Is Pacifism Ethical?

Is Pacifism an ethical position?


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So inaction in preventing a crime is never wrong? Can pacifists call the police if the police will do violence? If so, then it's not really pacifism, it's cowardice or selfishness (wanting to remain innocent so you can get into heaven).

In Mahayana Buddhism, they believe that a Bodhisattva (someone committed to the liberation of all living beings before themselves) may and should even kill someone who intends to kill others (a Bodhisattva is aware of other people's intentions).
And this is in a tradition that is committed to non-violence.
 
Then you can say the same for life in prison, or any prison for that matter. Very simplistic and unrealistic.
But life in prison is a more civilized alternative to murdering him for revenge! If you feel that a person needs to be removed from society because you can't trust him not to commit the same crime again, then at least try for the most civilized way of doing that. Killing his whole tribe is the least civilized, followed by torture, then humane execution, and finally inarceration. One of its many advantages is that it is reversible if you discover that you screwed up and he's not really guilty. DNA analysis typically exonerates one-tenth of the prisoners on Death Row. What do you suppose the next generation of technology will do?

Imprisonment also has the advantage of not leaving us with blood on our hands. Killing someone has to be left as an absolute last resort, the only means available on short notice to defend yourself or your family against egregious violence, or to defend civilization against wanton destruction. Fighting off the perpetrator, tying him up, waiting for the police to put him in handcuffs, locking him in a cell where he can't do any more harm, putting him on trial, watching your wife and children be embarrassed to tears under cross-examination by clever attorneys, and then killing him anway? That's nothing more than barbarism disguised as law.
I always laugh 'cause the people who espouse that fib are the first to look to cut someone *alls of when they walk across the lawn or scratch their car...usually.
I have no idea who you're talking about. Certainly none of the pacifists I know.

In any case, while most of us are capable of being roused to violence and feeling regret afterwards, we hope that we could not be roused to the level of lethal violence (or mayhem and mutilation, in your example) except in response to a threat of lethal violence against us.

I've never hit anyone in my life. And strangely enough, no one has ever hit me. What goes around comes around.
a juror should not have the inclination\emotion of "revenge" or they should not be on a jury and will most likely be eliminated. Goes with being impartial.
I'm not talking about the individual juror. Besides, the jury only determines guilt or innocence, it's the court that determines the punishment in most cases. I'm talking about society as a whole. Whenever you get people riled up as a group they are far more likely to lose their grip on civilization than they are when they're surrounded by civilized people. That's how wars start. Entire populations lose their veneer of civilization at once, after listening to the rabble-rousing speeches of their demagogues.
 
I'm a pacifist most of the time. But I will defend myself to the point of killing someone if necessary.
This is not pacifism but this is probably the norm. If this is the norm why all the wars and violence then? Where is the disconnect?

Yup.

"We kill people who kill people because killing people is wrong"

But how do you define defense?

Apparently, there are limits to the discussion of ethics, limits to what such a discussion can accomplish.
 
In Mahayana Buddhism, they believe that a Bodhisattva (someone committed to the liberation of all living beings before themselves) may and should even kill someone who intends to kill others (a Bodhisattva is aware of other people's intentions).
And this is in a tradition that is committed to non-violence.

Interesting. And you might know that the Japanese military was indoctrinated in Buddhism during WWII.
 
One aspect of the death penalty that most people don't think about is it's use to get killers to allocate and confess to a lessor charge of murder 2 which doesn't carry the death penalty. Usually they are also required to make a full confession and tell where all the bodies are, which is very important to the family members. Without the death penalty you take away a very valuable tool that not only saves the taxpayer a great deal of money, because confessions are a lot cheaper than trials and there is no chance a jury will let a murder go free.
I don't think that is true ? Murderers are a good risk to let out. Yeah I had a murderer work with Me before. He got out twice from his murder charges . First went to work with Me after he got out from his first murder conviction. Worked about 6 months and we didn't see him for about eight years . He had just got out from his 2nd murder rap and came looking for a job . We hired him . That lasted about 6 months and we caught him stealing money out of customers pockets , wallets and vehicles. We could not catch him physically so Me step Father come out with a bat in his hand and said . All Right Junior wheres the money . He confessed and he had taken it and taped it to the bottom side of a utility tool box on a truck . He put it there so he could retrieve it at a later date. Just in case he got caught the money would not be on him . WE had to let the poor thieving , murderer go. I wonder if he is still alive ?
 
Spider, You pointed out why violence may be deemed ethical and then how pacifism may be deemed unethical. Very few people are purist except maybe Empty Sky (pure, unadulterated rascist), but you realize that using extreme situations does not make violence more ethical than pacifism.

There are other methods to obfuscate violence besides pacifism.
http://endingmaleviolence.blogspot.com/2010/02/mosuo-matriarchy-men-live-better-where.html

In the above society I wonder if pacifism and violence is even a topic of discussion?
 
I don't think that is true ? Murderers are a good risk to let out. Yeah I had a murderer work with Me before. He got out twice from his murder charges . First went to work with Me after he got out from his first murder conviction. Worked about 6 months and we didn't see him for about eight years . He had just got out from his 2nd murder rap and came looking for a job . We hired him . That lasted about 6 months and we caught him stealing money out of customers pockets , wallets and vehicles. We could not catch him physically so Me step Father come out with a bat in his hand and said . All Right Junior wheres the money . He confessed and he had taken it and taped it to the bottom side of a utility tool box on a truck . He put it there so he could retrieve it at a later date. Just in case he got caught the money would not be on him . WE had to let the poor thieving , murderer go. I wonder if he is still alive ?

I think you took the law into your own hands, passed sentence and the guy will never be seen again. I've seen some very good movies based on that theme. I think one was called Vigilante Justice. Hey! You gave him a fair chance and he blew it, what else could you do?
 
Spider, You pointed out why violence may be deemed ethical and then how pacifism may be deemed unethical. Very few people are purist except maybe Empty Sky (pure, unadulterated rascist), but you realize that using extreme situations does not make violence more ethical than pacifism.

There are other methods to obfuscate violence besides pacifism.
http://endingmaleviolence.blogspot.com/2010/02/mosuo-matriarchy-men-live-better-where.html

In the above society I wonder if pacifism and violence is even a topic of discussion?

I never said that violence is always more ethical than not using violence. There are certainly situations, as Ghandi and MLK have proved, where non-violence is more powerful. My point was more about the absolutist (extreme) position of pacifism that states that violence is never ethical.

As far as your link, I've seen girl fights, they are just as nasty and mean as men. I would only agree that empowerment of women would go a long way to making a better society.
 
Spidergoat
As far as your link, I've seen girl fights, they are just as nasty and mean as men. I would only agree that empowerment of women would go a long way to making a better society.

Girl fights:
Brings to mind all those pieces of weave and bits of nails in the Albertson's parking lot I used to see!:p

How much empowerment?
 
Here's a pacifist dilemma for you. You have a chance to go back in time and kill Hitler before he can start WW2. By doing that you will not only save all the millions of lives lost during the war but all the lives of any children that would have resulted from those saved lives and their children also.

Only you can do this (for whatever reason), if you don't do it you will become solely responsible for all those deaths and the children never born. You can't deny responsibility because you are the last and only chance to stop the war.

You are a pacifist, but not killing Hitler is the same as you personally killing millions. What do you do, and can you live with your choice?
 
Hitler didn't establish the National Socialist Party. WWII would have happened anyway. But anyway, a pacifist could go back in time before Hitler was born and give his mother a hysterectomy. Or go to when he was a young man and give him some LSD. Or get his ass into art school in Paris.
 
Hitler didn't establish the National Socialist Party. WWII would have happened anyway. But anyway, a pacifist could go back in time before Hitler was born and give his mother a hysterectomy. Or go to when he was a young man and give him some LSD. Or get his ass into art school in Paris.

Lol, good answers!
 
Spider your Gandhi v hitler ignored one thing. It started with the assumption that to win was more important than what tactics were used. But if we look at beneficence and justice we have to ask were the lives lost during the war more, less or the same as if everyone had just surended. I would contend that concidering the massive number of casulties on both sides its hard to suggest that more would have died without any resistance. Further more concidering the history or eroupe (the number of times countries were conquered) and what's happerning currently in Cuba its also quite hard to suggest that any bad conquenses would have been eternal. Basically its a very long bow to draw to claim that apart from English and French being dominant languages insted of German, that the world is an equally better place now concidering the lives lost as it would have been with no resistance. Further more, if violence trumped non-violence then we would see a trend favoring dictators and those willing to use any means and democracy and civil society would never have started.
 
Hitler didn't establish the National Socialist Party. WWII would have happened anyway. But anyway, a pacifist could go back in time before Hitler was born and give his mother a hysterectomy. Or go to when he was a young man and give him some LSD. Or get his ass into art school in Paris.

The way you side stepped the intent of my question makes me think you used to be a politician.
 
Pacifism seems to be unethical when it comes to self-defense. If we consider pacifism and reasonable surrendering to be different.
 
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Hitler didn't establish the National Socialist Party. WWII would have happened anyway.

LOL...the dumbest thing i have heard yet about ww2. I suppose it would be interesting to know how you reached this conclusion but not interested in fantasies right now.

Hitler mad the "Party" what it turned into. Parties in and of themselves cannot be bad, only what they become. It is not far fetched to see radical changes even in the span of a few years...i really dont know about this particular party but could have been much different before Hitler became the leader.
 
I think it would have developed along the same lines. In fact, without Hitler, they might not have started two fronts, and they might have won.
 
I think it would have developed along the same lines.

Maybe...maybe not. Just depends on the leadership so there is good chance it may not have turned into what it did under Hitler. Still does not explain where you got the other part from. Or is that imagination?
 
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