Is Religious Bigotry off the table?

[Bells]

I wear Jubah/Robes/Martial arts uniforms When Im not at work or going anywhere with a strict `Dress Code'.



So better get that scarf wrapped.


Bless

Tutu and Swan Lake or no go.

What are you talking about? Do you live on Earth?

Yes.

Do you?

Indonesians overwhelmingly support legally banning Ahmadiyya Islam. They passed the law last year. Did you miss that? And yes, hundreds of Millions of Indonesians support banning Ahmadiyya Islam. Poll after poll shows this. Which is why the LAW garnished overwhelming support and was EASILY PASSED. And Indonesia is a "moderate" Islamic country with "moderate" Blasphemy Laws.

And?

It is an interfaith dispute. One branch of Islam banning the other. Much like the Sunni and Shiites are constantly at war.

What is your point? Poll after poll shows the European support of the banning of the Romani across Europe. So what is your point?

Go to Pakistan and there you'll see real Religious Bigotry - Religious Apartheid via "Blasphemy" Laws. It's blatant and the support is OVERWHELMING.

And?

Visit any country in Europe where there are Romani and you would see the same thing. And yet, they rarely make the news, do they? They aren't even classified as being human.

And the support for the banning of their language, the banning of their culture and their forced assimilation in history, their holocaust and their forced removal is generally supported by the countries that perpetrate the crime.

You wish to talk about bigotry, then talk about bigotry. Do not try and state that it only exists or is a bigger problem within one religion. It is not and never has been. The bigotry against Muslims in Europe an the US and even in Australia is overwhelming. You say nothing of that, do you? When Muslims are denied the right to build their Mosques on their land because of religious bias and bigotry, you don't say boo.

It is the hypocrisy of your argument that kills me Michael.

Not to mention the millions of people who, in their daily lives, simply refuse to shake hands with a Kafir and express their Bigotry in this way.

You are obsessed with this shake hands thing, aren't you?

Jesus Christ, let it go already. She didn't like you and refused to shake your hand. That is her bigotry. Why do you now wish to further that bigotry and attack over 1.5 billion people because some woman didn't want to shake your hand? Why do you now label and malign over 1.5 billion people because of the actions of the few?

So, I'm not sure which planet you live on, but on Earth there's hundreds of millions of Muslims who support Religious Bigotry as evidenced by Law. That's a fact Bells. It's not some pie in the sky whine. It's fact.

And it is a fact that today, on this planet, we have two wars started by a religious zealot of a President because God told him to. On this planet today, we have a religion being abused and its followers being denied basic human rights (look at the treatment of refugees by the Australian Government for a prime example).. That is a fact.

We see bigotry. Within all religions. And we see bigotry outside of those religions from the likes of you, who uses the fate of some poor woman to try to advance his own bigotry. You should be ashamed of yourself frankly.

 

[Michael]

Sorry Bells, but you're wrong.

Indonesians overwhelmingly support banning Church construction. The general public overwhelmingly supported a Law to limit and eventually ban Ahmadiyya Islam.

Indonesia has Blasphemy Laws.
Pakistan has Blasphemy Laws.
Malaysia has Blasphemy Laws.
KSA has Blasphemy Laws.
Iran has Blasphemy Laws.
etc... etc... etc....

These Apartheid Laws are NOT about "Interfaith" disputes! They attempt to legally ban ANY and ALL forms of belief that run counter to the doctrine of Islamic Supremacy. These Bigoted Laws have overwhelming support of the general Muslim populations - even in "moderate" countries like Indonesia. Why do you suppose that's the case? What is it about "Islam" that teaches people to be Bigoted towards other people's personal religious belief?


How many Hindu and Buddhist Temples in Mecca? How many Synagogues in all of KSA Bells? Huh? How many? NONE. Why? It's because Islam is an ideology that teaches, encourages and promotes Religious Apartheid. Muslims all over the so-called Islamic world OVERWHELMINGLY SUPPORT these Racist-like Bigoted Blasphemy Laws.

THAT is a simple FACT.


Egypt, Iran, KSA, Indonesia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Iraq all of these countries make Apostasy a crime and overwhelmingly the general Muslim population want to see apostates punished - even to the point of being PUT to DEATH.
Those are the facts. Islam promotes Religious Bigotry and it's clear and evident to see. I don't care if it's 1 billion or 1 trillion - it's wrong.



Oh, and I'm the Kafir/Nigger here Bells. Sorry if I don't like my Kafir/Nigger label. Maybe I should shut up like a good like Kafir/Nigger and suck it up? Is that what I should do Bells?
While I'm sure if someone called a Black person an unclean Nigger, we'd agree it's evil and wrong. But call someone an unclean Kafir, oh, then it's OK? Is that you're position Bells?

 

[S.A.M.]

Oh, and I'm the Kafir/Nigger here Bells. Sorry if I don't like my Kafir/Nigger label. Maybe I should shut up like a good like Kafir/Nigger and suck it up? Is that what I should do Bells??

If the shoe fits?

Kafir (Arabic: كافر kāfir; plural كفّار kuffār) is a term used in an Islamic doctrinal sense, sometimes translated as "pagan" while at other times translated as "unbeliever", or simply "disbeliever". Linguistically, a kafir is one who commits kufr (كفر), both words being derived from the root verb kafara (كَفَرَ) meaning "to conceal", referring in this context to a concealment. The opposite of a kafir is a mu'min, or believer.

In the Arabic and Urdu languages the term refers to a person who disbelieves in Islam, including, but not restricted to atheists.[citation needed] The Qur'an says, "They surely disbelieve [كَفَرَ] who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three [trinity]; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve [5:73]. In another verse of the Quran this theme is repeated, "They indeed are disbelievers [كَفَرَ] those who say, ‘God is the Messiah, son of Mary’"[5:17]

In recent times it is more of a "discriminatory" term against "unbelievers", "disbelievers" or "non-believers" do exist in the Islamic faith, as also in the other Monotheistic faiths. (see) Christianity and Judaism.[1]

In short a "Kafir" translated into to the English language refers to anyone who disbelieves in Islam. This includes Christians and Jews who are additionally called people of the book due to believing in the Bible and Torah.

Nigger is a noun in the English language, most notable for its usage in a pejorative context to refer to black people (generally people of Sub-Saharan African descent), and also as an informal slang term, among other contexts. It is a common ethnic slur. The word originated as a term used in a neutral context to refer to black people, as a variation of the Spanish/Portuguese noun negro, a descendant of the Latin adjective niger, meaning the color "black".[1][2][3][4]

If you're not a Muslim, you're a kafir, if you don't like the term, you can invent a new one for "not a Muslim" - or you can become a Muslim.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

If the shoe fits?





If you're not a Muslim, you're a kafir, if you don't like the term, you can invent a new one for "not a Muslim" - or you can become a Muslim.

But remember people of other Religions are muslims without realizing it. and dont realize the Quran is the final testament. If they worship idols and are christians they are still kaffir yeah. But if they are christians who understand jesus was a messenger and not God in human form, realize that god has no equal or trinity of son man and ghost. he Is one and only. Jews are basicaly muslims they don't worship Idols even though some are ignorant to the latter 2 prophets peace be upon them.

Alot of jews/christians/monks/Spiritualists are not Kaffirs even though they dont call themselves Muslims.

"You can eat at a jews house but not a christians"


Salam

 

[Bells]

Sorry Bells, but you're wrong.

Indonesians overwhelmingly support banning Church construction. The general public overwhelmingly supported a Law to limit and eventually ban Ahmadiyya Islam.

Oh please!

Can the moral outrage. It is highly hypocritical of you. You are so obsessed with Islam that you overlook the China's actions and bigotry when it comes to religion? Where is your moral outrage for the Romani? Where is your moral outrage for the Falun Gong, which is not only banned, but followers treated as dissidents and jailed and killed? Where is your moral outrage for the victims of the LRA? Where is your moral outrage for the treatment of local indigenous religions by Christian church groups? Where is your anger and outrage of the bigotry against Muslims in the US who faced abuse, threats and anger for wanting to build their places of worship?

Indonesia has Blasphemy Laws.
Pakistan has Blasphemy Laws.
Malaysia has Blasphemy Laws.
KSA has Blasphemy Laws.
Iran has Blasphemy Laws.
etc... etc... etc....

So does Ireland, Italy, Israel, Denmark, Brazil, Finland, Malta (who have laws against the vilification of religion and against immorality), the Netherlands, and I think even Switzerland does as well.

What is your point?

These Apartheid Laws are NOT about "Interfaith" disputes! They attempt to legally ban ANY and ALL forms of belief that run counter to the doctrine of Islamic Supremacy. These Bigoted Laws have overwhelming support of the general Muslim populations - even in "moderate" countries like Indonesia. Why do you suppose that's the case? What is it about "Islam" that teaches people to be Bigoted towards other people's personal religious belief?

So many claims, so little proven fact from you.

Stop with the general accusations. Either provide a source for your claims that over 1.5 billion people support bigotry, or cease and desist.

How many Hindu and Buddhist Temples in Mecca? How many Synagogues in all of KSA Bells? Huh? How many? NONE. Why? It's because Islam is an ideology that teaches, encourages and promotes Religious Apartheid. Muslims all over the so-called Islamic world OVERWHELMINGLY SUPPORT these Racist-like Bigoted Blasphemy Laws.

How many mosques or Hindu and Buddhist temples in the Vatican?

Again, prove to me that the greater majority of over 1.5 billion people support discrimination and bigotry Michael.

Egypt, Iran, KSA, Indonesia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Iraq all of these countries make Apostasy a crime and overwhelmingly the general Muslim population want to see apostates punished - even to the point of being PUT to DEATH.
Those are the facts. Islam promotes Religious Bigotry and it's clear and evident to see. I don't care if it's 1 billion or 1 trillion - it's wrong.

If it is fact that over 1.5 billion people support this, you should be clearly able to support this claim.

Otherwise, shut up already Glenn Beck.

Oh, and I'm the Kafir/Nigger here Bells. Sorry if I don't like my Kafir/Nigger label. Maybe I should shut up like a good like Kafir/Nigger and suck it up? Is that what I should do Bells?

Michael, until you support your claims in this thread, I would suggest you take your head out of your arse and see the sunshine.

You have consistently failed to support your claims in this thread and instead have used yet another thread as a platform to spout your own bigotry. You clearly have issues with Muslims and Islam. Your arguments barely make sense and the hypocrisy is amusing, but that amusement is waning.

I would suggest you get a god damn grip on yourself, hold your balls or something and take a break. Stop making unsupported and unsubstantiated accusations and either support your claims or shut the hell up.

While I'm sure if someone called a Black person an unclean Nigger, we'd agree it's evil and wrong. But call someone an unclean Kafir, oh, then it's OK? Is that you're position Bells?

I just refer to you as a retard, so hey, knock yourself out.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

We should keep in mind that there is a fundamental difference between hating Bigoted Ideology versus, hating a person who holds Bigoted Ideology dear to their hearts. While the temptation is to hate the person, IMO, we should pity that sort of person. IOW, it's possible to hate a person's Bigoted Ideology while thinking little (or next to nothing) of the person who spreads such Ideology. Think of it like this: Would you really hate a 10 year old who hates "blacks" because she was taught bigotry? No. Of course not. You hate what she was taught to think. Well, just because someone is 25 or 45 etc... doesn't make it much different in my book. The only difference may be the tact you take in an attempt to modify, and maybe even eliminate, the bigotry.


Imagine considering your own daughter unclean. Now, just consider the idea of "unclean people". Where does this ideology come from? Ever hear the words nigger, heathen, kafir? Should we stand ideally by when a White person refuses to shake the hand of a Black person just because that person is Black? Shouldn't we do something? Say something? Challenge it? Are we so politically correct we now have to accept any and all ill forms of behavior? What about the woman who refused to shake my hand because I'm Kafir?

Something to think about.

Ever wonder how a religious Caste system could develop? Think about these ideas: nigger, heathen, kafir.... Labeling people "unclean" is a gross misuse of the very small amount of intellectual ability available to said bigot (more than often theobots). But, what's really interesting is think about whom did/do these ideas of unclean people originate? Why are they tolerated by society? How do they spread? What types of people take a stand against them? Can you stop the spread? If so then how? There's nothing wrong with taking an intellectual stand against White Supremacy. If that feels like Bigotry towards WASP Skin Heads, well, it's not. It's against the ideology that non-Whites are a less "race" of people. Hell, I almost find it comical. A White Bigot whining about being singled out for their bigotry?

How asinine is that!?

There's nothing wrong with taking an intellectual stand against Religious Supremacy and Religious Bigotry. If that itself feels like Bigotry towards Religious Bigots, well, it's not. It's against their bigoted ideology.

Hey I am a Heathen. What you say about Me ? What is a Kafir? Can I be a Kafir instead of a Heathen. I added Voodoo to my Heathen by my friend from Haiti so really I am a Voodoo Great house of stone Heathen now . What do I gots to do to get the Kafir added to my Tittle? Yeah that sounds like a cool Tittle. I want one

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

But remember people of other Religions are muslims without realizing it. and dont realize the Quran is the final testament. If they worship idols and are christians they are still kaffir yeah. But if they are christians who understand jesus was a messenger and not God in human form, realize that god has no equal or trinity of son man and ghost. he Is one and only. Jews are basicaly muslims they don't worship Idols even though some are ignorant to the latter 2 prophets peace be upon them.

Alot of jews/christians/monks/Spiritualists are not Kaffirs even though they dont call themselves Muslims.

"You can eat at a jews house but not a christians"


Salam

How bout Sumerians? Can we be Kafirs too? Jesus was a sinner so he can't be the all seeing father. He was like the red headed step child of a carpenter, That is why he had so much resentment to the earth. Yeah that is what he did . He went around saying " I am not part of this Earth" Anyone else hear him say that? I did . Oh i guess he said " I am not Of this earth. See now Me I am of the earth. I come straight out of the pit of hell. Where you get shot for just being a paperboy delivering Sunday papers

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

How bout Sumerians? Can we be Kafirs too? Jesus was a sinner so he can't be the all seeing father. He was like the red headed step child of a carpenter, That is why he had so much resentment to the earth. Yeah that is what he did . He went around saying " I am not part of this Earth" Anyone else hear him say that? I did . Oh i guess he said " I am not Of this earth. See now Me I am of the earth. I come straight out of the pit of hell. Where you get shot for just being a paperboy delivering Sunday papers

I don't Remember teaching that or being taught that.


Peace.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

Tutu and Swan Lake or no go.

No you wear whatever then deal off lol.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

I don't Remember teaching that or being taught that.


Peace.

He also said " I did not come to make peace on the earth , but to divide the father against the son the daughter against the mother. It was more of his anger manifesting from having a hard childhood. I could just imagine his step father riding him like a donkey. Yelling at Him " Hurry up Jesus . Get that wood over here now. saying things like Jesus you are never going to even make a pimple on a carpenters rear end. Get to work and put that book down. Good thing his Mommy wanted him to get an education

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

He also said " I did not come to make peace on the earth , but to divide the father against the son the daughter against the mother. It was more of his anger manifesting from having a hard childhood. I could just imagine his step father riding him like a donkey. Yelling at Him " Hurry up Jesus . Get that wood over here now. saying things like Jesus you are never going to even make a pimple on a carpenters rear end. Get to work and put that book down. Good thing his Mommy wanted him to get an education

Now you are using the teachings yes but no wrong context.


If a mother wills against the most high and the child rebels to follow the most high this is good.

If the father tells the son to wage war and invade and he rebels in the name of god this is a good division.


Peace.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

No you wear whatever then deal off lol.

You probably never read the Christian new testament and it probably don't say in the Quran. Christians are in denial of it and look all bewildered when they find out because of there Idol worship they do. How they make an Idol out of the Image of Jesus instead of trying to understand what the man really said. He sinned in more ways than one . He committed suicide by letting him self get caught by the Romans, but that is not the worst of it. He framed his Best Friend Judas by telling Judas you have to turn me in . He said " whose ever cup I put this piece of bread in is the one to betray Me . Judas in another book of the new Testament Said " Is it Me Lord" after Jesus said one of you will betray Me. Now that sounds like a command to Me. If My lord said to Me you will betray Me what would I do , but follow his command or loose face with my master. There is another part that tells us. It talks about the end times and says The Man of Sin will be revealed and who do you think that man of sin is . You got it for in the old testament it says " No one is perfect not even one" Like I said the Christian is blinded by there Idol worship and can't see the writing in there own book

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

You probably never read the Christian new testament and it probably don't say in the Quran. Christians are in denial of it and look all bewildered when they find out because of there Idol worship they do. How they make an Idol out of the Image of Jesus instead of trying to understand what the man really said. He sinned in more ways than one . He committed suicide by letting him self get caught by the Romans, but that is not the worst of it. He framed his Best Friend Judas by telling Judas you have to turn me in . He said " whose ever cup I put this piece of bread in is the one to betray Me . Judas in another book of the new Testament Said " Is it Me Lord" after Jesus said one of you will betray Me. Now that sounds like a command to Me. If My lord said to Me you will betray Me what would I do , but follow his command or loose face with my master. There is another part that tells us. It talks about the end times and says The Man of Sin will be revealed and who do you think that man of sin is . You got it for in the old testament it says " No one is perfect not even one" Like I said the Christian is blinded by there Idol worship and can't see the writing in there own book

I teach people the gospels, are you joking with me or something. I think it is you maybe who have not read the Quran brother, or the lost books.






Peace and overrstanding be upon you

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

I teach people the gospels, are you joking with me or something. I think it is you maybe who have not read the Quran brother, or the lost books.






Peace and overrstanding be upon you

I read the book of Judas and know what I talk about for i know the Great House that was in the dream. It also is one of the commandments that you shall honor you Father and Mother and the division is a violation of this commandment . I have not read the Quran you are right about that one day I might. I have read the Al-aqaid though and found it very enlightening. Have you read that and if so tell me what you think about it?

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

I read the book of Judas and know what I talk about for i know the Great House that was in the dream. It also is one of the commandments that you shall honor you Father and Mother and the division is a violation of this commandment . I have not read the Quran you are right about that one day I might. I have read the Al-aqaid though and found it very enlightening. Have you read that and if so tell me what you think about it?

So if your mother and father are Evil people and have you do evil in the name of God what then?.

You would hold idols of your parents Man made law over that of god?, dont use scripture in this way you will only cause harm to yourself. you are limited in your study of scripture Before you respond to me with your words of haste but little wisdom go and read thr Entire Quran.

Peace.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

. I have read the Al-aqaid though and found it very enlightening. Have you read that and if so tell me what you think about it?

I enjoyed reading it and I think it has alot of insight, I quote verses from it on sci-forums quite often in rough wording. mostly about the jew asking where god is,how god is and when god came from.


Peace, please read the quran and the lost books and scrolls, if you need help just ask or if you have questions.

 

[Bells]

No you wear whatever then deal off lol.

No.. the deal was you tutu it up and dance swan lake..

Dance foo! Dance!

 

[GeoffP]

It is an interfaith dispute. One branch of Islam banning the other. Much like the Sunni and Shiites are constantly at war.

Actually, that's a disturbing thing, Bells: one branch of Islam banning the other for being 'insufficiently Islamic'. It begs the question: if one thinks so little of one's co-religionists, what might they think about what Mi-Ya-Go calls idol worshippers? It's a bad sign.

The bigotry against Muslims in Europe an the US and even in Australia is overwhelming. You say nothing of that, do you? When Muslims are denied the right to build their Mosques on their land because of religious bias and bigotry, you don't say boo.

Well, there are far fewer hate crimes against Muslims in Europe and the US than against Jews, for example. I think it would be hard to call it 'overwhelming'. You could argue there was resentment, perhaps.

If you're not a Muslim, you're a kafir, if you don't like the term, you can invent a new one for "not a Muslim" - or you can become a Muslim.

Heh. Shades of the old choice.

So does Ireland, Italy, Israel, Denmark, Brazil, Finland, Malta (who have laws against the vilification of religion and against immorality), the Netherlands, and I think even Switzerland does as well.

I hate to intrude, but: and? Who has been arrested for apostacy or for offense against the majority religion in these nations?

I don't believe Michael's argument is that all Muslims in the world support the kind of hate laws that we're discussing: but there is sufficient support to pass and uphold them. This is a highly negative thing, and it should be discussed. If not - because Michael hasn't made a thread about the Falun Gong, for example - then any given poster should avoid discussing any given issue on the forums, since they have not made a corresponding thread about every other issue.

 

[Michael]

Thread Summary:

Well, SAM and EFC find words like Nigger and Kafir acceptable do to their theobotic programing. Bells probably doesn't, but can't bring herself to condemn it because she feels Whity has had it hard down there in South Africa - what with all the Niggers rising up and saying: Enough! Or whatever excuse works.

Gee Michael, how dare you attack White Supremacy: I mean Gosh, all them poor White farmers down there in Africa....

Please.

IOWs you seem to think that because Islamic ideology (and Muslims) are being vilified that therefor they get a pass on their Bigoted Ideology. Well they don't. What you fail to realize it Muslims are being vilified due to Islam. Again, there are problems with Muslims in Thailand, China, Europe, Africa (Hell Sudan just ceded), Israel, Russia, Singapore, the Philippines, even in Australian.

What, is everyone out to "get Muslims"? I hope you're not that Naive!



China banned Falun Gong because they threatened the Communist State. Up until then the Communist State explicitly supported the movement. Indonesian Sunni Muslims passed laws to ban Ahmadiyya Islam because of Religious Bigotry. Ahmadiyya Muslims do not threaten the State of Indonesia and barely make up a few slivers of a percentage point. Yet greater than 80% of Indonesians support making Ahmadiyya Islam a crime legally punishable in court. And, since 2010, it is.

That's Religious Bigotry.

The Irish Theists who teach their kids Catholics are evil or Protestants are evil are indeed Religious Bigots. This stems from the English (Protestant) coming into Ireland and taking the fertile farm land - leaving the indigenous (Catholics) with the infertile highlands. Catholic/Protestant Religious Bigotry is something we have dealt with in History. Europeans fought war overs over this - which is probably why our societies find terms like "Kafir" Bigoted and unacceptable.


The War in Iraq was for Oil. The GW Bush Crusades remark was to garnish support from Religious Bigots and has been roundly condemned. SO much so he retracted the comment. Unlike Indonesia whereby more than 80% of the public ARE more than supportive of the new Blasphemy Laws. Or in Pakistan where more than 90% support Blasphemy Laws and want to see an "unclean" Kafir mother of three hung. Or "moderate" Egypt where greater than 80% think apostasy should be punishable by death. Or Iran where converts are murdered. Or KSA were everything from Buddhist Temples to Synagogues are banned.

Why do you suppose Muslim States are so f8cking intolerant? Any ideas? Think maybe it has something to do with,,,,, Oh, I don't know, ISLAM?


Yes, Israel's policies on a Jewish State is Religious Bigotry mirroring those of their asinine neighbors.




Now, this is interesting. I spoke to an Iranian ex-Muslim atheist about this and he agreed: Yes, it's bigotry. Said it was due to core Islamic doctrine and that's what he was taught as a child. He also made the point Jews act the same and Christians used to be exactly the same. His theory is Islam is 600 years behind Christianity. SO there you go. SAM's belief is right about smack dab in the middle of the Dark Ages. Which makes good sense.

Now, considering his entire family is Muslim and he loves them, mostly his mother, dearly, I wonder how he can hold these views? Which according to Bells makes him a Bigot. I mean, how dare the Kafir take a stand and point out the Bigotry inherent in the word Nigger. Or, in his case, even think such thoughts!



Luckily, Islamic countries are going to become more secular. There's no doubt in that. Over time "Kafir" will be seen as the bigoted term it IS on par with Nigger. Obviously less and less Muslims, Christians and Jews will be religious over the coming decades. It's the way the world is moving. Probably my attacking this bigotry causes the Bigots to react in a way Bells did and SAM does. But, I still like to see the response because ultimately it's important to understand how people will respond and work towards introducing tolerance in small spoon sized amounts

Nevertheless, you shouldn't be scared to broach a subject due to the taboo of the subject mater.

 

[Bells]

Actually, that's a disturbing thing, Bells: one branch of Islam banning the other for being 'insufficiently Islamic'. It begs the question: if one thinks so little of one's co-religionists, what might they think about what Mi-Ya-Go calls idol worshippers? It's a bad sign.

Dude, your Church excommunicated a whole hospital for daring to not fire an ex nun (who was excommunicated) because she dared give permission to perform a life saving abortion on a patient (the mother was quite literally dying from the stress the pregnancy was putting on her heart). You want to talk about "bad signs"?

Seriously?

The Government of China banned a whole religion and jailed and tortured followers.

No one says boo about that. Why? Because it has nothing to do with Islam. What about the witch hunts across parts of Africa and the killing of Albinos and anyone deemed a witch and the Pope visiting there and talking about how the people need to try and combat witchcraft? No one says boo about that?

I doubt anyone would agree with the banning of religion. But if you wish to discuss religious bigotry, then discuss religious bigotry. Do not use it to focus attention on the phobia of Islam that some in this forum at least, seem to suffer from.

That is what bothers me about all of this.. The use of the plight of many people to further the hatred some here have against the religion. Michael doesn't give a shit about the Ahmadiyya. They are Muslims, so he doesn't care about them. Their plight has been ongoing for years and this is the first time in all his time on this forum that he brings it up. Why? Why now? Why not 2 years ago? Why not when he first joined? A few days ago James made a very pertinent comment about a thread created by Michael, which he subsequently closed:

"This thread obviously is not asking an honest question, but aims solely at bashing people of the Muslim faith by tarring them all with the same brush.

If we took the worst Christians as models of all Christians, or the worst atheists as models of all atheists, we could easily construct similar threads.

Please don't waste people's time in future, and be honest about the threads you create.

Closed."


(Source)
​

The same could be said for this thread. And he tried to warn me of it earlier and I stupidly believed that we could actually discuss religious bigotry. But we are not. This thread is serving as another platform to bash a religion and to paint them all with the same brush. I have asked Michael repeatedly to back up his claims that the majority of over 1.5 billion people support religious bigotry and he has failed to do so.

Well, there are far fewer hate crimes against Muslims in Europe and the US than against Jews, for example. I think it would be hard to call it 'overwhelming'. You could argue there was resentment, perhaps.

And?

Hate crimes are bad, full stop. Look at the protests outside of the so called 'Ground Zero Mosque'.. The abuse anyone who looks Muslim copped by the rabid crowd. Look at the laws passed in France, targetting specifically Muslim women and what they wear. I do not consider that to be resentment but outright bigotry.

What you call "resentment" is called a hate crime. Sometimes leading to people being murdered for being a "raghead"..

In 2000, the FBI received reports of 28 hate crimes against Muslims and Arabs in the US. In 2001, that number increased to 481.

Local statistics demonstrate even further the dramatic rise in hate crimes against Arabs and Muslims.

In Chicago, the police department reported only four anti-Muslim or anti-Arab hate crimes during the year 2000, but in just three months - September-November 2001 - there were 51 such crimes reported.

A US Justice Department study found that an estimated 75% of hate crimes go unreported, said Amardeep Singh of Human Rights Watch.

The hate crimes included the murder of at least three people.

Balbir Singh Sodhi, a 49-year-old Sikh and father of three, was killed as he planted flowers at his gas station four days after the 11 September attacks.

Police said that the alleged killer bragged at a local bar that he was going to "kill the ragheads responsible for 11 September".

Assaults and attacks on places of worship were widespread.

On 12 September 2001, 100 police officers stopped an angry mob as they marched on a mosque in Bridgeview Illinois.

The mob shouted slogans such as "Arabs go home" and hurled abuse at passers-by who looked Muslim or Arab.

Human Rights Watch says that authorities should have seen the backlash coming and done more to prevent crimes against Muslims and Arabs.


(Source)

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That was back in 2002. In 2008, the situation is not improved:

Acts of bias-driven violence against Muslims and their places of worship continued in 2007 and 2008. The more serious of these offenses included assaults—sometimes deadly—against Muslim religious leaders, ordinary Muslims, and those perceived to be Muslim. Documented and reported offenses also included cases of harassment and attacks on places of worship.

While attacks on Muslims may often be motivated by racist or ethnic bias, intolerance is increasingly directed at Muslim immigrants and other minorities expressly because of their religion. The complexity of the problem of anti-Muslim violence is further intensified by the multiple dimensions of discrimination that may occur in a single incident, with overlays of intolerance often based on the victim’s religion, ethnicity, and gender. Women who wear the ħijāb—a highly visible sign of a woman’s religious and cultural background—are particularly vulnerable to harassment and violence by those who wish to send a message of hatred. While law enforcement officials have responded to some of the more serious cases in several countries, underreporting remains a key problem, as most victims refrain from reporting attacks to the police.

Acts of aggression against Muslim individuals and places of worship are being committed in the context of a longstanding strain of political discourse in Europe that has projected immigrants in general and Muslims in particular as a threat not only to security but to European homogeneity and culture. The situation has worsened in recent years in the context of terrorist attacks and the response of governments to them.


2008 Hate Crime Survey
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Resentment huh?

I hate to intrude, but: and? Who has been arrested for apostacy or for offense against the majority religion in these nations?

One that comes to mind is in Finland I believe, in 2008.

Another is Germany in 2005 or 2006. Can't exactly be sure. Malta is the classic.. 162 arrested and charged in 3 months.

I don't believe Michael's argument is that all Muslims in the world support the kind of hate laws that we're discussing: but there is sufficient support to pass and uphold them. This is a highly negative thing, and it should be discussed. If not - because Michael hasn't made a thread about the Falun Gong, for example - then any given poster should avoid discussing any given issue on the forums, since they have not made a corresponding thread about every other issue.

Michael's argument is that the majority of over 1.5 billion people support religious bigotry and/or are religiously bigoted themselves. He has yet to supply any evidence to support his claims.

As I have said. I have absolutely no issue discussing religious bigotry, if it is done honestly and openly. But this is sly and snide and is used to attack a particular religion.

I have tried to discuss religious bigotry from other religions and he won't even address it. In fact, he ignored it completely. So I am done. I won't respond anymore as he either disregards what is being said or twists it around and I won't be a party to his continued rantings when he responds to me. In short, I have better things to do with my time than to pander to the rantings of an Islamaphobe.