Is Rape Natural?

R

redarmy11

Registered Senior Member
From this thread:

Bells said:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=1186583#post1186583


Your words and arguments are so primitive that I am sometimes questioning whether you actually believe the drivel you are spouting. If it was human nature, then every man would be a rapist. And every woman for that matter. Do you think it's human nature for a person to rape a child because they found that child to be sexually appealing or somehow provoking them? Or does that individual have a problem? Is it human nature to rape? If it is, then you would be a rapist, so would everyone in the world. Yet not every man or woman rapes. Why is that? Not every man rapes a woman because he finds her to be dressed provocatively. How can that be? After all, you've just made the claim that it is human nature for a provocatively dressed woman to attract rape, why aren't they all raped? Why aren't all men raping women they might find to be sexually provocative? Do you rape a woman if she's dressed provocatively?
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Is it human nature to rape? If child rapists aren't obeying their own natures... what are they obeying precisely? I think it's a very interesting topic - not something that can be dismissed in a single paragraph, and worthy of it's own thread. If only Satyr were around to lay this out eloquently and logically, in far more words than is strictly necessary. But he isn't. So my collection of confused and jumbled thoughts on the matter will have to do. I'm sure that all of the deeply penetrating insights that will be your contributions will quickly improve things.

So: on the one hand, man is a social species, dependent on his fellow man for his sense of self, his emotional well-being, often for his very survival. On the other hand, man is an animal like all the others, driven by need and desire - the need to eat, the need to drink, the need to breathe... and the need to procreate. Thousands of years of civilisation have taught us what is acceptable and what isn't; what is beneficial to our society and what is harmful. Laws have been developed to punish those whose actions are thought to do our society harm.

But: what if we were to cast off all the millennia of cultural progress and return to our 'natural state'? Would we still be so 'moral' in our treatment of others if there were no laws to govern what we can get away with and what we can't? Rape appears to be quite common throughout the animal kingdom. Lone alpha males of many species make it their business to drive away the males of a social group and impregnate the females. Without any laws or morals to govern their actions, need and desire are everything. Are we so different? When a male cat mounts a female in an alleyway does the female have to give it's consent? Is it good manners for the male cat to seek it? Perhaps all of the Sciforums members who are having such a hard time understanding that RAPE IS BAD are just throwbacks to an earlier time - living curiosities who've somehow managed to unlearn everything that the Ancient Greeks taught them about what it means to be human. Or maybe not:

http://www.bigeye.com/sexeducation/ancientgreece.html

Rape was common in Ancient Greece and seen by men as a "right of domination" by Greek men. Zeus, the god, was the
master rapist who raped many women. He raped Leda in the form of a swan. He raped Danae disguised as the rain.
He raped Alkmen disguised as her own husband. Zeus even raped other men, such as Ganymede. To the common man,
they usually staked out water wells and then raped the women when they went to get water. It was also common to
rape prostitutes, slaves, and their own wives.
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Edit: I've had a PM from Bells. I just want to make it clear that no criticism of her is implied in using her post as the opening comments. I like Bells - she's a smart woman and I've got nothing but the greatest respect for her opinions. It's just that I feel that this and similar comments need further exploration, and the thread that they came from wasn't the right place to do it.
 
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I find it peculiar that those who are supposedly intelligent can't grasp the basics of something so obvious. Murder is natural too, should i be able to murder anyone i dislike or hate, angry, be jealous of etc? The more you evolve, the more you realize you wouldn't be wondering this premise as base emotions are primitive but the higher functioning brain lets us know there is more to consider. Its called awareness. Love is a higher emotion, then you have more emotional responsibility with this gift in yourself and in others to make a better society and then it goes from there. Its actually quite simple.
 
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Are you saying that if you have an urge therefore it is natural and should be carried out? But then going along this line of logic you may come up against what's called resistance because another force is resisting or being hurt in some way. Thats where the further evolution starts, don't we? After all, as you are aware we all do depend on eachother and its not all about the desires of one. Or do you believe we should stay in a perpetual state of first grade. Awareness? What? Is it not obvious, the awareness that it is wrong and find solutions. Or should we stay in a stupid cycle, or look to the past or take our cue from monkey culture or return to the primordial soup. Are you kidding me. First rape is destructive which is much easier to detroy than build up. It is harder to build a positive relationship with another, which takes sympathy, empathy, understanding anothers need and higher brain function to achieve this than just brutally taking what you want but its inferior because it is shortsighted. Happy and healthy people make more productive and willing participants in a community and civilization. Again, very obvious. Your using selective examples from the animal kingdom is misleading because mainly the male and female pick their mates. That is why using the example of human interaction, those who are emotionally immature or weak tend to pick those who are less powerful or not their equal as they cannot or will not meet the standards of a genuine relationship, its easier as in preying on children or rape of others but this creates problems that create a negative cycle.
 
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iam said:
Are you saying that if you have an urge therefore it is natural and should be carried out? But then going along this line of logic you may come up against what's called resistance because another force is resisting or being hurt in some way. Thats where the further evolution starts, don't we? After all, as you are aware we all do depend on eachother and its not all about the desires of one. Or do you believe we should stay in a perpetual state of first grade. Awareness? What? Is it not obvious, the awareness that it is wrong and find solutions. Or should we stay in a stupid cycle, or look to the past or take our cue from monkey culture or return to the primordial soup. Are you kidding me. First rape is destructive which is much easier to detroy than build up. It is harder to build a positive relationship with another, which takes sympathy, empathy, understanding anothers need and higher brain function to achieve this than just brutally taking what you want but its inferior because it is shortsighted. Happy and healthy people make more productive and willing participants in a community and civilization. Again, very obvious.
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So is that the final edit, iam? Am I still clueless? Just kidding.

You've providing some very interesting insights into how suppressing our base nature benefits us, as individuals and as a society. According to this view, it's not just a question of morality or fear of punishment that prevents us from submitting to our most primal urges. Rather, mutual respect and understanding are the glue that bind us together, with real benefits for us as a society and for our advancement as a species. We've advanced far beyond the primordial soup and, along the way, internalised certain ways of behaving that prevent us from harm. At the back of our minds is the knowledge that, by harming others, we're inviting others to do harm to us.

Interesting stuff. As for me? I have no opinion. I'm just interested in what the rest of you think.
 
redarmy11 said:
Rather, mutual respect and understanding are the glue that bind us together, with real benefits for us as a society and for our advancement as a species.
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Hmm, I have to disagree with that statement. For one thing, I don't believe that a person can actually have "mutual respect and understanding" for someone that they've never met or don't know. Oh, sure, they can SAY that they do, but I don't believe it.

For another thing, if you think that humans are so grand with their mutual respect for one another, just imagine what would happen if all social laws and rules were eliminated. Just how long do you think that "mutual respect and understanding" would last in, say, New York City? Even as it is now, with all of the millions of laws, people are still killing and raping and robbing at horrendous rates. But without laws and rules...?

redarmy11 said:
We've advanced far beyond the primordial soup and, along the way, internalised certain ways of behaving that prevent us from harm.
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Nope! It's not "internalized", it's EX-ternalized by society's rules and laws, complete with proscribed punishments. As I said earlier, if you think humans are nice guys, just imagine New York City without laws, rules and cops. Scary, ain't it?

You've given humans waaaaayyyy too much credit for what laws, rules and cops have done.

Baron Max
 
Most men have a rape fantasy, the law prohibits it though as does moral decency, but the fantasy exists non the less. This knowledge does not sit well with women obviously, but as most men do have self control and moral decency it is hence under control. But in certain circumstances the most primitive side of mens psyche can take control.

Once when just 15yrs old, my pal was set upon by a bunch of male friends, they had her on the floor, raised her skirt and were fondling her. I pulled them off her one by one and booted a few in the balls. She got up and dressed herself. These WERE friends, they were young youths and they got out of control, one started and the others followed. Are they rapist deviant natures, all of them? No. BUT if I hadn't been there no doubt she may have been gang raped. It would only have taken ONE bad immoral lad to set off a chain reaction. Thus they would then have all ebcome rapists with everything associated with it. I do NOT condone rape but the mechanics of it are not strictly related to evil natures.

This is not the first time I have seen youths pile onto a girl like this.
 
Theoryofrelativity said:
Most men have a rape fantasy, the law prohibits it though as does moral decency, but the fantasy exists non the less. This knowledge does not sit well with women obviously, ...
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Hmm, according to most psychiatrists and psychologists, the rape fantasy is one of the more prominent fantasies for women. Yes, you read that right ....it's a prominent fantasy ...FOR WOMEN.

Baron Max
 
The distinction of "rape" is not "natural". The sanctity of the individual and the right to self-governance are, like many defining aspects of civilized society, evolutions of concepts in history. Before the idea of rape arose, it was just sexual intercourse.
 
^Really?! i didn't know that..huh. You said it, those concepts ARE a product of evolution BECAUSE we realize we are more complicated ceatures capable of choice and preferences, not just blindly controlled by instinct.
 
Iam said:

BECAUSE we realize we are more complicated ceatures capable of choice and preferences, not just blindly controlled by instinct.
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And that is one of the most important aspects of humanity.
 
Rape is assault and violence. It is NOT natural. It is actually a manifestation of one of the basest instincts that humans possess, on a par with murder imo, and is not that common even in animals. The majority of mammals, birds and even fish, go through courtship rituals before the female will allow procreation with a particular male. Even if it's not courtship in an obvious sense in some animals, the female will allow only the strongest suitor to mate, after he has scared off the competition.
 
As I understand the data the "rape fantasy" that women imagine is very different from the reality of a real rape. The fantasy is more about having forbidden sex without the responsibility of going against social values and any stigma they may impose.
Rape may be very "natural" to the rapist but victims have not reported rape to be a "natural" experience.
 
Tablariddim:

Although I can't cite the text, I once read in a college anthropology book a study by a feminist social scientist asserting rape among fruit flies. (I've mentioned this bit in other posts related to other topics, so if it sounds familiar ....) A weaker male will attack a stronger, thereby gaining some of the stronger's scent of food. The scent deceptively lures a female ....

I reject the claim of "rape" among fruit flies, in no small part for the distinctions of our humanity.

However, watching a mother chimpanzee fend off males seeking to mount her sexually immature female offspring, and watching the offspring's response, I can't say something akin to rape does not occur in nature.

Two cents. Or so says me, y'know.
 
I didn't say it never occured, however, as you pointed out, the mother chimp was fending off the would be rapist, which shows that she obviously knew that it wasn't right.
 
I think some people are confusing natural with what's good or acceptable. Just because something's bad or 'to be frowned upon' doesn't mean that it's not natural. Nature isn't all spring flowers and honeybees, is it. It has a dark side too.

tiassa: your excellent point about rape being a modern concept has been well-noted.
 
its not a new concept, it just now has a name attached to it. you see the sun in the morning and the moon at night, it is what it is identified or not.
 
redarmy11 said:
I think some people are confusing natural with what's good or acceptable. Just because something's bad or 'to be frowned upon' doesn't mean that it's not natural. Nature isn't all spring flowers and honeybees, is it. It has a dark side too.

tiassa: your excellent point about rape being a modern concept has been well-noted.
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Here are some statistics:
* Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted.
* One in six American women are victims of sexual assault, and one in 33 men.
* In 2004-2005, there were an average annual 200,780 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault.
* About 44% of rape victims are under age 18, and 80% are under age 30.
* Since 1993, rape/sexual assault has fallen by over 69%.
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http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html


So it's certainly widespread.

And apparently the fall in rape incidence-
Academic claims rape cases down because porn use up
Christian Avard
Published: Friday September 22, 2006
An academic has claimed to RAW STORY that a decline in reported rape of 85% in the past 25 years can be tied to an increase in pornography consumption.
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http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Porn_up_rape_down_0922.html


What do you think?
 
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