Is relativity of simultaneity measurable?

Point to the post(s) or retract.

You don't deny ever calling anyone a "crank" for using the CMB pattern as an absolute frame of reference like they do in the "published mainstream paper" you linked to?

If you admit you have called people "cranks" for using that same CMB absolute reference frame, then there is no need for me to search all over the net because you will have confirmed it.

If you say you have never done so, then I will believe you and I will retract. So is it yes/no?

As to mainstream practice regarding CMB pattern being used as absolute reference frame:

Do you agree with it being used as such?
 
You don't deny ever calling anyone a "crank" for using the CMB pattern as an absolute frame of reference like they do in the "published mainstream paper" you linked to? If you admit you have called people "cranks" for using that same CMB absolute reference frame, then there is no need for me to search all over the net. If you say you have never done so, then I will believe you and I will retract.

I've never done it, so retract.

As to mainstream practice regarding CMB pattern being used as absolute reference frame: Do you agree with it being used as such?

The term introduced by M&S in their papers is "preferential", this is the more correct term.
 
I've never done it, so retract.



The term introduced by M&S in their papers is "preferential", this is the more correct term.

OK, if that is the truth (you would never lie, would you?), then I retract.

And you are OK with the CMB pattern being the "preferred" frame of reference as in "absolute" reference frame as they called it in your linked paper?
 
Do you deny ever calling anyone a "crank" for using that CMB pattern as an absolute reference frame? Just say whether you ever have or not and that will be that, yes?

I kinda hate to be taking Tach's point on this but.., RMS and SME are test theories and they assume the CMB as a rest frame of reference, which from where we are in the universe, works for tests of SR. Neither one asserts that the CMB in fact represents a rest frame. If they did they would not be test theories for SR that asserts there is no such absolute frame of rest.

There is a big difference between a test theory which begins with a stated assumption of a CMB associated rest frame and declaring that the CMB "IS" a rest frame...

Do you see the difference between the two?

It is not unlike SR in the weak field of GR. It works where it is relative to the test or measurement.

(If you don't understand what I was trying to say Tach, just ask.)
 
I kinda hate to be taking Tach's point on this but.., RMS and SME are test theories and they assume the CMB as a rest frame of reference, which from where we are in the universe, works for tests of SR. Neither one asserts that the CMB in fact represents a rest frame. If they did they would not be test theories for SR that asserts there is no such absolute frame of rest.

There is a big difference between a test theory which begins with a stated assumption of a CMB associated rest frame and declaring that the CMB "IS" a rest frame...

Do you see the difference between the two?

It is not unlike SR in the weak field of GR. It works where it is relative to the test or measurement.

(If you don't understand what I was trying to say Tach, just ask.)

That is the very point I was making about the linked paper from Tach. They specifically STATE and treat the CMB pattern as effectively absolute frame for the purposes of their theoretical data treatment. That is the point. It is based on assumptions and CMB patterns which may not be as precise as needed to say one way or another about what Tach claims in his discussion with Fednis and others.

And as to the secondary point I made about others being called "cranks" in the past (for doing exactly the same thing which Tach and mainstream also do, that is...), using the CMB pattern as a preferred/absolute frame for the purposes of their OP/theory discussion points:

So that secondary point is settled?: The CMB will from now on be accepted as a preferred/absolute frame for the purposes of anyone's OP/theory discussion points? And they will not be automatically called "cranks" for doing so? Good!
 
That is the very point I was making about the linked paper from Tach. They specifically STATE and treat the CMB pattern as effectively absolute frame for the purposes of their theoretical data treatment. That is the point. It is based on assumptions and CMB patterns which may not be as precise as needed to say one way or another about what Tach claims in his discussion with Fednis and others.

And as to the secondary point I made about others being called "cranks" in the past for doing exactly the same thing which Tach and mainstream also do for the purposes of their OP/theory, that is, using the CMB pattern as a preferred/absolute frame for the purposes of their own "Alternative" OP/theory discussion:

So that secondary point is settled?: The CMB will from now on be accepted as a preferred/absolute frame for the purposes of anyone's OP/theory discussion points? And they will not be automatically called "cranks" for doing so? Good!

Not an absolute frame of reference, a rest frame for the purpose of testing the assumptions of SR.

It is a limited case. They in no way even imply any absolute aspect. The CBM represents a background that can be assumed to be at rest for the purposes of the tests only. They do not even suggest that it is actually at rest... It obviously isn't!

Also keep in mind that it can be assumed to be a rest frame only from within those test theories. Unless what you are talking about adopts ALL of the assumptions of RMS or SME, the assumption of the CBM as a preferred or rest frame is not applicable.
 
Not an absolute frame of reference, a rest frame for the purpose of testing the assumptions of SR.

It is a limited case. They in no way even imply any absolute aspect. The CBM represents a background that can be assumed to be at rest for the purposes of the tests only. They do not even suggest that it is actually at rest... It obviously isn't!

Also keep in mind that it can be assumed to be a rest frame only from within those test theories. Unless what you are talking about adopts ALL of the assumptions of RMS or SME, the assumption of the CBM as a preferred or rest frame is not applicable.

I quote their own words:

"study of lightspeed anisotropy in the“absolute” inertial frame at rest defined by null dipole of the Cosmic Microwave Background(CMB) radiation"

Like I said, they treat it as the "absolute" frame for the purposes of their theoretical study and manipulation of data. So effectively "absolute frame" for the validity/domain of their study/purposes (which is what I question as to it supporting anything Tach has claimed in his discussion with Fednis). I hope that is clear where I am coming from on this point?

And also on the secondary point: If such a practice is ok for "mainstream researchers" to use CMB that way, then no one else should be called "crank" for attempting to do it too for the purposes of their own "alternative theory" discussion points? Yes?
 
And also on the secondary point: If such a practice is ok for "mainstream researchers" to use CMB that way, then no one else should be called "crank" for attempting to do it too for the purposes of their own "alternative theory" discussion points? Yes?

No. Cranks don't get "carte blanche". The "preferred frame" has a precisely defined meaning in the test theories, so it is to be used in the very specific way described in such theories.
 
No. Cranks don't get "carte blanche". The "preferred frame" has a precisely defined meaning in the test theories, so it is to be used in the very specific way described in such theories.

But the mainstream researchers whom you linked to as supporting you (but they didn't really) say they treated that CMB pattern as an "absolute" frame for the purposes of manipulating data theoretically. I quote their own words:
"study of lightspeed anisotropy in the“absolute” inertial frame at rest defined by null dipole of the Cosmic Microwave Background(CMB) radiation"

Why all the twisting of the truth, Tach? Is it because after all you have in the past called people "cranks" for doing exactly the same thing that your linked mainstream researchers have done, and you just can't stand it that you may have been wrong to do so?
 
But the mainstream researchers whom you linked to as supporting you (but they didn't really)

What makes you say that, RealityCheck? What is your understanding of the paper? Rather than wasting time with endless trolling, perhaps you can explain to the audience what do you understand from the paper.




Why all the twisting of the truth, Tach?

The truth is that you do not understand the meaning of the so - called "preferred" frame. What do you know about the description of this frame in the RMS papers, RealityCheck? Can you share with us?



Is it because after all you have in the past called people "cranks" for doing exactly the same thing that your linked mainstream researchers have done, and you just can't stand it?

The authors of the papers know what they are doing, while the cranks lurking in this forum do not.
You need to stop lying sooner or later, RealityCheck. You have no proof I ever caught any of the cranks in this forum telling porkies about the frame wrt which CMBR exhibits null dipole anisotropy, you just admitted it a few posts ago and you retracted the false claims, didn't you, RealityCheck?
 
What makes you say that, RealityCheck? What is your understanding of the paper? Rather than wasting time with endless trolling, perhaps you can explain to the audience what do you understand from the paper.






The truth is that you do not understand the meaning of the so - called "preferred" frame. What do you know about the description of this frame in the RMS papers, RealityCheck? Can you share with us?





You need to stop lying sooner or later, RealityCheck. You have no proof I ever done that, you just admitted.

You made the claim that the linked paper "supported" you in your discussion with Fednis48, but you haven't explained just how and where it supports you. The paper is theoretical manipulation of data based on a (their own words) "absolute" CMB frame context. It is up to you to show how that "exercise" supports you as you claim that linked paper does? Your claim; your responsibility to show where that "support" is in that "exercise" you linked to?

Preferred frame in any one context is exactly that. Whereas the linked paper you gave says it is an "absolute" CMB frame for the purposes of theoretical exercise which they describe but does not support what you claim it does. Please show where it does or admit to Fednis48 that you are just mindlessly linking to lots of papers without any real understanding of what they "show" or do not "show" regarding what you two are discussing.

Your claims of "support" from links, now show exactly and unambiguously to Fednis48 and everyone else exactly and unambiguously where that support is in that paper please?

More games and evasions and nebulous claims to being "correct" from you will not do. Thankyou.

Edit/: I just took your word that you never before anywhere! called someone a "crank" for using the CMB as mainstreamers use it in your linked paper. Did you tell the truth about never having called anyone a crank for doing that? I retracted based on your not lying about it. Yes?
 
You made the claim that the linked paper "supported" you in your discussion with Fednis48, but you haven't explained just how and where it supports you. The paper is theoretical manipulation of data based on a (their own words) "absolute" CMB frame context.

I see, you don't know what the paper is all about.



Preferred frame in any one context is exactly that.

I see, you have no clue what the RMS papers say about the "preferred" frame.

Thanks for playing, RealityCheck.
 
I see, you don't know what the paper is all about.





I see, you have no clue what the RMS papers say about the "preferred" frame.

Thanks for playing, RealityCheck.


What makes you say that? I just pointed out that it was a theoretical manipulation of data using the (in their own words) "absolute" CMB reference frame for its purposes. What more can you add to that which you can point to that "supports" your claims to Fednis48? That is the question. Haven't you read and understood your own "reference" there? You want others to support their claims, but now you don't want to support yours, and try to shift the onus onto others? Double Standards again?
 
I just pointed out that it was a theoretical manipulation of data using the (in their own words) "absolute" CMB reference frame for its purposes.

RealityCheck,

"The one-way experiment, performed at the GRAAL facility of the European Synchrotron Radiation Facility (ESRF) in Grenoble, reported results on the light speed anisotropy by Compton scattering of laser photons on high-energy electrons."

Experiments aren't "theoretical manipulations". You have these bees under your bonnet that experiments are "simulations", "manipulations", etc. They aren't. True scientists collect real data via real instruments and present the results of their measurements.


You want others to support their claims, but now you don't want to support yours, and try to shift the onus onto others?

I would never dream of "shifting the onus onto others". Especially onto you, RealityCheck.
 
Undefined,

"The one-way experiment, performed at the GRAAL facility of the European Synchrotron Radiation Facility (ESRF) in Grenoble, reported results on the light speed anisotropy by Compton scattering of laser photons on high-energy electrons."

Experiments aren't "theoretical manipulations". You have this bee under your bonnet that experiments are "simulations", "manipulations", etc. They aren't. True scientists collect real data via real instruments and present the results of their measurements.




I would never dream of "shifting the onus onto others". Especially onto you, Undefined.


I quote from that paper:

We show now that our theory suggests the light speed
anisotropy with respect to the azimuthal angle in an “ab-
solute” reference frame.
To understand the azimuthal
distribution of the GRAAL data,...


Like I said, they are manipulating data according to their theory based on anisotropy with reference to their "absolute frame" reference for their theoretical treatment of data.

Now, can you "show" exactly where and how anything in that (your) referenced paper "supports" your claims to Fednis48 and answers his questions to you? That is all you need to do to prove your claim/point with Fednis48 and everyone, isn't it?
 
Like I said, they are manipulating data according to their theory based on anisotropy with reference to their "absolute frame" reference for their theoretical treatment of data.

RealityCheck,

The authors are real scientists, not some hacks, they aren't "manipulating" anything. You need to get those bees from under your bonnet and stop disparaging stuff that you clearly do not comprehend. Your posts are exactly like Farsight's.
 
Undefined,

The authors are real scientists, not some hacks, they aren't "manipulating" anything. You need to get those bees from under your bonnet.

As soon as they invoke some "absolute frame" and a "theory framework" for "interpreting" the data, they are doing what I pointed out they are doing.

But no matter what, you still haven't pointed out to Fednis48 and everyone else exactly where and how that (your)referenced paper "supports" your claims made? Can you show exactly and unambiguously where and how they do that in that paper which you linked to as "support" instead of answering Fednis48's questions? Without any more games and distractions or evasions?
 
As soon as they invoke some "absolute frame" and a "theory framework" for "interpreting the data, they are doing what I pointed out they are doing.

RealityCheck,

It is clear that you do not understand that this was a real experiment, conducted by real scientists. Show some respect, ok?

But no matter what, you still haven't pointed out to Fednis48 and everyone else exactly where and how that (your)referenced paper "supports" your claims made? Can you show exactly and unambiguously where and how they do that? Without any more games and distractions or evasions?

Suffice to say, that unlike you, Fednis48 understood that he's taken a mortal blow, in karate terms, and that the paper proves his fringe claim wrong. This is why he left the thread. What the paper demonstrates, is obvious to anyone knowing physics: a real experiment , constraining OWLS anisotropy. I do not expect you to be in the same category, of people understanding the paper, so, in classical RealityCheck style, you will troll to no end because this is all you do.
 
Undefined,

It is clear that you do not understand that this was a real experiment, conducted by real scientists. Show some respect, ok?



Suffice to say, that unlike you, Fednis48 understood that he's taken a mortal blow, in karate terms, and that the paper proves his fringe claim wrong. This is why he left the thread. What the paper demonstrates, is obvious to anyone knowing physics: a real experiment , constraining OWLS anisotropy. I do not expect you to be in the same category, of people understanding the paper, so, in classical Undefined style, you will troll to no end because this is all you do.

Fednis48 just got sick of your evasions and mindless games. Didn't you catch that?

Now what experiment have the researchers in your paper "conducted"? They merely employed a "theoretical framework" based on an "absolute frame" to "interpret data" which indicated lightspeed anisotropy depending on azimuthal orientation with respect to their "absolute frame" assumption.

So, can you "show" Fednis48 and everyone exactly and unambiguously where and how that paper "supports" your claim? Why do you not do that instead of playing games?

If you can do that little thing (and answer Fednis48's questions), I'm sure everyone will be only too happy to concede your point/claim?
 
If you can do that little thing (and answer Fednis48's questions), I'm sure everyone will be only too happy to concede your point/claim?

RealityCheck,

You cannot "concede" because you can never understand what this experiment is all about and because you make your living trolling websites.
Now the experiment constrains OWLS anisotropy via an experiment based on Compton scattering. The measurements have been taken at the GRAAL facility and the experimental data has been fitted in order to be compared against a parametrization in $$\zeta, \lambda$$ of the one way light speed $$c_{\gamma i}$$. This process resulted into placing constraints of the order of $$10^{-13}$$ for $$\zeta$$ and $$10^{-14}$$ for $$\lambda$$. To make the blow even harder, the paper lists a plethora of other papers constraining OWLS anisotropy. Here are a few (not all):

[2] V. G. Gurzadyan et al., Mod. Phys. Lett. A 20, 19 (2005).
[3] V. G. Gurzadyan et al., Il Nuovo Cimento B 122, 515(2007).
[4] V. G. Gurzadyan et al., arXiv:1004.2867, 2010.
[14] E. Riis et al., Phys. Rev. Lett. 60, 81 (1988).
[15] Z. Bay, J. A. White, Phys. Rev. Lett. 62, 841 (1989).
[16] T. P. Krisher et al., Phys. Rev. D 42, 731 (1990)

Here are some more:

Cialdea, Lett. Nuovo Cimento 4 (1972), pg 821.
Champeny et al., Phys. Lett. 7 (1963), pg 241.
Champeney, Isaak and Khan, Proc. Physical Soc. 85, pg 583 (1965).
Isaak et al., Phys. Bull. 21 (1970), pg 255.
Turner and Hill, Phys. Rev. 134 (1964), B252.
Gagnon, Torr, Kolen, and Chang, Phys. Rev. A38 no. 4 (1988), pg 1767.
T.W. Cole, Mon. Not. R. Astr. Soc. (1976), 175 93P-96P.
Ragulsky, Phys. Lett. A, 235 (1997), pg 125.
S.Schiller, P.Antonini, M.Okhapkin , Phys. Rev. Lett., 95, (2005)
Antonini, P., Okhapkin, M., Goklu, E., and Schiller, S., Phys. Rev. A 71, 050101(2005)
 
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