Is purposeless torture moral?

Greatest I am

Greatest I am

Valued Senior Member
Is purposeless torture moral?

Most governments seem to believe that torture is an immoral and evil thing and most do not have what we would call a torture chambers. Let’s ignore Guantanamo Bay and other exceptions please.

Religions do not seem to agree with this because religions promise a place of torture for evil souls and some believers will even drop a church that preaches that there is no hell. It seems that some believers want badly that there be this place of purposeless torture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv_rmQuagpY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baGwwma5VZo&feature=relmfu

Hell is a place of purposeless torture and pain. It is used purely for revenge retribution and cruelty.

Some say we choose hell and some think that God, as our judge, sentences us to it. Some think it is eternal while some think that it and its occupants are eventually dumped into a lake of fire and destroyed. A long period of torture to some and a short term of torture to others.

From a moral standpoint, to even create such a place would not be moral.

Is it moral for God to use or let others choose to use his torture chamber called hell or the lake of fire?

Regards
DL
 
Hell is a place of purposeless torture and pain. It is used purely for revenge retribution and cruelty.
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If it is used for revenge, retribution, and cruelty, then it is not purposeless. And, really, if torture is purposeless, then it by default be immoral, as any argument for the morality of torture would have to speak to its serving a greater good. A better question would be whether torture of any sort is moral. Or just ask if people think the concept of eternal damnation is immoral, since that's what you're really talking about anyway. No need to obfuscate the matter with odd and inaccurate phrasing.
 
JDawg said:
If it is used for revenge, retribution, and cruelty, then it is not purposeless.
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Perhaps but once these are assuaged or satisfied, then to continue it would fall back into immoral.

And, really, if torture is purposeless, then it by default be immoral, as any argument for the morality of torture would have to speak to its serving a greater good. A better question would be whether torture of any sort is moral. Or just ask if people think the concept of eternal damnation is immoral, since that's what you're really talking about anyway. No need to obfuscate the matter with odd and inaccurate phrasing.
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The phrasing I blame on being French.

I also think that we could build a scenario that would say that yes, there may be instances where it could be moral but it would have to include known facts to the torturer and a damned good justification for doing so.

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
Perhaps but once these are assuaged or satisfied, then to continue it would fall back into immoral.
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Yes, but since the penalty for unbelief is eternal damnation, there is no way to meet this condition. What we should really be asking is if the concept of eternal damnation for a thing such as unbelief (or any of the other trifles that earns one a ticket to Hell) is moral. To that, I would say no. The typical theist response would be something to the effect of arguing that the action is moral because it is done by God, but this is a cop-out; there is no reason to believe that a divine creator would imbue its creation with a sense of morality only to have it rendered useless in matters pertaining to the creator itself.

I also think that we could build a scenario that would say that yes, there may be instances where it could be moral but it would have to include known facts to the torturer and a damned good justification for doing so.
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There are many things to consider, including how reliable the information tends to be from torture victims (is victim the right word if it's a terrorist being tortured for information?), but I think there certainly could be moral justification. If hurting one person could save hundreds, or thousands, for example, and the person is leaving the torturer no recourse in obtaining the pertinent information.
 
They may be aware if their lack of apologetics here is an indicator.
Perhaps they are learning after all.

Regards
DL
 
Hell is man's own doing, whether conceived of as the individual's need to atone (feel they deserve punishment) in an afterlife or the bad consequences of poor choices in this one.
 
If given the opportunity the pervert will perverse themselves forever, just like the faithful will remain faithful forever.
 
We are supposed to forgive. God cannot find it in his heart to forgive. Fucking hypocrisy, case closed (on Christianity).
 
Believe said:
Ahhhh, ever heard of confession?
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Catholic foible. So protestants are shit out of luck. So god forgives any sin at all, as long as one repents? Sounds like a lot hinges on a few mumbled words, that anyone can really mean, just in case, as they are dying. Sounds like big hairy balls to me.
 
universaldistress said:
We are supposed to forgive. God cannot find it in his heart to forgive. Fucking hypocrisy, case closed (on Christianity).
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Hypothetical scenario: I forgive you for your greed. 10 years later you are still greedy. Now what? God, imo, will put FINAL judgement on us all.
 
Greatest I am said:
Is purposeless torture moral?
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Yes. Everything God does is moral, he defines what morality means. This is what religious people believe, that if there is no God, there is no benchmark for morality. So whatever he does (and teaches us by example) must therefore be moral.
 
Welcome back spidergoat. Good answer. Incontrovertible. I suppose one comeback could be "God has a purpose" in which case your answer trumps the question "Is purposeful torture moral?" with the same resounding yes, which is a huge paradox for the moralizer to deal with.
 
spidergoat said:
Yes. Everything God does is moral, he defines what morality means. This is what religious people believe, that if there is no God, there is no benchmark for morality. So whatever he does (and teaches us by example) must therefore be moral.
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Welcome home, spider. You didn't get a fair shake, in my opinion, so it's nice to see you back where you belong.

I've always thought it a troubling concept, this idea that something is moral simply because God says so. Consider the terrible war crimes committed at his command in the Old Testament. Even by his own standard, these are immoral acts; it's almost as if he forgets himself in a moment of blood lust. But to the point, how can one find a moral center in God if God has been shown to permit everything, so long as the command comes from him?
 
Knowledge91 said:
If given the opportunity the pervert will perverse themselves forever, just like the faithful will remain faithful forever.
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You're not French are you? You mean "the perverse will pervert" etc.

OK let's get this straight. Hell is eternal punishment for the perverse and without a Hell, there would be perverts in Heaven?

I think you're on to something. Animal House II: The Swingin' Son of a Preacher Man featuring the Barenaked Ladies.

I nominate spidergoat to play the role of the tolerant God who is conflicted over the paradoxical possibility of admitting a sleazebag into Heaven vs the moral dilemma of creating Hell, an eternal purposeless torture.

In the film it will be revealed that God has horns, and the devil, Mr. Clean has an earring, a white T shirt with a religious logo on it and a gold tooth. Maybe a Mohawk to make him look credible.

You know, knowledge91, if I were a script writer, I would be quote-mining you VERBATIM. You do come up with some wild and crazy stuff. I mean, what I say might be called repugnant, but man - you seem so sincere - I'm just winging it!
 
Imagine dividing the entire human population over time into Heaven, or Hell based on their personality traits such as ambition, grace, and pride going up, and ignorance, and temptation going down. What more torture is needed than to live with the worst people, and nothing but bad people to ever exist for all eternity?
 
But according to the book that defines the terms of the deal, good atheists also go to hell, and the unbaptized, and all believers in other gods.
 
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