Is Terrorism Ever justified?

DarkThorn said:
What do you suggest these people do to get back what rightfully belongs to them?

The law? Legal means of redressing wrongs? Monetary restitutions? Diplomacy? ...... Hunger strikes? ...fuckin' n' makin' so many babies that the world will be overcome by that race/culture?

DarkThorn said:
If i was to land an army on the shores of America tomorrow... They would take up arms and fight.

Agreed. But would Americans take off and blow up innocent Indonesians in retaliation for YOU invading America? See? I think we would try to kill YOU and your invading army ....but I don't think that Americans would blow up innocent people in some other, neutral nation, do you???

DarkThorn said:
Is there no group in the world you feel for?

None who actively and willfully attack innocent, unsuspecting people ...especially if their people of another nation somewhere else in the world! No one, no group, however strong their case, should be permitted or encouraged or supported who willfully kill innocent, unsuspecting men, women and children (or people at a wedding reception!).

DarkThorn said:
All of them have been fighting for a long time in order to gain their countries freedom back for the people.

You should read the article in the Nat'l Geographic magazine about Chechnya. By far, the greater majority of Chechens just want the fighting and killing to stop! How long can a people, a culture fight and die? How long can a people, a culture fight and die and live under those harsh, terrible conditions ...day after day, year after year, century after century?

DarkThorn said:
You call terrorists murderers, i call them soldiers, protectors, defenders, liberal troops, true patriots.

Call them whatever you want ....but when a "soldier, protector, defender, liberal troop, true patriot" resorts to the mass murder of innocent, unsuspecting civilians and men, women and children at wedding receptions, then to me, they're the lowliest group of people on Earth!

DarkThorn said:
Imagine tomorrow you woke up to find your country had been taken over by China... Do you accept this and get on with it.

No, I wouldn't accept it. I'd go get some explosives, hook it to my body, go to Bangladesh and blow up a bunch of innocent, unsuspecting civilians ...especially targetting wedding receptions and elementary schools with lots of children!!! Boy, that'd really show those damned Chinese that we mean business, huh?????

DarkThorn said:
I do not hate Americans but i see America take over the world every day and there is nothing i can do about it.

What nations of the world have Americans "taken over" in the last gazillion years? Name all of them and give me good reasons to hate America, too. By the way, as you name those conquered nations, you might also make a list of the nations that America has protected in wars and conflicts. It might give you some perspective.

DarkThorn said:
Let these groups have what they need and they will stop.

And then we do the same for the next group? ...and the next group? And what of the gazillion groups thereafter? Do we just keep giving in to threats of violence and blackmail? ...no matter who or what they want? And you think that will bring "peace" to anywhere?

Baron Max
 
Ok for one the terrorists are not just attacking random countries. They are attacking any country helping those they have a grievance with.

Ok so alot of people want peace but that doesn't mean they don't want freedom. The reason they want peace is because there husbands, brothers, sisters, mothers or fathers are all dying in a war they shouldn't have to be fighting.

America has taken over nations, not by ruling them legally but by forcing them to their knees or conducting 'shock and awe' attacks. They might not come across as ruling as such but they are still changing the world when they have no right to step in and change it. No country has that right. We can argue about this forever if you want but what i will do now is go and research all of this so i am well and truly informed then i will return with a good balanced and solid answer. That way our debate is conducted in the proper manner provided you go and do the same.
 
DarkThorn said:
America has taken over nations, not by ruling them legally but by forcing them to their knees or conducting 'shock and awe' attacks.

Name some of those nations of which you speak? I'm not aware of any.

DarkThorn said:
They are attacking any country helping those they have a grievance with.

That's a pretty broad stroke of the brush, ain't it? But even so, even counting that broad brush stroke, how is killing other muslims helping in the war against America? ...killing their own people is helping their cause? (Oh, and what IS their "cause"??? ..especially in light of the fact that YOU claim they're fighting for freedom of Iraq.)

I don't have to research anything ...I'm only asking questions about what you and others have been saying/posting.

Baron Max
 
Ok nations the American military have a presence in - Germany, Panama, Saudi Arabia, Pacific, Indian and Arctic oceans including the Arabian Gulf, Iceland, Italy, Spain, Japan, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Turkey, Korea, Hungary, Great Britain and Ireland those are only some i have knowledge of. I am also assuming because these are military bases that the countries involved are allies.

Then there are the countries America are currently warring with or still have an unwelcome presence in - Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan, etc, etc.

Then there are the countries who have access to American television (propoganda), American Literature (more propoganda), American corporations/businesses, music, etc, etc, etfc......

You may not see it because you are from America but every country in the world is being affected by Americanisation. Our kids are wearing the clothes they see American kids wearing [skaters, goths, punks, whatever], somehow they are managing to sound more American with choice words that keep appearing in every conversation, they want the music and God knows what else. Being from Scotland this is kind of annoying because i am one of those people who would like to drive the Englishness out of our country and return it to its natural state. Where the majority where Gaelic talkers, we had our own identity and language, our own military, government, etc. How can we ever acheive this if the world is being Americanized [note the z and not an s]?

I personally have nothing against Americans unless they have an attitude problem but terrorism towards America will only stop when they stop forcing themselves into arguments between countries half the world away, forcing their propoganda down our throats, threatening smaller countries (Korea, Iran, Iraq, etc), refusing to comply with agreements on nuclear decommissioning, climate change and whatever else, ignoring the views of other countries when they storm off to war, making the countries who do not agree with them seem wrong for doing so. France and Germany were right to tell the Americans to fuck off, if i was running England i would have too.

If your government wants to invade a country and show the world how HUGE and Powerful it is by killing loads of innocent people with its "shock and awe" campaigns then next time, let it go itself. I hate the fact that my Scottish brother and Cousin are both in the "British" army because every time America wants to spread its tail feathers. It is their lives that end up being at risk too. The British Army may aswell just become a regiment or battalion of the American Army.

Seriously, do some rsearch into why terrorist organisations come into being and you will see that most of them were formed last century due to countries being ripped apart by war. Before them there were others. It doesn't end because taking Scotland again for example. It was in the 12th and 13th century we had most of our trouble with England, then after our 'terrorists' defeated the English we had freedom until our King became King of England and decided it would be a good idea to join the countries together as one, some Scottish people thought it was a good idea and many of them (mostly Highlanders) thought it was ridiculous so they fought back and were crushed by scottish and english soldiers. Then to make matters worse (this is all happening in the 18th century now ok) the scottish and english soldiers, lords, clan cheifs, etc started ethnically cleansing the Highlands, taking Land from people only to fill it with deer and ship, murdering as many men, women and children who would not be moved, shipping thousands of us off to America and Canada and for those of us who managed to stay we were forced to change our language to English, stop wearing kilts, playing pipes, etc. So everything we were was taken away from us. People continued trying to fight but we had no army anymore so the small groups who did get together and try were quickly removed. People gave up because there was nowhere near enough support, half of the country wanted the unity with the English and the other half didn't. Scotland has it's terrorist groups but they are not very active. They also have peaceful means of pursuing independence from the English which has been working for a couple of years now. We have the Gaelic language bill which allows us all the opportunity to learn Gaelic as a first language from pre school onwards, we also have our own powers in our own devolved parliament.
Look at the I.R.A. For years all of the terrorism focus in Northern Ireland was on them but in reality they killed less civilians during their campaign against the English than the loyalist U.V.F or the U.D.A. I know it was only this year that the I.R.A decided to disband and decomission but it has been done. They are no longer a terrorist organisation but they have vowed to continue the fight until the English give Northern Ireland back to the Irish.

My point is, no matter how long ago something happened history is always there and people are always fighting for what is right. England had no right to take four seperate countries and make them one, nor did it have the right to take control of half the world. It did and no one will ever give in until the wrongs have been put right. I tell my children all the time that Scotland should be free and even though i'm not about to run off and kill some English politician or civilian i will fight for as long as i am alive by letting people know we are a country of our own, i will spread the word about our language to keep it alive and anything else it takes [voting for the Nationalists, supporting our economy, etc]

I only feel for these groups because i know they feel the same way.The difference is they are here and now. Most of the problems they face are the same problems Scotland faced in the 14th and 18th centuries. I don't feel as strongly as they do because i obviously was not born then but they were and they see their countries being invaded, divided, destroyed by outsiders, foreigners, infidels, whatever you want.

Now i am not making it right for them to blow up a bus full of people or kill a school full of children - these acts are sickening and i will never support that but terrorism can be said to be justified due to the fact that the men or women fighting in such a way are doing so out of desperation, love and hate.

The only way these organisations can work is if they stop the root of their problem. In the case of Al Quaeda it seems that they think America is the problem. I do know that in the 80's when America hated Russia they helped Al Quaeda fight alongside the Chechens by offering money and weapons to fight with. So who really sponsored this group. America itself gave Al Quaeda the means to terrorise a country and now it is screaming about other countries offering that same support. Is there one rule for the Americans and another for the rest of the world or what?
Al Quaeda never liked the fact that American bases were situated throughout the Arab world especially during the early 90's when Iraq invaded Kuwait. Not because the Arabs have some big secret they want to hide but because Americans are alien to them and it doesn't help that they are in their countries with bombs, planes, helicopters, tanks, guns, etc. Would you not see that as threatening if a few thousand Arabs parked in your back garden with all of those weapons?????? I think so, i know i would feel threatened by it.
So what do these terrorists do. They at first give America a warning. Please leave our countries or we will direct all of our attention on you. America laughs at them and stays where it is. Bombing Iraq for most of a decade and it doesn't help that the Americans also planted a mini America right in the middle of the Arab world (yes i am talking about Israel)during the 60's. So after a few attempts at deterring the Americans with a few attacks throughout the 90's. Al Quaeda decides - well it is a big country so we need a big plan. In 2001 they carry that plan out and look what happens, America still doesn't pay attention and starts throwing its weight around. It threatens to fuck up any country who helps terrorism or who does not stand along side america. Then the troops are thrown into Afghanistan to find the bearded man which they do not find at all and after getting very impatient George Bush decides to finish off Saddam Hussein. I mean why not - One Arab is as good as the next right.

Who will be next, Iran, Korea, who? I don't like the weight America has to throw around. Look at what happened in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. That was terrorism. What did all of those Japanese people do? America got frustrated because there country had been attacked so they used all they could to destroy the attacker as the 'terrorists' are now doing.
Think about it all very carefully. Include the fact that your free America is only free through acts of terror. They killed thousands of English soldiers in order to have a country of their own. Your country was made up of English, Scottish, Irish, French, Spanish and Portugeuse. Your country has no true identity other than the American Indians who were fucked aside by the invaders. Then left to die out by the new world order. You only know it as it is now and it means nothing to you because you are just American. All of the terrorists on the other hand have true identities that are being taken from them. Imagine if in 60-100 years the French language had died out, everything French was gone and it was a thing of the past. You might not think so but i'm sure French people or descendants of French people would think it was shit craic.

Anyway i have truly made my point now. I have nothing more to say about it. I think they are pushed into doing what they do and until any oppressing country realises this, terrorism will go on and on and on and on.
 
Yes, you've made your point ...and it's just what I thought it was all along!

You don't like free enterprise, nor do you like people to be free to buy products that they want and/or like. You want to force people to remain as they are, as they've been for millions of years, without any possibility of advancing and/or changing.

You want Merry Ol' England to be like it was 200 years ago ...where Levi's weren't popular and no one could buy them!

And for all of that, ye're blaming America and it's people and it's government ....and you should be blaming your own people for wanting things that become available through free enterprise and capitalism. The American government, nor the American people control free enterprise or capitalism, nor do they control what younger English people want to buy.

Ye're simply mistaken where you place the blame .....the buyer is to blame AND his culture which permits his purchases of free-market goods. You're wanting something that simply can't ever be again ....an unchanged world that suits YOU.

But don't worry, DarkThorn, you ain't the only one who has misplaced the blame!!

Baron Max
 
ok you too have a good point. I have misplaced the blame but that doesn't excuse America from other things. And please do not confuse me with an English person, merry ol' England has nothing to do with me.
 
DarkThorn said:
...but that doesn't excuse America from other things.

And I wasn't asking for us to be excused for anything. But this thread is about terrorist and whether it can be justified. I contend that nothing that "America", meaning the government of the nation, has done can justify someone blowing up innocent, unsuspecting, American civilians. And even more to the point, not only Americans, but innocent, unsuspecting citizens of other nations ...even Iraqis!

To my way of viewing terrorism, anyone who tries to justify it or support it in any way, including giving "moral support", is basically saying that if anyone, anywhere, does not like something, then they have a "right" to take the law into their own hands and blow up anyone, anywhere. Now I ask you, how can anyone condone such actions?

If I don't like something that my government does, and I blow up some people in Oklahoma City, can anyone, anywhere, with any rational, logical senses actual justify that action?

Baron Max
 
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Terrorism is justified in an all-out worldwide war between state entities, like WWII, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. When it becomes a fight for the survival of millions, then anything goes.
 
spidergoat said:
Terrorism is justified in an all-out worldwide war between state entities, like WWII, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki.

Well, Spider, I don't think many knowledgeable, informed, intelligent people actually call a fully declared war between nations as "terrorism". If you do, then ...well, we have nothing to discuss, I guess, and this topic might as well be tossed into the garbage heap.

spidergoat said:
When it becomes a fight for the survival of millions, then anything goes.

What if it's just a fight for the survival of twenty-five people? Only a little bit goes?

But, really, from the general tone of your post, I think ye're basically saying that whatever anyone wants to do, whoever they want to blow up, is fine with you and easily justified. Is that right?

Baron Max
 
It depends on the scale. When a whole nation is geared towards building the war machine, like with Germany or Japan, then destroying cities full of civillians is permissible. I would call that terrorism. I would still avoid torture or ethnic cleansing under all circumstances.
 
spidergoat said:
I would still avoid torture ...<snip>... under all circumstances.

How interesting ....you call it permissible in war to destroy whole cities, kill the entire population of civilians, yet you'd avoid hitting someone with a rubber hose???? ...LOL!!

Golly, there must be some kind of contradiction there, but I just ain't smart enough to see it!

spidergoat said:
...like with Germany or Japan, then destroying cities full of civillians is permissible. I would call that terrorism.

I just have to ask, then .....what's the difference between "war" and "terrorism"? You seem to use them interchangeably ...whereas almost no one else in the world does so. Perhaps you can explain that position?

Baron Max
 
Yes, I wouldn't want to single one person out for special treatment, I'd be an equal opportunity destroyer, but there are few circumstances when this would be the best option.

I would call terrorism attacking civilian and non-military targets.
 
spidergoat said:
I would call terrorism attacking civilian and non-military targets.

What if a "civilian" factory was making bombs and bullets to sell to the military? ...just as the cities in Japan and Germany were doing during World War II.

And take Fallujah, for example ...it's pretty clear to me that many of the "civilians" in Fallujah were supporting the "insurgents/terrorists", if nothing more than providing them sanctuary and food. Wouldn't they, then, be considered combatants in the "war"?

In such wars/conflicts, how can you or anyone tell the difference between civilians, terrorists and combatants if they don't wear uniforms of military designations? And if they don't, ...? Vietnam was a horrendous problem in knowing the difference ...and many little kids carrying shoe shine kits blew up US soldiers. So does that mean that the US soldiers should have been permitted to shoot any little kid carrying a shoe shine box?

You and I differ a lot on the definition of terrorism. I've come to think of "innocent civilians" more in terms of UNSUSPECTING, innocent civilians ...i.e., if a civilians is, in fact, helping combatants, then he's probably NOT UN-suspecting of violence done to him. But a group of women at a wedding reception just might NOT be suspecting that they'll be targeted by dirty, stinkin', cowardly terrorists! See what I mean?

The citizens of Hiroshima, Nagasaki and the German cities knew damned well that they were targeted ...they were NOT unsuspecting of that violence. Big difference, ain't it?

Baron Max
 
To be honest Baron Max, there is no war. You can not war with an idea and that is all terrorism is. The only way to fight it is intellectually. Everytime America drops a bomb, kills an Iraqi, captures immigrants and sends them off to be tortured, etc it only adds fuel to the fire.

Ok America was attacked by an organisation who were trying to make a point that not many Americans agree with. It was wrong but they believe it is war they are fighting. The reason they want to fight this war is because they feel threatened by America. To be honest i am also afraid of America and its ideas. The thing here is, none of it would have happened if America listened. Not only America this is as much the fault of England and a few other countries aswell.

Change foreign policy, treat the rest of the world with the same respect you demand of every other country and i am sure this will eventually calm down. But no, America will not stop now until they get REVENGE and they will take this revenge to any country they want. It is not right.

Terrorism is wrong but it can be justified. It can be compared to the revenge carried out by any frustrated person or group of people anywhere in the world for any number of reasons, terrorism is a buzz word right now.. It does not really exist though. What we really have is human emotion at its most intense. On both sides of the coin.

The troops have to be pulled out of Iraq, sure Osama has to be found and held for what he did but then at the end of it all George Bush and his administration and Tony Blair and his government should stand trial for crimes against humanity, war crimes, breaking the laws of international legislation, and all the rest.
 
DarkThorn said:
Terrorism is wrong but it can be justified.

Hmm, I think that's a contradiction in terms, isn't it? The idea that something can be "justified" is the same as saying that it's NOT "wrong".

DarkThorn said:
It(terrorism) can be compared to the revenge carried out by any frustrated person or group of people anywhere in the world for any number of reasons, ...

So what's the difference between "terrorism" and "murder"? And if there isn't any difference, then how can you "justify" terrorism, but condemn murder?

DarkThorn said:
Change foreign policy, treat the rest of the world with the same respect you demand of every other country and i am sure this will eventually calm down.

So we should change our foreign policy according to the dictates of a few fanatical, radical Muslim terrorists??? We should treat radical, murdering, terrorist groups with the same respect as that of peaceful nations of the world?

And what's to stop some other groups from forming and demanding more changes in our national and international policies? When will it ever stop if anyone can make demands by using the threat of murder and mayhem, and force complete changes in a nation's government? "...eventually calm down."?? Surely you can see that it would only embolden other self-interest groups all over the world ...surely you can see that, can't you?

DarkThorn said:
You can not war with an idea ...

Wasn't Nazism an "idea"? Wasn't Hitler's plan of conquering all of Europe an "idea"?

DarkThorn said:
To be honest i am also afraid of America and its ideas.

Oh, yeah! America has tried to conquer all of the nations of the world, huh? Tell me, DarkThorn, what, exactly, are you afraid of? I mean, even the ones that she's beaten into submission/defeat, we've helped back to become great nations independent of American domination.

No, DarkThorn, what ye're afraid of is NOT America, but free enterprise! You've said as much in your past posts ...but out of ignorance, you've blamed America instead of your nation's people, who want to buy things that free enterprise provides!

No, DarkThorn, you, like so many others, simply need some tangible something or someone to blame for your own nation's troubles. You can't or won't blame free enterprise (freedom!) because you actually LIKE that kind of freedom ....so you transfer the blame to America. Ditto for any and all of the problems in the world .....don't know what or who to blame? Just blame America ....everyone else is, so no one will complain too much!

Baron Max
 
Haha what a lot of shite. I have read a lot of your posts now and from what i gather you are a sick minded stereotypical American. You will try to justify the actions of your own country to no end and i will eventually give up trying to get you to see my point of view. I mean what is the point? I'm not alive so i can waste time trying to argue my point with people who think they are so righteous they can bring a country to its knees, change everything about it and then leave with a smile because they think it is now better. Better for who? The people who live there or are they just scared of having more bombs dropped on them and won't say shit or better for America because that country is now just another stepping stone to war elsewhere.

The Nazi's were not an idea. Hitler wanted to make Germany look good again after the allies humiliated it in WW1. The Jews were scapegoats in his war just as the muslims are scapegoats in George Bush's war. It was not an idea because an idea is something that is thought, it is a concept and a concept can only be fought through intelligence. World war 2 was very real. It was an idea in the beginning but it came to fruition before anybody tried to stop it. America always babbles on about how it came and saved Europe. Which is more shite. America waited until midway through before even considering helping out its so called friends. Then, the only reason America entered the war was because Japan attacked Pearl Harbour. I am sure alot of Europe appreciates the help they eventually received because if not we may all be Germans now but i don't not when you gloat about it in your movies. We came and saved the world. Every war America has ever fought has been glorified. Is war justified? Is entering a foreign nation justified? Is dropping bombs on civilians justified? Was the biggest terrorist attack in the world ever justified? How many innocent people died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?? More than there were in any of the world trade centre buildings by any stretch of the imagination.

The attack on the twin towers was sick but it was not just Ameri cans who died that day. There were people from France, Scotland, Italy, Germany, China, Russia, Spain, wherever. I don't see all of these countries going crazy about it. Ok you can argue it was brought to America but think about what America has brought elsewhere.

I am banging my head against a brick wall here.

I am not afraid of free enterprise...if people want to buy into foreign business, etc then let them. What i am afraid of is America becoming too big for its boots which is already happening. America dictates to every country in the world what they should do or not do. But if we tell America to stop polluting the fuck out of the earth, do they listen to us? No! America ignores us all because we are puny and can't do shit to make you stop pollution. America tells the rest of the world to disarm nuclear weapons or not to make them but how many nuclear warheads does America still have??? Too many. The list goes on. It seems to me that there is one rule for America and another for the rest of the world. Which to me is not fair or right or justified.

And finally. Your foreign policy should change. It shouldn't be seen as giving into terrorists. It should be seen as a positive step towards ending terrorism properly. Intelligently.
 
DarkThorn said:
Haha what a lot of shite. I have read a lot of your posts now and from what i gather you are a sick minded stereotypical American.

Ahh, yes ....there it finally comes out, huh? ...LOL! :)

We obviously now have nothing to discuss.

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:

Oh, yeah! America has tried to conquer all of the nations of the world, huh? Tell me .... what, exactly, are you afraid of? I mean, even the ones that she's beaten into submission/defeat, we've helped back to become great nations independent of American domination.

What there is to fear, in general, Baron Max, is that the "American way" will spread to all the nations of the world, thus dooming the human species. Ask people to be considerate of the future and they call you a liberal elitist, or hippie, or utopian. No, some of us just want the human endeavor to be successful.

Oh, well, at least we'll all be numb at the end, maybe plugged directly into our computer, shopping and celebrating our material success while Macy's spams your brain directly.

The "American way" is not conducive to the greater human endeavor. It is almost antithetical, enticing the species toward an essential suicide.
 
Baron Max said:
But a group of women at a wedding reception just might NOT be suspecting that they'll be targeted by dirty, stinkin', cowardly terrorists! See what I mean?

oh my
you finally left the darkside for good
congrats!

Iraqi officials last night said an American helicopter fired on a wedding party in western Iraq killing more than 40 people, including many children, in another damaging setback for the US occupation.
A senior Iraqi police officer told the Associated Press that a helicopter fired at the party early yesterday morning in a remote village close to the Syrian border, killing between 42 and 45 people.

Television footage showed a truck carrying the bodies of the dead arriving in Ramadi, the nearest big town. Many of the dead were clearly children. link



dirty, stinkin', cowardly americans!

:D
 
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