Is the theory of punctuated equilibrium a gamechanger for evolutionary biology?

Also worth noting that PE has been around since 1865, long before Eldredge and Gould. I think the latter fellows didn't want to mention Pierre Tremaux as his work was tainted with some Spencerian ideas about race and human progress that didn't hold up well. I can understand them not wanting to make too many parallels to Tremaux, as they developed their own PE theory.

 
Never been sure if there is any sense in which GR "overthrows" Newtonian. Certainly the instrumentalist view is that it's an upgrade to handle high velocities and large masses and so on. But are there really any epistemologists out there who would have such a narrow definition of truth that they couldn't acknowledge that GR is more a patch than a contradiction? In your Smith and Jones contention, I would say Smith is probably just wrong and should concede Jones's point. Overthrown, after all, isn't all that ambiguous in its meaning - it sorta means tossed in the wastebasket, no longer of use. Overthrown dictators don't hang around the palace dispensing helpful nuggets of wisdom. But that clearly isn't the case with Newtonian fizz.

Similarly, punk eek seems to also work as an upgrade. Corrects some of the timetables, expands the selection concept from individual phenotypes to the character of the species as a whole, points out acceleration effects of a rapid ecological change, makes sense of the rapid adaptation of bacteria sharing plasmids, provides a useful framework for cladogenesis, etc. Not to be all harmonic convergence and singing Kumbaya together, but the conceptual expansion from micro to macroevolution just seems like a natural development and not one where people have to get upset about holistic species-level effects as some sort of theoretical coup. It's a bit like cognitive science where signals exchanged between neurons can provide some explanatory basics while acknowledging other functional levels with holistic brain processes like intention, meaning, and the unflagging love of Louisa May AllCat. (her official moniker)
Well to be fair GR is a radical rethinking of all the Newtonian assumptions, right back to the very nature of space and time itself, so it is an utterly different model. Punctuated equilibrium on the other hand simply adds some extra detail on ways in which the basic Darwinian mechanism can operate, e.g. over irregular timeframes as well as smoothly, at sub-population as well as single organism level, and so on.

But I agree that to say GR "overthrows" Newtonian gravitation is really just histrionics, given that 95% of physics and engineering applications continue to use the Newtonian model to this day. It's nothing like the way the phlogiston or caloric theories, say, were completely discarded and replaced. It's just that the Newtonian model is recognised as an approximation, which however is far simpler to work with.

We chemists work with approximate models all the time so I can't see what all the sound and fury is about, really. :)
 
Never been sure if there is any sense in which GR "overthrows" Newtonian. Certainly the instrumentalist view is that it's an upgrade to handle high velocities and large masses and so on. But are there really any epistemologists out there who would have such a narrow definition of truth that they couldn't acknowledge that GR is more a patch than a contradiction? In your Smith and Jones contention, I would say Smith is probably just wrong and should concede Jones's point. Overthrown, after all, isn't all that ambiguous in its meaning - it sorta means tossed in the wastebasket, no longer of use. Overthrown dictators don't hang around the palace dispensing helpful nuggets of wisdom. But that clearly isn't the case with Newtonian fizz.

and

It doesn't [= GR doesn't overthrow Newtonian]. Scientists use hyperbole we should be used to that.


I invite readers to take another look at post 260 in this thread:



"Now, assuming these writers can be trusted (can they?), it does not sound at all like the switch -- or the revolution, if you will-- from Newtonian physics to relativistic physics was cumulative. We are told not, for example, that Einstein "built on" Newton's work but, quite to the contrary, that he toppled it, he overthrew it, and destroyed it. We are told not that Einstein's theory complements or adds to Newton's theory, but it contradicts Newton's theory. We are told that Newton's theory was shown to be false; it turned out to be a "figment of a false Newtonian perspective"."


One can, of course, always respond that these physicists don't know what they're talking about, or that they're engaging in hyperbole for dramatic effect. Rather you than me.


Since we're here, one for my baby, and one more for the road . . .


"The new understanding of electromagnetism brought about by Faraday and Maxwell between 1830 and 1870 led to the new world view of special relativity, and Einstein's quest for the unification of gravity with special relativity led to general relativity and to the overthrow of Newtonian gravity."

- Clifford M. Will, essay "Experimental gravitation from Newton's Principia to Einstein's general relativity", found in "300 Years of Gravitation", p121



"For any educated man, whether or not a professional scientist, the name of Albert Einstein calls to mind the intellectual effort and genius which overturned the most traditional notions of physics and culminated in the establishment of the relativity of the notions of space and time, the inertia of energy, and an interpretation of gravitational forces which is in some sort purely geometrical. [ . . . ]

Nevertheless, if most of his articles were short, there was not one among them that did not contain marvelous new ideas destined to revolutionize science . . . [ . . . ]

A daring hypothesis [special relativity] indeed, before which the perspicacious mind of Lorentz recoiled! It carried in its wake, in fact, an abandonment of the ideas, traditional since Newton, regarding the absolute nature of space and time . . . "

- Louis de Broglie, "A General Survey of the Scientific Work of Albert Einstein" (in "Albert Einstein: Philosopher-Scientist", pp109-112)
 
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Similarly, punk eek seems to also work as an upgrade. Corrects some of the timetables, expands the selection concept from individual phenotypes to the character of the species as a whole, points out acceleration effects of a rapid ecological change, makes sense of the rapid adaptation of bacteria sharing plasmids, provides a useful framework for cladogenesis, etc. Not to be all harmonic convergence and singing Kumbaya together, but the conceptual expansion from micro to macroevolution just seems like a natural development and not one where people have to get upset about holistic species-level effects as some sort of theoretical coup. It's a bit like cognitive science where signals exchanged between neurons can provide some explanatory basics while acknowledging other functional levels with holistic brain processes like intention, meaning, and the unflagging love of Louisa May AllCat. (her official moniker)


The Modern Synthesis, as characterized by Ernst Mayr (see post 74) . . .

"The proponents of the synthetic theory maintain that all evolution is due to the accumulation of small genetic changes, guided by natural selection, and that transspecific evolution is nothing but an extrapolation and magnification of the events that take place within populations and species."


If another scientist -- e.g. an advocate of PE or evo-devo -- asserts the exact opposite (i.e. macroevolution does not reduce to microevolution) do you think this is better described as an extension of Mayr's view or a contradiction thereof?
 
Here's what an extension looks like:


TheVat: "Neo-Darwinian theory accounts for all cases of microevolution."

Louisa May AllCat: "Neo-Darwinian theory not only accounts for all cases of microevolution, but all cases of macroevolution too. Purr!"
 
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@ TheVat and Pinball. How about this . . .


Creationist: "God created the universe."

Scientist: "No, he didn't."


An extension or a contradiction?
 
Maybe it's just paranoia but somehow I always get the feeling I'm viewed as the "bad guy" in places such as this -- the person who tries to discredit or downplay science -- when I'm simply reporting verbatim what the very finest scientists say themselves.

Wish I had a kitten lol.

I would say a more accurate appraisal of the scenario is that you guys, by contrast, are distorting the actual situation to make science look as good and as continuous as possible.

But hey, it's understandable. The last person in the world you're going to get an objective appraisal of Frank Sinatra (say) from is me.

We love ya, Frank!! :)




From another thread . . .

Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest, li li li...

- TheVat
 
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Two things:

First a little clarification in my previous response to Yazata . . .

Oh, one more thing, Yazata. Yes, both PE and evo-devo challenge the traditional view that macroevolution is nothing but microevolution writ large. But for different reasons.

The evo-devo people invoke macromutations, as included in your post, that is, radical change in a single generation.

The PE people, on the other hand, make no mention of macromutations, at least that I've seen, indeed they get peeved when their views are conflated with Auric Goldfinger's "hopeful monsters". The reason they reject the reduction of macroevolution to microevolution is, as already discussed, they believe it's not just traditional Darwinian selection acting on individual organism "all the way up." Species are selected too.

Assuming I've got this right again.


S. J. Gould again ("Punc Eq", p338) . . .

We have never changed this conviction, and we have always tried to correct any confusion of scaling between saltation and punctuation, even in papers written during the supposed apogee of our revolutionary ardor, during illusory stage 2 of the urban legend [i.e. what Gould feels was the {sometimes) deliberate popular strawman distortion of PE - axo]. For example, under the heading of "The relationship of punctuated equilibrium to macromutation," I wrote in 1982: "Punctuated equilibrium is not a theory of macromutation . . . it is not a theory of any genetic process . . . It is a theory about larger-scale patterns -- the geometry of speciation in geological time. As with ecologically rapid modes of speciation, punctuated equilibrium welcomes macromutation as a source for the initiation of species: the faster the better. But punctuated equilibrium clearly does not require or imply macromutation, since it was formulated as the expected geological consequence of Mayrian allopatry.


In short, according to Gould, PE is silent on the matter of macromutation. But if the evo-devo people happen to be onto something, that's just swell too.




Second, I refer readers back to C C's post #67, especially the final paragraph thereof.

I gave the post a "like" myself because I thought it was carefully considered, well written, and thought provoking, as C C's posts invariably are. However, woe betide any reader (lol) who infers from my "liking" of a post to my endorsement of the content.

On reflection, I now wish to pose to C C the following. Might your remarks be fairly summarized thus? . . .

"Those scientists who affirm the falsifiability of scientific theories -- thus speciously demarcating science from non-science -- while knowing that they are not falsifiable at all, are indeed being dishonest, but their dishonesty is to some extent justifiable."

If not, please elaborate.
 
And while we're at it . . .

The social or "human" sciences can potentially sport a host of items that are too ambiguous to be subjected to robust refutation. (Like the humanities, many of its practitioners are often fans of everything intellectually descended from Marx and Freud -- a couple of the very things Popper selected as examples of dogmatic pseudoscience.)

And the "hard" or "natural" sciences are different in this regard? Is general relativity, for example, subject to a "robust refutation"? What would that look like? Is it not already wildly at odds with observational evidence -- requiring patches such as dark matter to maintain agreement with the evidence?



Since we're here, I'd point out in passing, as C C in surely already aware, that the abandonment -- not to be confused with the (mythical?) definitive falsification of a major scientific theory -- rarely, if ever, happens in the manner implied by those who speak of falsification.

What I mean is this: We're usually told that theories are compared against the evidence, and if the theory is at odds with what is observed then the theory has been falsified and must be abandoned.

But as the history of science bears witness time and time again, a major theory is never abandoned -- regardless of its "fit" with the observable data -- until something else comes along. What typically happens is that the old theory will continue to be defended until no one is left alive to defend it. Those who speak of definitive falsifications, then, have to address the awkward question of why apparently competent scientists continue to defend until their last gasp a theory that supposedly has been shown to be false.



In summary, then, what leads to the abandonment of a (major) theory is not its failure to fit the facts, let alone a definitive falsification, but rather that something else comes along that a growing number of scientists are attracted to, and who proceed to jump theoretical ships.
 
One can, of course, always respond that these physicists don't know what they're talking about,
Physicists know what they are talking about. You can use Newton quite happily for a plethora of classical applications and you can get through A level applied mathematics without mentioning Einstein.
If I fire a cannon with mass m at a specific angle and specific force you can work out lots of other stuff just using a bit of algebra and calculus. That still applies today.
We derived gamma in class but that was a purely algebraic exercise not a conceptual one AND it was not Einstein who first did that.
So why do we need Einstein and why was his ideas such a revolution?
If we are on our little planet doing little planet things like firing cannons and playing with distance velocity acceleration in our classical world then we can use his equations to make predictions. We can assume that gravity is this mysterious force time and space are fixed because our world works that way.

For Einstein gravity was not a force it was a feature of the geometry of space time, this is a profoundly different approach.

Time is fixed for Newton all over the universe not so with Einstein.

Space is just a huge expanse of nothing where all the celestial bodies reside for Newton, the same everywhere.
Space is curved by massive bodies in the universe for Einstein.
Time dilation, length contraction at relativistic velocities would have sounded like magic to Newton.

None of that affects my calculations for cannon balls.

Context is everything.
 
Hi again, Pinball

There are two senses in which it might be said that Einstein overthrew Newton:


O1: Einstein overthrew Newton. Since Einstein came along physicists, by and large, no longer use Newtonian theory any more (for sending people into space, etc)

O2: Einstein overthrew Newton. Since Einstein came along physicists, by and large, no longer believe that Newtonian theory is true.



No one, except perhaps the totally ignorant, asserts O1. Good thing too because it is obviously not true. Your talk of cannonballs and such, then, is quite redundant. We all know this.

And since O1 is so obviously untrue, clearly when leading physicists speak of Einstein "destroying" and "toppling" and "overthrowing" (etc.) Newton, it must be O2 that they have in mind. To suggest otherwise would be to insult their intelligence.

The only sensible way to understand physicists' assertion that Einstein overthrew Newton, then, is O2 -- we can forget all about O1 -- and it is to O2 that we now turn . . .


Do you agree with O2? Did Einsteinian relativistic physics overthrow classical Newtonian mechanics?
 
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Hi again, Pinball

There are two senses in which it might be said that Einstein overthrew Newton:


O1: Einstein overthrew Newton. Since Einstein came along physicists, by and large, no longer use Newtonian theory any more (for sending people into space, etc)

O2: Einstein overthrew Newton. Since Einstein came along physicists, by and large, no longer believe that Newtonian theory is true.



No one, except perhaps the totally ignorant, asserts O1. Good thing too because it is obviously not true. Your talk of cannonballs and such, then, is quite redundant. We all know this.

And since O1 is so obviously untrue, clearly when leading physicists speak of Einstein "destroying" and "toppling" and "overthrowing" (etc.) Newton, it must be O2 that they have in mind. To suggest otherwise would be to insult their intelligence.

The only sensible way to understand the assertion that Einstein overthrew Newton, then, is O2 -- we can forget all about O1 -- and it is to O2 that we now turn . . .


Do you agree with O2? Did Einsteinian relativistic physics overthrow classical Newtonian mechanics?
I think this is a different thread. James R Could you split off or should I just start a new thread? I dont want to derail this one.
 
Just start a new thread, if you feel that way. I find these thread splits a real pain, never knowing in which thread to look for something that was posted previously.

Personally, I don't mind meandering a bit, and having everything in the same place. The topics are not entirely unrelated anyway. Does PE (purport to) overthrow certain elements of the Modern Synthesis? vs. Does Einstein overthrow Newton?
 
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Physicists know what they are talking about. You can use Newton quite happily for a plethora of classical applications and you can get through A level applied mathematics without mentioning Einstein.
If I fire a cannon with mass m at a specific angle and specific force you can work out lots of other stuff just using a bit of algebra and calculus. That still applies today.
We derived gamma in class but that was a purely algebraic exercise not a conceptual one AND it was not Einstein who first did that.
So why do we need Einstein and why was his ideas such a revolution?
If we are on our little planet doing little planet things like firing cannons and playing with distance velocity acceleration in our classical world then we can use his equations to make predictions. We can assume that gravity is this mysterious force time and space are fixed because our world works that way.

For Einstein gravity was not a force it was a feature of the geometry of space time, this is a profoundly different approach.

Time is fixed for Newton all over the universe not so with Einstein.

Space is just a huge expanse of nothing where all the celestial bodies reside for Newton, the same everywhere.
Space is curved by massive bodies in the universe for Einstein.
Time dilation, length contraction at relativistic velocities would have sounded like magic to Newton.

None of that affects my calculations for cannon balls.

Context is everything.
Yes, studying science has something in common with uncovering successive layers of an onion, or opening a series of Russian dolls.

You have been discussing GR/SR/Newtonian mechanics but it's the same thing with quantum theory. At the most basic level one thinks of atoms with shells of electrons, at school level even sometimes picturing them in orbits as per the Bohr model. That's good enough to account for the Periodic Table. Next one learns about wave-particle duality and the concept of probability clouds and orbitals. That's good enough for a decent picture of chemical bonding. Next, one proceeds at universty level to things like the Fourier series explanation of the uncertainty principle (in the wave picture), and the semiclassical picture of angular momentum, to account for atomic spectra. And then if one chooses to do so one gets to the real QM concept of operators extracting observable properties from the wave function. And that's not the end. The real physicists go on from there to QED, Feynman diagrams and the QFT field picture we were discussing earlier.

All of these models give glimpses of reality at the atomic scale, but one gets used to the idea that almost whatever you picture in your mind, or say in a description, is not the whole story. There is always more, if you are feeling sufficiently pedantic. Perhaps unlike some people trying to apply philosophy naïvely, scientists are capable of holding these different descriptions of physical reality in their minds and working with different ones to suit the phenomenon at hand, recognising they are using approximations as they do so. Trying to force-fit "true" and "false" labels to these pictures is to miss the point.

Needless to say, what all these models share is a degree of explanatory and predictive power concerning observations of nature. A pseudoscience like ID or astrology is incapable of that.
 
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Perhaps unlike some people trying to apply philosophy naïvely, scientists are capable of holding these different descriptions of physical reality in their minds and working with different ones to suit the phenomenon at hand, recognising they are using approximations as they do so. Trying to force-fit "true" and "false" labels to these pictures is to miss the point.

Isn't it remarkable in these forums how we keep learning that world class physicists such as Albert Einstein, David Bohm, Kip Thorne, Louis de Broglie and Brian Greene "apply philosophy naively" and "miss the point" while our regular posters such as exchemist -- untrained in both physics and philosophy (is this correct?) -- do not.

Readers are advised to disregard everything the aforementioned gentlemen said, there was no "overthrowing", "toppling" or "destruction", and focus on exchemist instead. He'll keep us all straight.
 
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