Is there Free Will?

M

Michael

歌舞伎
Valued Senior Member
I found this interesting and woundered what others thought about it:

1. God's knowledge cannot be wrong.
2. God knows that I will do A.
3. If I have free will, then (I can do A) and (I can do ~A).
4. If I can do ~A, then it is possibly true that I will do ~A.
5. If it is possibly true that I will do ~A, then God's 'knowledge' that I will do A is possibly false.
6. If God's knowledge that I will do A is possibly false, then God's
'knowledge' can be wrong.
7. Therefore, God's knowledge that I will do A is not possibly false.
8. Therefore, it is not possibly true that I will do ~A.
9. Therefore, I cannot do ~A.
10. Therefore, it is false that (I can do A) and (I can do ~A).
11. Therefore, I don't have free will.

from:
http://home.earthlink.net/~kirby/xtianity/freewill.html
 
Originally posted by Michael
I found this interesting and woundered what others thought about it:

1. God's knowledge cannot be wrong.11. Therefore, I don't have free will.

from:
http://home.earthlink.net/~kirby/xtianity/freewill.html
Click to expand...

You have it wrong. God does not know that you are going to choose A or B or C. But he knows the outcome of A or B or C. You choose, and god has a place ready for you based on your choice. God is still all knowing. He knows your options and your outcomes, but he doesn't control your choice and free will.
 
heflores,

You have it wrong. God does not know that you are going to choose A or B or C. But he knows the outcome of A or B or C.
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Then God therefore is not all-knowing because he does not know that you are going to choose A or B or C. If he is all-knowing then he would know both the choice you are going to make and the outcome.

Then you go on to say...

God is still all knowing. He knows your options and your outcomes, but he doesn't control your choice and free will.
Click to expand...

So what you're suggesting is that God has no plan (because if he did then everything would be on God's terms). An interesting idea I thought there was a divine plan for all Gods beings and creatures.
 
Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
I'll just state my opinion and will elaborate tomorrow.....Free will is an illusion.
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Coudn't have said it better....It is an illusion.

As a person you see many different roads and choices before you, but as your life plays out, you form one distinct path of choices and decisions....that will ultimely led you to haven or hell. God can see past all those options even though you can't so, you feel as if you have the ability to determine what your going to do but in actuality, God sees every choice you will make in advance, he sees the one distinct path of decisions from your birth.

He knows you will have the option of being a doctor or lawyer and that you will chose lawyer. Although you THINK you could have been a doctor, you could not. God forsaw you being a lawyer and nothing can change what an all-knowing all-powerful god predicts. Your path was formed by God before you were born and your destined to act it out.
 
Micheal

i've been through this logic many times but it always interesting to see people reactions to the notion that if god exist as the bible describes him, then there can not be true free will. Keep the thread going, i'll be back for more:D
 
Originally posted by Horseman42
heflores,



Then God therefore is not all-knowing because he does not know that you are going to choose A or B or C. If he is all-knowing then he would know both the choice you are going to make and the outcome.

Then you go on to say...



So what you're suggesting is that God has no plan (because if he did then everything would be on God's terms). An interesting idea I thought there was a divine plan for all Gods beings and creatures.
Click to expand...

There is no contradiction, he is still all knowing. For example. If I place two people in one testing room with two choices that leads out to two rooms, then I'm all knowing that those people will end up in one of the rooms. I have not lost control or knowledge of the system, I merely allowed it to go through a process with known destinations.

Man is all knowing about sorting numbers. But until the computer is finished sorting, man does not know where the numbers lie. It is a matter of short time to know, but at the end all knowledge is with god.
 
Free will exists, yes.. but it is fleeting. I quit smoking for instance. That was an act of free will. I married my wife, that was an act of free will. Hehe, I'm typing this message right now, but it's only somewhat freewill and somewhat compulsory. :)
 
heflores,


You really need to grasp what all-knowing means..

I really am amazed how many people cannot understand this simple concept...

There is no contradiction, he is still all knowing. For example. If I place two people in one testing room with two choices that leads out to two rooms, then I'm all knowing that those people will end up in one of the rooms. I have not lost control or knowledge of the system, I merely allowed it to go through a process with known destinations.
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You're forgeting all-knowing means to know EVERYTHING! There is nothing unknown to such a being!

If you were truely all-knowing then you would know exactly which room which people would end up in, and would not need to say you know that it would be one of the two.

Man is all knowing about sorting numbers. But until the computer is finished sorting, man does not know where the numbers lie. It is a matter of short time to know, but at the end all knowledge is with god.
Click to expand...

I'm a little unsure what your saying in this example. Perhaps I don't know enough about computers. You say Man is all-knowing about sorting numbers. How do you know this?

How does this compare to a being like God who knows everything?
 
I wish I said something that profound:p

For all intents and purposes we have free will, but the common use for this term is to give blame, I see problems with that.
What I meant by 'we can't decide what those choices will be' is, you can't decide what type of choices you as a person will make. Hitler(he gets used to much I know) didn't choose to make choices that are "bad". He felt they were right for some reason. Just like we might feel its right to help an old lady up thats fallen down. What makes us better? Nothing, we all follow what naturally "feels" right. Thats why I don't think we have free will.
If you have free will couldn't you change your beliefs relgious people? Couldn't you suddenly "decide" to stop believing in god and really mean it?
 
horesman42

I think you're being intentionaly stupid.


It is mentioned in the Quran that the universe is expanding and is not constant. Does that mean that if it does not exist today then god does not know all.....It doesn't all have to be known today, it's being formulated by the all powerfull.

God is testing his protype creation in a known environment. Some will flunk and some will pass. God is all knowing of the traits that will make you flunk and the traits that will make you pass.....and in judgement, free will is going to be gone from humans, so there god will be ALL KNOWING. God allows a little bit of respite out of his mercy for the decision to be make....That's pretty darn good knowledge.
 
Heflores

I'd say YOU'RE being UNINTENTIONALLY STUPID, which is worse eh?

You act as if the Quran has bearing on something besides your emotional problems. That is retarded and you should know it, but you cling to your bullshit value system as if your presumption should be mandated by the fictional deity you force your poor mind to clutch to becuase you're too weak to face possiblities other than that which you attempt to push from the fictional recesses of your somewhat limited brain, into the reality we all supposedly "share". I realize this is compulsory to your weak little mind, but if you're ever interested in removing your stupidity, you'll have to realize that your endeavor (as described above) is your prison of idiocy.
 
Wesmorris

I've trying to intentionally avoid that monkey's ass by the name of Wesmorris, but it's not entirely possible on this site even with my excellent maneuvers.

And let me see, you will help me remove my stupidity, so I start looking and acting more like you....No thanks...I prefer human race.
 
Re: Wesmorris

Originally posted by heflores
I've trying to intentionally avoid that monkey's ass by the name of Wesmorris, but it's not entirely possible on this site even with my excellent maneuvers.
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Eh, I'll ignore you if you'd like. I do prefer the attempt to eventually stimulate some cranial activity... but if you can't handle it, ignore ME eh? Hehe, apparently, your maneuvers aren't very "excellent" then, right? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by heflores

And let me see, you will help me remove my stupidity, so I start looking and acting more like you.
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I really could care less whom you act like, you really shouldn't settle for less than acting like YOU. My only purpose is to learn and teach. Apparently you're not interested in either, as you could apparently learn from me. Doesn't mean you should ACT like me. I'm kind of a jerk, but I can be quite humorous. Oh, and uh.. you really shouldn't front like you're miss fucking innocent either, you're as big of a jerk as I am I'd say, so..... *shrug* I guess we're even eh?
Originally posted by heflores

...No thanks...I prefer human race.
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Oh, so now you attempt to dehumanize me? Did you learn how to do that with your silly book? How very human of you. *rolleyes*

If you can't handle a superior argument, you shouldn't go looking for it. Especially if you can't even recognize it when it's right in your face. That's sad.
 
Re: Re: Wesmorris

Originally posted by wesmorris

Oh, so now you attempt to dehumanize me? Did you learn how to do that with your silly book? How very human of you. *rolleyes*

If you can't handle a superior argument, you shouldn't go looking for it. Especially if you can't even recognize it when it's right in your face. That's sad.
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Fine Wes, you're cool. Now stop calling my damn book silly. Only I can do that.
 
heflores,

I think you're being intentionaly stupid.
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So we have to resort to name calling then?

It is mentioned in the Quran that the universe is expanding and is not constant. Does that mean that if it does not exist today then god does not know all.....It doesn't all have to be known today, it's being formulated by the all powerfull.
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Wait a minute here I didn't ever say anything about the Quran. I don't know the Quran well enough to quote from it, if that's what you mean for being stupid then I guess I am.

All I'm simply saying if you believe God is all-knowing then he knows everything. And therefore knows what your going to do before you do it! This is pure logic!

If he doesn't know then he's not all-knowing.

I have no idea what your saying about the universe not existing. Of course it exists we're all here aren't we?

God is testing his protype creation in a known environment. Some will flunk and some will pass. God is all knowing of the traits that will make you flunk and the traits that will make you pass.....
Click to expand...

Then logically he must also know who will fail and who will pass.
 
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