Is there a simple way to detect gravitational waves?

I see that I posted "LIFO" rather than "LIGO" in a few posts. Sorry about that. I'd like to think I replaced "Gravitational" with "Failed", but actually, that misspelling was just my own brain fart.

Kip Thorne was the guy in charge of LIGO all these years; no wonder they detected nothing. If they are waiting for gravitational waves from a distant black hole collapse, well, that's just going to be a whole lot weaker interaction than the gravity waves from moving solar system planets, isn't it? In the movie Interstellar, it kicks off with a gravity wave clearing off a bookshelf. Come on, Kip; a COHERENT gravity wave? What kind of junk science is that? Any gravity wave strong enough to clear a bookshelf and obeying the inverse square law (real science) is going to cause a heck of an Earthquake; perhaps not even a survivable one.

Miller's planet would be locked with one face always toward the black hole, the same way the Earth's moon does. Any "wave" would present as a stationary tide; not something that moved. Finally, "exotic matter" with "negative energy" would not be any more effective than ordinary matter to thread open a wormhole. Entanglement does nothing to change the fact that anything with mass/energy cannot exceed the speed of light, even in a wormhole.

It is this kind of layered speculation that has always been the hallmark of Kip Thorne physics. The presentation he gave in 2006 on GR from 1905 to present was a joke starting from the title. SR was developed and presented in 1905. GR in its correct form wasn't developed until 1914, some eight years later.

I might have brain farts, but Kip Thorne's are worse because people seem to believe that he knows what he is talking about.

His math and his physics is anchored in absolute space and time, as I have noted elsewhere. He is fortunate in at least one respect; his wormhole crackpottery at least made for some really great fiction and screenplay drama.
 
Could this thread be moved to the pseudoscience section or the cesspool, it is embarrassing to have this in the science section.
 
I agree. Danshawen appears to have some kind of personal grudge with Kip Thorne and that's all he rants about. It's tedious and really belongs elsewhere. His opinions have nothing to do with science but seem based in personal incredulity and an inability to understand the theory.
 
jcc said:
remember when nasa bomb the moon, the moon rings for a long time? that's was the impact force made the moon vibrating.

the sun itself cannot vibrate without force apply on it.
Click to expand...

on a second thought.

when the moon was ringing from that impact, it produced gravitational waves, mostly absorbed by earth, then the near by matters. the nasa spaceship detected that gravity/shock waves, otherwise how do they know the moon is ringing?

similar to this thread suggested, bell 1 ringing gives off energy to bell 2 without emit photons?

is photon/em wave just mistake interpretation of gravitational wave?
 
AlexG said:
I agree. Danshawen appears to have some kind of personal grudge with Kip Thorne and that's all he rants about. It's tedious and really belongs elsewhere. His opinions have nothing to do with science but seem based in personal incredulity and an inability to understand the theory.
Click to expand...

It's about 50/50. Half the folks (including some close friends of Kip Thorne) say that his science as portrayed in Interstellar is bad. Others (source: BBC Science News)recommend that the movie Interstellar be shown in schools to inspire the next generation of scientists.

One other thing I wish I had mentioned about the bad science in this movie: the amount of ionizing radiation anywhere within tens of light years of a rotating black hole would be lethal. It's why we all are able to live (for the time being) in the galactic suburbs.

Most folks have a much lower threshold of scientific disbelief than I do, and this is what a screenplay like Interstellar depends on.
 
Gravitational radiation that is detectable is when two massive dense bodies
jcc said:
remember when nasa bomb the moon, the moon rings for a long time? that's was the impact force made the moon vibrating.

the sun itself cannot vibrate without force apply on it.
Click to expand...


No, I do not remember....Do you have some details? Of course you don't, because it never happened.
You have probably been reading some nonsensical pseudoscience crap.
What NASA did was conduct a mission called LCROSS which entailed crashing a space craft into the Moon, to find any water ice.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LCROSS/main/oct_21_media_telecon.html
LRO Diviner Lunar Radiometer Experiment surface temperature map of the south polar region of the moon. The data were acquired during September and October 2009 when south polar temperatures were close to their annual maximum values. The map shows the locations of several intensely cold impact craters that are potential cold traps for water ice as well as a range of other icy compounds commonly observed in comets. The approximate maximum temperatures at which these compounds would be frozen in place for more than a billion years is shown next to the scale on the right. The LCROSS spacecraft was targeted to impact one of the coldest of these craters, and many of these compounds were observed in the ejecta plume.
Image credit: UCLA/NASA/Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif./Goddard
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

And of course it was not to hear any ring, or measure any gravitational waves.
The effects of what they did would have no more effect on the Moon than a fly slowing a speeding train after hitting it head on......Or for that matter the effects of the earth's ringing or movement after dropping a thermo-nuclear weapon.
All you have spouted is more jcc inspired bullshit.
jcc said:
the sun itself cannot vibrate without force apply on it
Click to expand...

The Sun does not vibrate to any semblance that you are imagining.
It does though have a very subtle pulsation.
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2003/17jan_solcon/

Again any gravitational waves produced by such slow pulsating, would be near immeasurable, and the reasons why it took so long to discover.
Again despite jcc's version of pseudoscience, gravitational waves are very hard to detect.
Perhaps you are ignorant of LIGO?
http://www.ligo.caltech.edu/#
But we do have very good indirect evidence of gravity waves extracted from data from the orbital parameters of the Hulse-Taylor binary system.
 
AlexG said:
But it seems your problems with Thorne long predates the movie.
Click to expand...

He certainly has a problem with Kip, and some of his intense ranting defies belief, even though Thorne makes it absolutely clear that in the area of physics about wormholes and time travel, it is just speculative scenarios.
 
1. sun light is photon emitted by electrons change orbitals in hot atoms on the sun.

2. sun light is gravitational waves produced by vibrating hot atoms on the sun.

which one is logically/factly bullshit?
 
jcc said:
1. sun light is photon emitted by electrons change orbitals in hot atoms on the sun.

2. sun light is gravitational waves produced by vibrating hot atoms on the sun.

which one is logically/factly bullshit?
Click to expand...
#2.

It's #2 in more ways than one.
 
AlexG said:
But it seems your problems with Thorne long predates the movie.
Click to expand...
Yes, I've been disgusted with Thorne's description of threading wormholes with negative energy exotic matter for a very long time. It's almost as bad as an Aristotelian gravity thought experiment that attempts to make larger rocks fall more slowly by tethering them to a lot of smaller stones of the same density.

As soon as Thorne coupled exotic matter transport to entanglement phenomenon (wormholes), he ran afoul even of his own wild claims. Even exotic matter cannot exceed the speed of light for bulk transport, inside a wormhole or outside of it, but entanglement itself definitely does. If you have particles already entangled on opposite sides of the universe, you might be able to communicate, but "threading" an entanglement phenomenon with matter is going to take at least as long as it would take to transport ordinary matter at speeds near but less than c over the same expanse. Even if the exotic matter were itself initially entangled, it would not solve the basic problem of transport.

I see no good reason to expect a wormhole to persist over a duration such as the time it would take for a stream of matter to traverse the universe, or if it did, we would already have been able observe something like what Thorne has predicted in the two papers he has now published to accompany his book and this movie. Evidently, we'd look for something that resembled what Interstellar depicts. Watch for it; its discovery will no doubt be announced any day now.

No one I have yet discussed this topic with has been able to explain where such wild ideas as Thorne's are coming from. Science discussions of the physics of Star Trek or even Harry Potter just naturally seem to make a lot more sense in most respects. The pseudoscience of alchemy made more sense than tipping a vial of exotic matter into a wormhole. At least identifying pure gold was something everyone could agree on.

How much exotic matter would it take? Entangled or not? How long would it take for the exotic matter stream "thread" to bridge the ends of the wormhole? How much exotic matter, exactly, would that require? No, he answered no such questions in a manner satisfactory to a physics exam or thesis grade above C-.
 
Last edited:
jcc said:
fair enough, opinion various.
so far 1:1, you are not winning yet. any 1 else support you?
Click to expand...
Not really.....If you don't know by now, many people here ignore damn ratbags and fools.
And my opinion is obvious from previous posts.
In actual fact it's about 12:1 since you are playing games.
 
Last edited:
fact is atoms on the sun do vibrate producing gravitational waves.

what fact supports electrons change orbitals emitting photons?
 
danshawen said:
Yes, I've been disgusted with Thorne's description of threading wormholes with negative energy exotic matter for a very long time. It's almost as bad as an Aristotelian gravity thought experiment that attempts to make larger rocks fall more slowly by tethering them to a lot of smaller stones of the same density.

As soon as Thorne coupled exotic matter transport to entanglement phenomenon (wormholes), he ran afoul even of his own wild claims. Even exotic matter cannot exceed the speed of light for bulk transport, inside a wormhole or outside of it, but entanglement itself definitely does. If you have particles already entangled on opposite sides of the universe, you might be able to communicate, but "threading" an entanglement phenomenon with matter is going to take at least as long as it would take to transport ordinary matter at speeds near but less than c over the same expanse. Even if the exotic matter were itself initially entangled, it would not solve the basic problem of transport.

I see no good reason to expect a wormhole to persist over a duration such as the time it would take for a stream of matter to traverse the universe, or if it did, we would already have been able observe something like what Thorne has predicted in the two papers he has now published to accompany his book and this movie. Evidently, we'd look for something that resembled what Interstellar depicts. Watch for it; its discovery will no doubt be announced any day now.

No one I have yet discussed this topic with has been able to explain where such wild ideas as Thorne's are coming from. Science discussions of the physics of Star Trek or even Harry Potter just naturally seem to make a lot more sense in most respects. The pseudoscience of alchemy made more sense than tipping a vial of exotic matter into a wormhole. At least identifying pure gold was something everyone could agree on.

How much exotic matter would it take? Entangled or not? How long would it take for the exotic matter stream "thread" to bridge the ends of the wormhole? How much exotic matter, exactly, would that require? No, he answered no such questions in a manner satisfactory to a physics exam or thesis grade above C-.
Click to expand...
All the knowledge in the world is of no use to fools. The Eagles. If he wrote it down for you you wouldn't understand it. Pretending you would is what you're doing. Fool.
 
danshawen said:
I see that I posted "LIFO" rather than "LIGO" in a few posts. Sorry about that. I'd like to think I replaced "Gravitational" with "Failed", but actually, that misspelling was just my own brain fart.

Kip Thorne was the guy in charge of LIGO all these years; no wonder they detected nothing. If they are waiting for gravitational waves from a distant black hole collapse, well, that's just going to be a whole lot weaker interaction than the gravity waves from moving solar system planets, isn't it? In the movie Interstellar, it kicks off with a gravity wave clearing off a bookshelf. Come on, Kip; a COHERENT gravity wave? What kind of junk science is that? Any gravity wave strong enough to clear a bookshelf and obeying the inverse square law (real science) is going to cause a heck of an Earthquake; perhaps not even a survivable one.

Miller's planet would be locked with one face always toward the black hole, the same way the Earth's moon does. Any "wave" would present as a stationary tide; not something that moved. Finally, "exotic matter" with "negative energy" would not be any more effective than ordinary matter to thread open a wormhole. Entanglement does nothing to change the fact that anything with mass/energy cannot exceed the speed of light, even in a wormhole.

It is this kind of layered speculation that has always been the hallmark of Kip Thorne physics. The presentation he gave in 2006 on GR from 1905 to present was a joke starting from the title. SR was developed and presented in 1905. GR in its correct form wasn't developed until 1914, some eight years later.

I might have brain farts, but Kip Thorne's are worse because people seem to believe that he knows what he is talking about.

His math and his physics is anchored in absolute space and time, as I have noted elsewhere. He is fortunate in at least one respect; his wormhole crackpottery at least made for some really great fiction and screenplay drama.
Click to expand...
paddoboy said:
He certainly has a problem with Kip, and some of his intense ranting defies belief, even though Thorne makes it absolutely clear that in the area of physics about wormholes and time travel, it is just speculative scenarios.
Click to expand...
A lot of strong field physics is esoteric. That's why it's fun. For danshawen he must feel intimidated by esoteric fun derivations from gravitational physics.
 
jcc said:
fact is atoms on the sun do vibrate producing gravitational waves.

what fact supports electrons change orbitals emitting photons?
Click to expand...
No that's childish pseudoscience bullshit.
Trolling again?
paddoboy said:
Gravitational radiation that is detectable is when two massive dense bodies



No, I do not remember....Do you have some details? Of course you don't, because it never happened.
You have probably been reading some nonsensical pseudoscience crap.
What NASA did was conduct a mission called LCROSS which entailed crashing a space craft into the Moon, to find any water ice.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LCROSS/main/oct_21_media_telecon.html
LRO Diviner Lunar Radiometer Experiment surface temperature map of the south polar region of the moon. The data were acquired during September and October 2009 when south polar temperatures were close to their annual maximum values. The map shows the locations of several intensely cold impact craters that are potential cold traps for water ice as well as a range of other icy compounds commonly observed in comets. The approximate maximum temperatures at which these compounds would be frozen in place for more than a billion years is shown next to the scale on the right. The LCROSS spacecraft was targeted to impact one of the coldest of these craters, and many of these compounds were observed in the ejecta plume.
Image credit: UCLA/NASA/Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif./Goddard
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

And of course it was not to hear any ring, or measure any gravitational waves.
The effects of what they did would have no more effect on the Moon than a fly slowing a speeding train after hitting it head on......Or for that matter the effects of the earth's ringing or movement after dropping a thermo-nuclear weapon.
All you have spouted is more jcc inspired bullshit.





The Sun does not vibrate to any semblance that you are imagining.
It does though have a very subtle pulsation.
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2003/17jan_solcon/

Again any gravitational waves produced by such slow pulsating, would be near immeasurable, and the reasons why it took so long to discover.
Again despite jcc's version of pseudoscience, gravitational waves are very hard to detect.
Perhaps you are ignorant of LIGO?
http://www.ligo.caltech.edu/#
But we do have very good indirect evidence of gravity waves extracted from data from the orbital parameters of the Hulse-Taylor binary system.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top