So what about other countries and/or continents (for avatar) in the world?
Is this justifiable?
- Thread starter ReighnStorm
- Start date
ReighnStorm said:
Where are you getting all of this money and food, Reighn?
Surely you don't expect westerners to give up their entertainment funds just to feed a couple of starving kids, do you? Surely you don't want people to give up their $50/mo Internet connection, do you? Surely you don't expect people to give up their $60/mo cable TV entertainment, do you? Or their new cars every two years? Or their new furniture every five years? Or their ....well, you get the picture, right?
Reighn, how long do you think it will be before you begin to understand that people don't give a shit? Oh, sure, they say they do, but you know by now that actions speak louder than words? People don't give a shit, Reighn ...it's a fact of life with humans!
Baron Max
Bells
Staff member
So how would you determine who wants to leave? Put up signs around the country? Possibly do some sky writing where a few planes zoom around with a smoke machine and put up a message "will take you elsewhere to live on a golf course/hunting lands/ski field.. those who wish to go, call 1800#"? What happens if all of them say they want to go?ReighnStorm said:
And what happens when another African country suffers the same fate? Move them as well? Remove them from their lands and homes and their heritage instead of teaching them how to be self-sufficient? These people are connected to their lands and their customs. Simply "evacuating" them will not solve the the problem. What will they do when they get to the US and other countries? Welfare? Your welfare system can barely cope now as it is. So who will feed, clothe and shelter these millions of refugees who will be coming all at once? Your country barely has the resources to deal with the poverty that already exists within your own borders, so how exactly will you cope? And what about the other countries? Where would they put these people? How will they feed, clothe and shelter them? They're having problems of their own with their population dipping too far below the poverty line, so what will they do? Are we looking at a similar scenario of when Palestine was "evacuated" to make way for the European Jewish refugees?
Of course, once you've set this standard, other countries suffering from drought and who's population is suffering will also be looking to be "evacuated". What then? How do you determine who gets evacuated and who does not?
Yes millions migrate to America and other countries every year. But do you seriously think that any country could cope with such an influx of people? As I said, your idea is all nice and fuzzy, but it is in no way viable. Why do you want to continue breeding the welfare mentality that already exists in Africa? This is a continent that is rich in minerals yet their Governments plunder all the wealth to line their own pockets. Why not start a program by which these countries and their populace can learn to become self-sufficient? Wouldn't that be a better solution?
Yes you did say to take them and put them somewhere as a "solution".. you did make the statement after all. It can never be a solution to this kind of a problem.
And yet some do manage to thrive in such environments. How and why is that? Could it possibly be that had they not stripped the land of all vegetation, resulting in soil erosion and such, that they might be in a better position now? Could it be that if their Governments weren't such greedy arseholes, they would not be so dependent on foreign aid? Could it be that if they were taught to better manage their lands, they might start becoming self sufficient and self reliant? Could it be that if they were educated in regard to family planning and contraception, that would help their situation better?
He's right. Lets look at just Niger for example. Their defence spending is approximately $33.3 million (in 2004). Wouldn't that money be better spent elsewhere? Oooooh I don't know, possibly in health? That could be a start there, couldn't it? I'm also guessing that if the Government itself were not so corrupt, some of the aid would actually reach the people, instead of the backsides of the politicians..ReighnStorm said:
Think of how many vaccines that $60,000 could have bought... The mind actually boggles.
Yes it is. And your solution to simply keep feeding them cannot be viewed as something for the long term. Instead of just handing over the food, how about we actually also teach them to make their own, to better manage their lands, to use contraception, etc. Self sufficiency and self reliance is a much better option than leaving both hands permanently out for charity. No one wants these people to starve and while giving them aid is a wonderful notion, it is not and should never be viewed as a permanent fix.
What about them? They too get aid when in need and the people on those continents also don't always receive said aid. I mean just look at what happened to the aid that was sent to the countries affected by the Tsunami? Most of it is still rotting away on the docks as their Governments haggle over money and taxes. Instead of the people getting the water purification kits and the tents to use as temporary shelter, they are getting very little. And yet they are still managing to recover, even without the aid that was promised to them.
Annual world expenditure on doggy treats: >$3 billion.
"In Africa, malaria is the number-one killer of children: a child dies of malaria every 30 seconds."
okay, do you honestly believe this? if one child died every thirty seconds, africans would not have enough of a population to be starving. it would mean that over six hundred thousand africans are dying every week from malaria alone.
"What if it's America with the problem next?"
starvation in america? when double bacon cheeseburgers fly! :bugeye:
don't get me wrong, it's wonderful that you care. but sometimes it takes more than one person to change a situation, in fact it takes so many people that it becomes just im-****ing-possible.
okay, do you honestly believe this? if one child died every thirty seconds, africans would not have enough of a population to be starving. it would mean that over six hundred thousand africans are dying every week from malaria alone.
"What if it's America with the problem next?"
starvation in america? when double bacon cheeseburgers fly! :bugeye:
don't get me wrong, it's wonderful that you care. but sometimes it takes more than one person to change a situation, in fact it takes so many people that it becomes just im-****ing-possible.
I know that the question marks were just for your reply....but this whole reply again is just stupid :bugeye:
It doesn't matter how smart a person is or how much money they have. Drought is drought. Even where I live. Drought is Drought. Even with all the money in America or how smart they are...disease is disease.
If the land fights against you then being self sustaining flies out the window. You're sustained as long as your land decides to sustain you.
'Area:
total: 1.267 million sq km
land: 1,266,700 sq km
water: 300 sq km'
one of the hottest countries in the world: northern four-fifths is desert, southern one-fifth is savanna, suitable for livestock and limited agriculture.
Actually that is the same mentality of the government of the USA. Put them on welfare and they will stay out of our way and die. (backfired)
this is what i asked:
Is it because this place is Africa that these children starve by the millions (justifiable)............Have you really thought about this at all?......What are your opinions about aiding other countries?.....do you have any similiar stories to add? Not as a nation of people but as a planet of people...is there not more that we should/can/willing to do???
Haven't I educated you enough about opinions! That's 1 suggestion not THE answer! Didn't expect anyone to take me that seriously.
Again, drought is drought...perfectly natural for that part of the world and other parts of the world. But a combination of that and other disease makes it worse. (malaria, AIDS,drought etc.....at the same time).
The relationship between drought and malaria is also frequently misunderstood but has implications on the populations in malaria areas both during and after the drought. Experience from Southern Africa suggests that malaria can increase in stable malaria areas affected by drought, due to a reduction in population immunity, exacerbated by malnutrition. However, once the rains return, the risk of malaria epidemics rises significantly in areas of unstable malaria transmission due to an increase in breeding sites, resulting in a significant increase in the vector population with explosive epidemics.
So you're saying that there should be restrictions on having family? I could say the same for every nation's unwanted pregnancy percentage and abortion. Even with all the education.
http://www.sahims.net/regional/exec...ew_04_04_28.htm
So they shouldn't worry about defending themselves?
WHO estimates that global demand for ACTs will soar from about 20 million per year at present to between 130 to 220 million adult treatments next year. In following years and at the current price, about $1 billion per year will be required to provide 60 per cent of the affected population. Without successful implementation of ACT in the next decade, significant progress in controlling malaria will be impossible. ACT must be provided to individuals free of charge, or at an affordable price. .
The Tsunami has nothing on this.
Good questions Baron Max and also You're exactly on point!
Bells
Staff member
And yet Reighn, even with all the aid the country receives, it is still not enough and never will be enough because the population continues to grow and these people are totally unable to sustain themselves. I'm well aware of what drought is Reighn. I live in a country that is plagued by it. But with better land management, people do get by. As for disease, well if the State did not squander so much of the revenue they do get (eg. do not spend $60,000+ on toilet paper for politicians.. I mean what in the hell kind of toilet paper are they using? Silk?), be it from aid or from trade, they would be able to better supply the medication and vaccines that is needed. They also need to EDUCATE the populace in regards to AIDS and encourage to use condoms.. this would mean that they will have to tell the Church to back off. I fully understand that the plague of locusts did not help matters much this season and the drought further increased their troubles. I'm not saying they shouldn't get aid. I'm merely saying that just giving them handouts is not enough. We need to start looking at the long term picture beyond this disaster. They need to start relying on themselves a bit more instead of only relying on others. They need to be educated so that they become more self sufficient. Yes they live in one of the hottest countries on the planet, but others manage to sustain themselves in worse situations.ReighnStorm said:
And it will continue to do so. You can't turn a whole country into a welfare State. It is wrong. Giving aid is one thing, but when the whole country begins to rely solely on that aid as a means to survive and not do anything about learning to become self-reliant, then the problem will never go away.
I can see that you have thought about it, but you appear to refuse to see that making a continent solely reliant on aid is a bad idea in the long run. Of course it is not justified. It could never be justified. But you have been given a plethora of opinions on what can be done and you have discounted all of it. My opinion in aiding other countries? Give it to them as needed but also ensure that they actually get the aid and that it does not go into the pockets of the Governments. The aid should also come in the guise of better education programs for the country as a whole on how to combat the problems they are currently facing. There is always more that we can do, but sometimes we can do too much and the country, as well as the people, do not benefit at all. Instead they suffer even more. Education is the key. Teach them to not clear the land to such an extent. Deforestation leads to so many problems. As kotoko rightly pointed out, they need to learn about crop rotation to ensure the viability of the land. The country and the continent itself is rich in minerals. There's a good source of income and employment. The Governments need to be held accountable for stealing so much of their country's wealth. Get rid of people like Mugabe and the other tyrants who care about nothing but increasing their own personal wealth to the detriment of their people. Educate them about family planning. The list is long and could go on for ever. That is just the tip of the iceberg Reighn.
I understand exactly what you mean. They have copped the full mother load in one go. And while I do agree with you that they do need aid right now and that goes without saying. However they also need long term help that has to go beyond food handouts... as in what has been discussed above and in other posts.. eg. education, trying to teach them to become self-sufficient, etc.
However, if you wish to help them in regards to their health... Start lobbying the pharmaceutical companies so that they further allow generic drugs can be massed produced and distributed where it is needed. You can also start lobbying the religions that are holding the countries to ransom in regards to the education and distribution of condoms. In regards to malaria, you might find this link interesting:
CorpWatch: Malaria Is Not Too Expensive to Treat Effectively
Again, start lobbying the companies and your Government as well. Nag them and do not ever let up. Sometimes they might even start to listen. Believe me, I've seen it happen first hand. Get everyone you know involved.
Médecins Sans Frontières are literally begging Governments to take a more active role in bringing down the prices of AIDS medication. Take a two pronged approach and start hounding the Government from the public side as well.
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational...3D&component=toolkit.article&method=full_html
Start donating to organisations like Médecins Sans Frontières who actually work on the ground in these countries and who will fight to ensure that the aid and medical treatment actually gets to the people who need it. Believe me, every little cent counts.
http://www.msf.org/
You can also consider volunteering your services and your time to some of these aid organisations.. eg. Amnesty International, Médecins Sans Frontières, Red Cross, etc in spreading the word.
For drought? Cut back on land clearing and deforestration for starters. Crop diversification would also help. Put in place an early warning system and try to ensure that some form of back-up in food supply is available. Better water management (when there is water that is lol) and better storage facilities for both water and crops. You'll find this article very thorough and very informative in regards to drought and desertifcation prevention and management:
http://www.unccd.int/convention/history/agenda21.php
I mentioned it as an example of how some Governments just do not distribute the aid that is given. I understand you are solely concerned with the issues in Africa and that possibly aid in other areas of the world just don't matter to you and that is your perogative, but looking at what happens in other areas of the world might make you see the issues a bit more clearly. I was merely pointing out when I mentioned the tsunami that no matter how much aid was given out, the people are yet to receive what they need to recover. If you fail to recognise an example, then I shall have to put things in more simple terms for you.
Kotoko said:
Because they have no social security and know that half of their children will die. Its important to have some healthy, preferably male children to support your ass when you are too old to work.
They're just playing averages. They know that like half of their children will die from disease and ****.
Avatar said:
This is not the the fukking suburbs man. You cannot gurantee one child will survive living under those conditions no matter how good they take care of that child. In countries where people still subsistence farm, and practice collective economics in the family, the larger the family the better.
boys >>> girls, as generally the son will marry and bring the wife to his house, creating another set of hands to do the work...while girls..well you feed them until they leave you and go to someone else's house.
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Just curious .......how many of y'all have poor, hungry children without adequate medical care within a ten mile radius of where you live? And if you do, why are we so interested in helping children thousands of miles away in another country?
Within ten miles of me, there are probably hundreds of thousands of destitute people. I ain't helping them because I can't, how 'bout y'all? Reighn?
Or is this really about spending someone else's money????? Hmmm?
Baron Max
Within ten miles of me, there are probably hundreds of thousands of destitute people. I ain't helping them because I can't, how 'bout y'all? Reighn?
Or is this really about spending someone else's money????? Hmmm?
Baron Max
May I remind you once again that this is not just about one country or continent. I posted on page one another link about starving children in America. Please feel free to post another country that concerns you.
http://www.ruthoron.net/Hunger-RO-MS-MW.html
Eleven to twelve million Americans experience moderate to severe hunger. An additional 23-24 million people are 'food insecure,' i.e., either cut the size of their meals or skip meals. ...Some of the consequences of chronic hunger in children are infant mortality, poor cognitive development, and increased risk of disease.
http://www.ruthoron.net/Hunger-RO-MS-MW.html
Eleven to twelve million Americans experience moderate to severe hunger. An additional 23-24 million people are 'food insecure,' i.e., either cut the size of their meals or skip meals. ...Some of the consequences of chronic hunger in children are infant mortality, poor cognitive development, and increased risk of disease.
Avatar said:
Hypocracy! That's what I was talking about ....pure damned hypocracy!
There are thousands of starving, underprivileged children almost within reach, yet we make a big deal about those tens of thousands of miles away. Is it, perhaps, because it gives us the opportunity to make claims of caring because it's on the news and a popular topic? ...makes us feel good while not actually having to do anything!
Baron Max
antifreeze said:"In Africa, malaria is the number-one killer of children: a child dies of malaria every 30 seconds."
okay, do you honestly believe this? if one child died every thirty seconds, africans would not have enough of a population to be starving. it would mean that over six hundred thousand africans are dying every week from malaria alone.
.
you may want to check your maths.
Bells
Staff member
Another way to put those figures into perspective is offered by Prof. Wen Kilama.. who stated in The Economist in May, 2003 that the figures represented seven Boeing 747's filled with mostly children crashing into Mount Kilimanjaro on a daily basis. (I've linked to the abstract of the article as you need to be a subscribed member to access it)...
Bells
Staff member
A big deal is made about the dying in Africa simply because it is more visible to us through the media. The media in our respective countries are not going to show us the children within our borders dying of malnutrition, of illnesses and diseases that one can easily treat, exposure, inhuman living conditions, etc. We in the West like to feel comforted that everyone in our country is as comfortable as we are and eating as well as we are. To know that there are children dying of treatable diseases and malnutrition, for example, in our own countries would make us feel like failures. That there are people living in third world conditions in the West makes us feel uncomfortable... in fact, mention it to your neighbour and he/she would probably squirm with discomfort and change the subject. It can't happen after all... right? We are the West!Baron Max said:
That is the hypocrisy of the whole sad situation. We turn a blind eye to our own problems because we don't want to feel that we aren't doing enough to save those in our own countries. That there are people living in our countries without so much as a clean water supply is simply impossible to comprehend for those of us who can turn on a tap and have a drink.
We see the same problem here in Australia. Here are a few links about Indigenous health care (or lack of):
Summary of Australian Indigenous Health
A statistical overview of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples in Australia.. Click on Health in menu option
Indigenous health: chronically inadequate responses to damning statistics