Is Religious Bigotry off the table?

[EmptyForceOfChi]

Thread Summary:

Well, SAM and EFC find words like Nigger and Kafir acceptable .

Woah, Hold on. Kaffir means Non believer or idol worshipper. its just a term for somebody. Nigger is a term used for insult I would never use that term in seriousness.

My Daughter Is Half "Black" Caribbean So do you really think I would Use a racist term Like "Nigger".

Peace.

 

[GeoffP]

Dude, your Church excommunicated a whole hospital for daring to not fire an ex nun (who was excommunicated) because she dared give permission to perform a life saving abortion on a patient (the mother was quite literally dying from the stress the pregnancy was putting on her heart). You want to talk about "bad signs"?

Dude, that religion is trying to extirpate excommunicate a whole sect of Muslims who don't - or who they think don't - share their views on religious observance. Anti-blasphemy laws exist for the punishment of Muslims and non-Muslims throughout the Islamic world. Pakistanis are obligated to refute Ahmaddyas every time they want a passport. Non-Muslims are prevented from practicing their faith in Saudi Arabia. This strikes me as a little larger in comparison than a single hospital. That is a "bad sign", dude. I agree that it is horrible that an entire hospital can be excommunicated, but they cannot be jailed or fined. Who has been jailed for apostacy in those nations, or in those religious systems?

The Government of China banned a whole religion and jailed and tortured followers.

No one says boo about that. Why?

Probably a couple reasons: probably a little inherent racial guilt, and probably a little what? monolithic China's going to listen to us? It seems pretty close to the mark. I do agree that China should be pursued more strongly; but are you saying it is a kind of racial bigotry that they are not chastised?

I'd be interested to see some of the "witchcraft-combating" that my idiotic curia is pursuing, but it still doesn't seem as common demographically.

That is what bothers me about all of this.. The use of the plight of many people to further the hatred some here have against the religion. Michael doesn't give a shit about the Ahmadiyya.

I don't know that he does or doesn't care, in point of fact. They suffer many of the same problems that other religious minorities suffer under conservative Islamic law and he may share common concerns with them. I care about their rights to worship as they like, as I care about everyone's.

And?

Hate crimes are bad, full stop.

Yes. Two of your links are more descriptive than statistical, however: and statistics are the element of what we must call a wave or outbreak. I recall statistics showing something like 28 anti-Muslim hate crimes in 2001, a spike to 400+ in 2001, and now something on the order of 110 per annum. This is higher than previous, yet statistics collected before and after 9/11 consistently show higher rates of Judeophobia. If there's a wave of violence, it would seem to be against Jews more than Muslims, with incidents approaching four digits.

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2009/incidents.html

This stuff is beside the point anyway. I don't agree with his phraseology - and I've had to put up with as bad or worse when my atheist colleagues criticize Christianity - but he is making some important statements about the nature of the humanitarian failures of a law derived so strongly and unrefinedly from narrow religious observance. It's like Pat Robertson, with a militia, and constitutional jurisdiction. It's a bad idea. As least the excesses of the Catholic church are extrajudiciary: maybe even actionable.

 

[GeoffP]

Woah, Hold on. Kaffir means Non believer or idol worshipper. its just a term for somebody. Nigger is a term used for insult I would never use that term in seriousness.

My Daughter Is Half "Black" Caribbean So do you really think I would Use a racist term Like "Nigger".

Peace.

You use "kaffir", and there is little ethical difference.

 

[Michael]

Islamophobia? Oh, a ripe one there. And Africans who complained about White bigotry were guilty of WASP-phobia.

Kafir is a bigoted Islamic term. Just as Nigger is a bigoted term. Nigger means much more than person of African decent. Anyone who suggests otherwise is being intellectually dishonest.

If you care to look, of the billion or so Muslim around the place, most live in one of these counties: Government backed Religious Apartheid through Bigoted Blasphemy Laws:


Blasphemy law in Indonesia.

Blasphemy law in Iran

Blasphemy law in Jordan

Blasphemy law in Afghanistan

Blasphemy law in Algeria

Blasphemy law in Egypt

Blasphemy law in Kuwait

Blasphemy law in Malaysia

Blasphemy law in Pakistan

Blasphemy law in Saudi Arabia

Blasphemy law in the United Arab Emirates



Try living as an Atheist Apostate in one of those countries. Watch how quick you change your mind on Kafir and religious bigotry. You're only too lucky people like ME stood up to Christian Bigotry and made it possible for Atheists to live in Western nations. Some people get onto the street and make change happen, most sheeple live under tyranny for decades waiting for others to take a stand.

 

[Tiassa]

The obvious question

Michael

I would ask, since you made the point—

You're only too lucky people like ME stood up to Christian Bigotry and made it possible for Atheists to live in Western nations.

—just how you think that works. How did we get, say, from the trial of Anne Hutchinson to today?

Magic?

The inherently better qualities of white Christians compared to dark-skinned Mohammedans?

Just what contributed to the changing perspectives in the Western experience over the last few centuries?

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

You use "kaffir", and there is little ethical difference.

Yeah the differenc is one is a muslim and one isn't. and where di the word Nigger come from.


Cycles

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

Islamophobia? Oh, a ripe one there. And Africans who complained about White bigotry were guilty of WASP-phobia.

Kafir is a bigoted Islamic term. Just as Nigger is a bigoted term. Nigger means much more than person of African decent. Anyone who suggests otherwise is being intellectually dishonest.

If you care to look, of the billion or so Muslim around the place, most live in one of these counties: Government backed Religious Apartheid through Bigoted Blasphemy Laws:


Blasphemy law in Indonesia.

Blasphemy law in Iran

Blasphemy law in Jordan

Blasphemy law in Afghanistan

Blasphemy law in Algeria

Blasphemy law in Egypt

Blasphemy law in Kuwait

Blasphemy law in Malaysia

Blasphemy law in Pakistan

Blasphemy law in Saudi Arabia

Blasphemy law in the United Arab Emirates



Try living as an Atheist Apostate in one of those countries. Watch how quick you change your mind on Kafir and religious bigotry. You're only too lucky people like ME stood up to Christian Bigotry and made it possible for Atheists to live in Western nations. Some people get onto the street and make change happen, most sheeple live under tyranny for decades waiting for others to take a stand.

What of it?, Don't Commit Blasphemy then. Thats like me saying try living as a drunk Driver in London it's a nightmare!. They won't let me down a 40 while going 95 down the North Circular.


Your basicaly complaining about there being laws you dont like, and saying well i dont like other nations having foreign laws. they should all live by our laws.


You just dont like muslims period or their religion.

Cycles

 

[pjdude1219]

Islamophobia? Oh, a ripe one there. And Africans who complained about White bigotry were guilty of WASP-phobia.

Kafir is a bigoted Islamic term. Just as Nigger is a bigoted term. Nigger means much more than person of African decent. Anyone who suggests otherwise is being intellectually dishonest.

If you care to look, of the billion or so Muslim around the place, most live in one of these counties: Government backed Religious Apartheid through Bigoted Blasphemy Laws:


Blasphemy law in Indonesia.

Blasphemy law in Iran

Blasphemy law in Jordan

Blasphemy law in Afghanistan

Blasphemy law in Algeria

Blasphemy law in Egypt

Blasphemy law in Kuwait

Blasphemy law in Malaysia

Blasphemy law in Pakistan

Blasphemy law in Saudi Arabia

Blasphemy law in the United Arab Emirates



Try living as an Atheist Apostate in one of those countries. Watch how quick you change your mind on Kafir and religious bigotry. You're only too lucky people like ME stood up to Christian Bigotry and made it possible for Atheists to live in Western nations. Some people get onto the street and make change happen, most sheeple live under tyranny for decades waiting for others to take a stand.

people like you didn't stand up to christian bigotry they turned the other way and pretended it didn't happen


and kaffir isn't a bigoted islamic term hell it only gained it bigoted connatations through the use by WHITE CHRISTIAN EUROPEANS. the word means heathen or unbeliever in its actual arabic usage its not a bigoted term

 

[Michael]

Michael

I would ask, since you made the point—



—just how you think that works. How did we get, say, from the trial of Anne Hutchinson to today?

Magic?

The inherently better qualities of white Christians compared to dark-skinned Mohammedans?

Just what contributed to the changing perspectives in the Western experience over the last few centuries?

My guess is prosperity. Rich societies become tolerant. Poor countries are more susceptible to intolerant memes. Though poor countries don't have to be intolerant. Thai are generally quite tolerant.

 

[Michael]

What of it?, Don't Commit Blasphemy then. Thats like me saying try living as a drunk Driver in London it's a nightmare!. They won't let me down a 40 while going 95 down the North Circular.


Your basicaly complaining about there being laws you dont like, and saying well i dont like other nations having foreign laws. they should all live by our laws.


You just dont like muslims period or their religion.

Cycles

The laws are bigoted. I'm simply pointing it out. Admittedly, we could take SAM's advice, bleach the coloring out of our skin, get some plastic surgery - *poof* "White* you know, so as not to violate the bigots law.

 

[Michael]

and kaffir isn't a bigoted islamic term hell it only gained it bigoted connatations through the use by WHITE CHRISTIAN EUROPEANS. the word means heathen or unbeliever in its actual arabic usage its not a bigoted term

You know, I'd love to stand you in the room with the Pakistani Christian Kaffir, just before they hang her - tell that to her three kids.

Teaching children to think other children are unclean Kaffir is sick. It's as sick as teaching children that Blacks are unclean.

 

[S.A.M.]

The laws are bigoted. I'm simply pointing it out. Admittedly, we could take SAM's advice, bleach the coloring out of our skin, get some plastic surgery - *poof* "White* you know, so as not to violate the bigots law.

Which bathroom do you use?

 

[GeoffP]

and kaffir isn't a bigoted islamic term hell it only gained it bigoted connatations through the use by WHITE CHRISTIAN EUROPEANS. the word means heathen or unbeliever in its actual arabic usage its not a bigoted term

Actually, common usage finds it as an implicit statement of superiority:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/86060-kaffir.html

Kafir (Arabic: كافر kāfir; plural كفّار kuffār) is a term used in an Islamic doctrinal sense, sometimes translated as "pagan" while at other times translated as "unbeliever", or simply "disbeliever". Linguistically, a kafir is one who commits kufr (كفر), both words being derived from the root verb kafara (كَفَرَ) meaning "to conceal", referring in this context to a concealment. The opposite of a kafir is a mu'min, or believer.

In the Arabic and Urdu languages the term refers to a person who disbelieves in Islam, including, but not restricted to atheists.[citation needed] The Qur'an says, "They surely disbelieve [كَفَرَ] who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three [trinity]; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve [5:73]. In another verse of the Quran this theme is repeated, "They indeed are disbelievers [كَفَرَ] those who say, ‘God is the Messiah, son of Mary’"[5:17]

In recent times it is more of a "discriminatory" term against "unbelievers", "disbelievers" or "non-believers" do exist in the Islamic faith, as also in the other Monotheistic faiths. (see) Christianity and Judaism.[1]

In short a "Kafir" translated into to the English language refers to anyone who disbelieves in Islam. This includes Christians and Jews who are additionally called people of the book due to believing in the Bible and Torah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir

Read further in that link. Among the traits attributed to "kafirs" are ingratitude, pride, vanity and hubris: for their disbelief. It appears in usage to be the equivalent of "pagan". The latter word is found in Christianity and Judaism, but it is not polite. I expect Arabic is sufficiently subtle a language to render a term for "non-Muslim" without an implicit root in such negative implications.

It probably approaches the word (if you will excuse me) "niggardly" in English; the usage is generally negative, but may imply explicit insult depending on the user.

 

[S.A.M.]

And some people use bitch as an expletive and Jesus Christ as well. So? How does misapproriating the usage of a valid word make the word itself bigoted?

 

[GeoffP]

Oh, you could argue it was just the usage. I suppose I could argue 'niggardly' wasn't intended to insult anyone, but just a term one would use to describe a person as 'miserly'. Except that the basis is racial. I'm sorry everyone ruined your word for you.

 

[GeoffP]

Here's another: "tar baby".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_baby#Term

Why, it's just a term for an African doll made of tar. And, yet, it isn't, in many circles.

 

[S.A.M.]

Oh, you could argue it was just the usage. I suppose I could argue 'niggardly' wasn't intended to insult anyone, but just a term one would use to describe a person as 'miserly'. Except that the basis is racial. I'm sorry everyone ruined your word for you.

No problem, its called orientalism. It doesn't change the usage or meaning of the word in the language it is used, it just keeps colonialists from perpetuating the alternative meanings they devise for it. Which come to think of it, is not a bad thing. I may say athiest in English, but if I were writing in Arabic or Urdu, the word would still be kafir. But since most orientalists don't bother with learning a second language, that should not be a problem.

So Michael is not a kafir, he is an athiest and you are not a masihi, but a christian [not sure if its bigoted to not capitalise one or the other]

And no this does not reflect bigotry against non-English languages, even though it looks very much like it

 

[Michael]

Which bathroom do you use?

You know, this is a VERY good point. Men used to legally discriminate against women in the West. We moved past that a few decades ago.

Do you think it's moral to refuse to employ someone because they are Kaffir SAM? How about taxation? Should a Kaffir be taxed differently? How about a Black? Should Black people be taxed and employed differently than White people? How about passing a Law that says: If a Black person bleaches their skin and cosmetically alters their hair and facial features (maybe even the long bone in the thigh as that's structurally slightly more bowed) then they can be employed EQUALLY with Whites.

You know, basically we apply YOUR EXACT advice to Kafirs in Islamic countries. Convert to Islam. Worked well enough against the Muslims in Spain. The Zoroastrians in Persia. The Hindu in India. Yes, lets all live like it's Bronze Age 2011 and get on with it. Someone hand me my big stick shaped like a T and the magic book, I'm out to bless the Heathens.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

The laws are bigoted. I'm simply pointing it out. Admittedly, we could take SAM's advice, bleach the coloring out of our skin, get some plastic surgery - *poof* "White* you know, so as not to violate the bigots law.

The laws in every country are "Bigoted" then, What makes your country's laws any less "Bigoted" Than Islamic laws.



Cycles.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

You know, this is a VERY good point. Men used to legally discriminate against women in the West. We moved past that a few decades ago.

Do you think it's moral to refuse to employ someone because they are Kaffir SAM? How about taxation? Should a Kaffir be taxed differently? How about a Black? Should Black people be taxed and employed differently than White people? How about passing a Law that says: If a Black person bleaches their skin and cosmetically alters their hair and facial features (maybe even the long bone in the thigh as that's structurally slightly more bowed) then they can be employed EQUALLY with Whites.

You know, basically we apply YOUR EXACT advice to Kafirs in Islamic countries. Convert to Islam. Worked well enough against the Muslims in Spain. The Zoroastrians in Persia. The Hindu in India. Yes, lets all live like it's Bronze Age 2011 and get on with it. Someone hand me my big stick shaped like a T and the magic book, I'm out to bless the Heathens.

That's the Spirit Laddo`Put your Jubba on and come pray with us and everyone is happy, we will treat you as Family.


Peace