Sapientivore
Registered Senior Member
There's only one emergency number here. . .
Is Joe Paterno Responsible for Penn State Scandal?
- Thread starter Shogun
- Start date
There's only one emergency number here. . .
The program was about more than football:
http://www.thesecondmile.org/welcome.php
Emeritus coach or something like that. As I understand it, emeritus still means they are retired. For example a medical doctor can be in Emertius status (in my state). But he cannot practice medicine under an Emeritius license. Sandusky did not coach football for Penn state under Emeritius status. He did not coach for U of Penn after he retired. He was banned from bringing children on campus and his keys taken away in 2002. (see timeline link below). None of the reports after 2002 involved Penn State campus or football.
We now know it was rape. However, I can see McQueary describing what he saw as fondling or doing something when telling Paterno.wiki article said:
You are assuming Paterno did no follow-up. I personally have no idea if he did or not. If he did, it is likely he was told not to worry about it, or it was nothing, or we reported it to Second Mile (see post gazette link below late March/early april 2002)
wiki again said:
Above from previous wiki link.
It is very possible Paterno never saw Sandusky again.
Here is a timeline of events for even more perspective:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11311/1188149-143.stm
I understand outrage over the incidents being allowed to continue for so many years. But there are legitimate reasons for the law being written with a chain of command on reporting of these kinds of incidents.
Ah...duly noted.
I'd still argue one's moral obligations go a bit futher.
@ milkweed-What do you think those are?
I noted earlier Texas law (where I live) requires anyone who is 18 years old or older has a duty to report suspected abuse or neglect...they don't even need to confirm it, and they report to law enforcement.
Which had we known that when our neighbor's little kid was coming down asking for hamburgers, and we asked him if there was any food in his house, and he said no...
Were it me, if I'm the witness to a crime on the job, I want the police to take the statement from me. I am the freakin' witness. Not my boss.
My own thought on the PA law... is that any time you take anything through a chain of command it exponentially increases the chances that it will not be taken seriously and not acted on.
Maybe it's just the outfits I've worked with, but bureaucracy seems to be an efficient mechanism for not getting things done...the Peter Principle in accumulative entropic force.
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As well he should have been. He didn't take the issue seriously enough. He's lucky if he stays out of jail. It makes no difference if Sandusky was fired or not, Paterno heard about the incident and didn't do the right thing.
That does not include law enforcement, does it?
In his state, Paterno actually followed the requirements of the law. He did the minimum legal requirements. He didn't step up to make sure kids were not getting hurt. Nobody did. It's not like pedophiles usually stop on their own.
Now, since Aussie and Penn State systems are different, let me tell you another agency he could have chosen to inform: Children's Protective Services of Pennsylvania.
But its not Texas, its Pennsylvania. And Paterno DID report it as a person with 3rd party info. Paterno did not see the abuse!
The law was clear; Paterno reported it to his supervisor as required. It became the supervisors legal responsibility (in this case the Athletic director) to report it and according to the timeline info, it was reported it to Second Mile, the employer of Sandusky. This is where the deflection of responsiblity comes in. It was Second Mile which continued to put children at risk (assuming it was really reported to them).
Penn State took the keys from Sandusky. That was not Paterno, that was higher ups. Sweeping the incident under the rug to keep their image sparkling? Sure. Its not good for business to hit the headlines in this way (as penn state is experiencing anyways).
But that doesnt mean Paterno is anything more than a scapegoat. He was fired. The President of the U was allowed to resign.
From the timeline:
March 3, 2002: Mr. Paterno contacts the PSU athletic director, Tim Curley, his immediate supervisor.
Mid-March 2002: Mr. McQueary meets with Mr. Curley and Gary Schultz, senior vice president for finance and business.
Late March or early April 2002: Mr. McQueary hears back from Mr. Curley that Mr. Sandusky's keys to the locker room were taken away and the incident had been reported to The Second Mile. Mr. Curley and Mr. Schultz said PSU president Graham Spanier was told that an incident had occurred in the shower but was not given the full details initially reported by Mr. McQueary.
Why meet with VP of finance and business? Because this is going to look awful and probably cause a disruption in money.
http://espn.go.com/college-football...y-takes-leave-gary-schultz-steps-amid-scandal
So whats happened so far? Penn state has shot the messenger (Paterno). If he would have only kept his mouth shut, eh?
Paterno did not see any abuse. He had nothing more to contribute to the investigation other than McQueary said he saw something. And thats what he reported because thats all he knew.
No my experience is in health, my mums is in education. We are both told repeatedly that we don't get involved directly in these cases (especially us because then we would potentially be at risk from the offender too, remember the same protocols go for all forms of child abuse). You don't tell the child because it has the potential to put them in more danger, you don't tell ANYONE, you write down what you observe, what people tell you and what the child tells you and you call the child abuse hotline and report it to youth and family services. Even the lower rank police follow the same protocols as far as I'm aware. The only ones who can investigate child abuse are a specific specialised branch of SAPOL (for South Australia) in conjunction with Youth and family services officers and in very limited circumstances the family court may deal with some matters of alleged abuse.
As I said previously you call that number and then are expected to act like nothing happened for the good of the child. In hospitals they may well use a centralised system to collect allegations of abuse which are then passed on to Y&FS and it sounds like this university had the same type of procedures. That isn't the "minimum that the law requires", its actually best practice to protect the child from retaliation by the abuser. It sounds like the failure wasn't his even morally, it was his bosses who were supposed to pass it on and the person who originally witnessed it and who should actually have called 911 then and there in order to get police intervention AT THE TIME
Messenger? He was more then the messenger lol, he basically WAS Penn State Nittany Lions.
Maybe its also a message by Penn State more things matter to them then just football.
Unfortunately, we don't have a reporting hotline like that, I really wish we did. I deally we need some sort of clear, universal, 50-state standard.
It might have been better had the witnesses simply called non-university police.
Apropos of nothing...
It's way past my own stat of limitations... but it bothered me to do absolutely nothing to protect other kids.
Soo...
CPS has me on file as being willing to witness for the prosecution if my dad or uncle get caught raping other kids.
So that was my experience of reporting-writing down a thumbnail of my own case history for CPS.:shrug:
Some clear standard needs to be established. Personally, I like Texas's policy-anyone over 18 who has reason to suspect abuse is required to report-to law enforcement.
That takes the ambiguity right out of who has a duty to report-everyone does.
Thats sort of what happens in the NT and its highly problematic for a few reasons
1) sexual activity in anyone under 18 is concidered to be a abuse unless proven otherwise (and there are no "with in 2 years" rules like there are in the other states). Therefore a 16 or 17 year old buying condoms is considered to be a reason to report and so it acts against the safe sex message that health departments and the health industry as well as all other governments have been pushing. Also under 18s who seek the pill are concidered to be being exploited automatically and there is no room for doctors discretion the way there is in the other states (they ALL have to be reported even when the doctor knows the partner is the same age or even younger)
This has a massive potential impact on mental health as well as a risk of increasing rates of teen pregnancy and STD transmission (and no they cant just boarder hop here to get it in one of the states because the distances are massive)
2) mandatory reporters in the other states such as myself as a HCP and volly working with and around kids, my mother as a teacher, lawyers, church people, pollies, and public servants, police and anyone who works around kids are not only mandated by law to report they are TRAINED in what to report and how. If you impose that legal burden on everyone but don't give everyone the training you risk overwhelming the Child protection agencies ability to respond because they will be flooded with reports of incidents which someone with training could dismiss with the confidence that its not an issue (for instance where does smacking become a crime, what constitutes neglect). This may not seem like an issue but it is because if the CPA's are flooded with incorrect complaints then there wont be the resources to investigate the legitimate complaints (same as when idiots call an ambulance for a sore throat it diverts resources away from being able to respond to serious incidents even with Triage, in one case because we were sent to a nuisance call out we weren't able to back up another crew and they were on site with a full cardiac arrest for 40 min before any backup arrived, similar issues occur in child protection)
3) By making everyone a mandatory reporter, you remove certain protections to the alleged people. For instance we don't need any proof to report, only a suspicion and we are protected from defamation laws by the fact that the law requires us to report. If you give that protection to everyone then child abuse allegations became a potential weapon (even more than they are currently in the family court) and "mud sticks", ESPECIALLY when the allegations are of sexual abuse (look at Michael Jackson). This is why in South Australia its illegal to name in the media anyone charged or alleged but not convicted of a sexual offence (this is very specifically mentioned in the evidence act)
I understand where you are coming from and yours is definitely some of the most types of abuse but these laws deal with all forms of abuse and we have to make laws which are in the best interests of everyone. The best way to help cases like yours would be to remove any statute of limitations on child abuse or at least child sexual abuse. Its not a crime which should be time limited
Hmm...
In the United States, even people who have a duty to report may not. There seems to be a cultural tendency here to "mind your own business," and "hope for the best."
People are not going to"flood the police with reports."That's the d@mn problem.
You still are going to see kids coming in with multiple old fractures, that never got reported.
In one story I read, a woman went back to her old house, and talked to a neighbor, who said "We heard you-all in there screaming, we were surprised he didn't kill you."(He being dad)
She replied "Why didn't you call the cops?" Because nobody ever did, even though dad was beating the whole family bloody.
The neighbor-guy I had my run-in with at 4...I mean, the guy was so much of a stereotypical pedophile he might as well have had a neon sign that said PEDO...but one of his neighbors let him babysit her girls... I would like to think there's less denial here now...
But look at this affair.
But anyway...
In Texas, we have a three-year rule, although it STILL applies only to opposite sex couples (grr). Age of consent is 17.
And, quite frankly, statutory rape happens way, way more often than gets prosecuted for-we have a lot of teen pregnancies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#Texas
In the United States, even people who have a duty to report may not. There seems to be a cultural tendency here to "mind your own business," and "hope for the best."
People are not going to"flood the police with reports."That's the d@mn problem.
You still are going to see kids coming in with multiple old fractures, that never got reported.
In one story I read, a woman went back to her old house, and talked to a neighbor, who said "We heard you-all in there screaming, we were surprised he didn't kill you."(He being dad)
She replied "Why didn't you call the cops?" Because nobody ever did, even though dad was beating the whole family bloody.
The neighbor-guy I had my run-in with at 4...I mean, the guy was so much of a stereotypical pedophile he might as well have had a neon sign that said PEDO...but one of his neighbors let him babysit her girls... I would like to think there's less denial here now...
But look at this affair.
But anyway...
In Texas, we have a three-year rule, although it STILL applies only to opposite sex couples (grr). Age of consent is 17.
And, quite frankly, statutory rape happens way, way more often than gets prosecuted for-we have a lot of teen pregnancies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#Texas
That's the other side of the coin, the penalties for NOT reporting are quite stiff. I herd of a case where an ambulance crew in the NT didn't report a suspected case of abuse, there reasoning? It was the end of the shift and they couldn't be bothered. Needless to say they were fired (and will never work in ANY job in health care again) and charged and the penalties are quite stiff. If you put this on a select few who are then trained to do the job then you can impose penalties on them for there failures but if you put it on everyone? Well then do you charge the store clerk, with no medical training who happens to see a baby which turns out to be malnourished?
As for the teen pregnancies my belief is that is a failure of sexual education and a failure to provide good, confidential and free sexual health. If you teach abstanance as the only contraceptive then you are being unrealistic and are responsible for causing teen pregnancy and the spread of STDs, teens need good quality information and the ability to act on that information, they need access to choices of contraception and the knowledge of what works when and for what so they can make these decisions in an informed way. Then they need access to these services cheaply, confidentially and professionally (not judgementally)
Chimpkin, your posts are reminding me of this:
Neighbors Confront Alcoholic Child-Abuser About His Lawn
http://www.theonion.com/articles/neighbors-confront-alcoholic-childabuser-about-his,744/
Neighbors Confront Alcoholic Child-Abuser About His Lawn
http://www.theonion.com/articles/neighbors-confront-alcoholic-childabuser-about-his,744/
You choose to respond to the analogy part of my post?
Paterno witnessed no abuse but reported the heresay to his supervisor as required by the law. Paterno is fired.
The president of the U is allowed to resign. The President of the U with his educational background in Sociology and Marriage and Family Therapy is allowed to resign, not fired from his job.
The Athletic director is allowed to take a leave of absence while he resolves his legal issues. Not fired.
The other guy Schultz was allowed to return to retirement. In the grand jury papers, we find out Schultz was not only director of Business and Finance, he was overseer of the University police as a part of his job! Not fired.
McQuery is now suspended from his job (some reports say with pay) supposedly because of threats made against him.
Please explain to me what you think the message being sent is.
I am seeing the one with the least amount of authority being thrown under the bus while the fat cats remain protected. Allowed to resign. Leave of absence.
The grand jury indicted the senior staff for their failures to follow the law, not Paterno, not McQuearny. See page 12.
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedFiles/Press/Sandusky-Grand-Jury-Presentment.pdf
Another interesting point within the above link is the Attorney for the U during the 1998 incident is now the Attorney for the Second Mile. The attorney for Sandusky knocked up a 16 year old (emancipated minor) when he was 49.
I am under the impression, no one knows who victim 2 is even to this day. If victim 2 is found, there is a significant chance he will deny sex abuse occurred. Then what? You wont believe him (victim 2)? Or will you lean towards the Horseplay explaination (I am not saying naked horseplay with children is appropriate). Will you be able to accept victim 2 saying no rape occurred? Then what about Paterno? Fired for reporting horseplay.
McQuearny is a puzzling piece. His story is now changed again but I cannot get past his appearences with Sandusky AFTER the alleged incident for fundraising. Sandusky's attorney is going to use that. He (mcQuearny) is going to be sobbing like a baby on the stand (if Sandusky doesnt kill himself before trial).
And as I learned from a pot smoking friend. Cops (the tv show) was a good way to teach their kid why it was soo bad to call the police over stuff that mom and dad did. "Dont you be telling no one about what we smoke or the cops are gonna take mom and dad away and you wont have this, that, the other thing. Your dog will be gone cuz the cops take them away too."
This pervert used the kids love of sports to gain access. And look, the cops are going to try to take football away. They already fired the best coach ever....
Paterno is not responsible for Penn State's situation. Neither is McQuearny. The responsibility is higher up the ladder.
Yes I chose that, so?
Paterno got canned because he was a football legend, I think he has moral responsibility for not reporting it, but he didn't deserve to be fired.
They canned the legend because they are trying to tell the world its more then just football, and its not Paterno State, its Penn State. Do you know what's the first things people think of when they think of Penn State? Its Paterno and the Nittany Lions.
Its a PR move, nothing more.
It might backfire on them, because Paterno WAS Penn State and the Nittany Lions IS Penn State, at least in the public's eye.
It doesn't matter that he is fired, doesn't mean he would be out of a job, I think a lot of people would be more than happy to have him coach for them especially if it is not a visible position.