjacent to one of the explosions and stopped by the explosions, show two different times, when days later someone comes to look at them, but the clocks on the train, also stopped by the explosions, have the same time "frozen" on their dials. They can even be returned to the station months later to show “ground people” that the explosion were simultaneous (in the frame of the moving train.)
Again: There is no comparison of any time intervals between frames, no tick rates to compare, not lengths to measure, none of you attempts to "duck" and "weave" have anything to do with this simple experiment.
Billy T said:
FALSE. Only for synchronized stop watches at the bomb locations or a passenger at the center of the train where the flash originates but not to obsevers displaced along the train itself.
You need to do more reading. You might start with RCM theory and/or EmissionExtinction Shift Theory. Invariance measuremanet of light does not mean what you seem to think it must.
Time is not absolute. Time is only relative.
Perhaps we can say that it is a social construct. Nature did not make time. Nature is infinite --- it never begins, never ends. It is ever flowing like water. It never stops, It cannot be bound.
Humans can only measure it in relation to something --- an event (CE) or a place (GMT). We bind it only in our minds. And although it gives us greater control over things (including on our lives and on the nature), what is referred to as time, goes by uninterrupted.
Perhaps we can say that it is a social construct. Nature did not make time. Nature is infinite --- it never begins, never ends. It is ever flowing like water. It never stops, It cannot be bound.
Humans can only measure it in relation to something --- an event (CE) or a place (GMT). We bind it only in our minds. And although it gives us greater control over things (including on our lives and on the nature), what is referred to as time, goes by uninterrupted.