Is it wrong to have sex for fun, knowing it might possibly lead to an abortion?

[Write4U]

Very interesting lecture, unless I missed something, he did not provide any empirical proof that life actually did come from non-life, only that it may have.

If you are willing to admit that living organisms consist of bio-chemical polymers which, in humans require a nine month gestation (growth) period and then through "quorum sensing" form and produce a human being, we are a long way from God created a fully formed human (Adam) from some dust.

That Life is a symbiotic biological process is indisputably established IMO. We don't use terms like gut-flora for nothing. Humans need little forests inside us.
Apparently about 1 kg. of physical stuff in humans is "bacterial material" (great song-title....) .

And I kind of think his approach could also be used to try and show that a Stealth Fighter could create itself, because at the scale of the Earth the probability of the necessary chemical reactions needed, would have likely already occurred for that to happen as well.

LOL, compared to the bio-chemical complexity of say, a human being, a stealth bomber is a mere toy. A human is a pattern of trillions of individual cells 10% human 90% bacterial, communicating through an electro-chemical neural network, controlled by a central sentient processor.

And you cite a stealth bomber. Bassler showed that an octopus has evolved bio-chemical stealth abilities, which makes it invisible to predators.

So I guess we have to place that and the self creation of many other complex and designed systems (cars, computers, HD Televisions, etc) on the table as well. Why would we even need Designers and Engineers? All of these would be inevitable, through a combination of chance and Deterministic mechanisms. The human body is orders of magnitude beyond any of those in complexity. So all of those should be more likely, since they are relatively simple in design.

Consider this; if sets of bio-chemical cells can create a human organism, why should the concept of sets of humans creating stealth bombers be different. Humans use stealth bombers. Nature does not. However, the concept of "cloaking ability" which is a pretty sophisticated technology has existed in nature for billions of years. Stealth bombers are a product of humans who are a product of nature. Nature created the creators of stealth bombers. That's why we call them "artifacts".

But what you missed is the metaphisical universal imperative of "necessity and sufficiency". This is an important universal law, IMO.
What that means is, example: a whole bunch of hydrogen and oxygen atoms come in close proximity to each other in a confined space. This condition makes it necessary to make water, because there are sufficient compatible components present. Probability does the rest.

Necessity and Sufficiency,
In logic, necessity and sufficiency are terms used to describe a conditional or implicational relationship between statements.

For example, in the conditional statement "If P then Q", we say that "Q is necessary for P" because P cannot be true unless Q is true. Similarly, we say that "P is sufficient for Q" because P being true always implies that Q is true, but P not being true does not always imply that Q is not true.

The assertion that a statement is a "necessary and sufficient" condition of another means that the former statement is true if and only if the latter is true. That is, the two statements must be either simultaneously true or simultaneously false.

In ordinary English, "necessary" and "sufficient" indicate relations between conditions or states of affairs, not statements. Being a male sibling is a necessary and sufficient condition for being a brother

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_and_sufficiency

How does a bacterium create "light"? Moreover, how does a beaker of bacteria decide to "turn on the light" all at the same time?

Am I being crazy or unfair to this clearly brilliant man?

You are seeing it, but not recognizing it , yet. "Necessity and Sufficiency"

What did I miss, I could watch it again if you think that would help me understand it better.
It does not appear to me that we are even close to explaining the complexity of life.
What else do you have?

Don't worry, I am discovering myself and very happy to say that my relatively uninformed intuition is not that far off the mark from the more advanced hypotheses.

However I can certainly understand your initial scepticism, from your perspective. I just think you are assigning too much importance on this natural phenomenon we call Life. On earth, its everywhere, it's no big deal really as compared to the total potential contained in the entire universe. It is capable of producing an infinite variety and complexity of patterns. Humans are a bio-chemical pattern, neat huh.....

IMO, you are making it unneccessarily complicated. It is not difficult to create enormous complexity from a simple mathematical constant. Try a few simple fractal iteration and see what beauty magically appears from a very basic mathematical function.

Renate Loll, has a very interesting hypothesis on the fractality of space-time. Check out CDT.

Causal dynamical triangulation (abbreviated as CDT) theorized by Renate Loll, Jan Ambjørn and Jerzy Jurkiewicz, and popularized by Fotini Markopoulou and Lee Smolin, is an approach to quantum gravity that like loop quantum gravity is background independent.
This means that it does not assume any pre-existing arena (dimensional space), but rather attempts to show how the spacetime fabric itself evolves.

Wow!
=========================
Biology seems to start very, very small, from simple dynamic bio-chemical processes, which already display "motility" at extremely basic levels.

What is a single celled throbbing blob that can solve mazes, tell time, has an intra-cellular communication system and has made it's home everywhere on earth, a very successful species;
It's the slime-mold, "it lives"!!!!!.......

p.s. someone asked for an example of resurrection. Easy, deprive a water-bear from water and it dies (goes dormant). 2 years later add a drop of water and the water-bear revives and goes merrily on its way.

Most tardigrades are phytophagous (plant eaters) or bacteriophagous (bacteria eaters), but some are carnivorous to the extent of eating other smaller species of tardigrades (e.g., Milnesium tardigradum).

Tardigrades share morphological characteristics with many species that differ largely by class. Biologists have a difficult time finding verification among tardigrade species because of this relationship. These animals are most closely related to the early evolution of arthropods.

Tardigrade fossils go as far back as the Cretaceous period in North America. This specific species is considered cosmopolitan and can be located in regions all over the world. The eggs and cysts of tardigrades are so resistant to other dangers that they are carried great distances, on the feet of other animals, to a different location.

The lifespan of tardigrades range from 3–4 months for some species, up to 2 years for other species, not counting the time they spend in dormant states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade

Of course, some bacteria also can lay dormant for many years or even decades and when the enviroment changes in some way , become active and do their thing. Resurrection is a natural survival strategy. Put it in context and perspective.

 

[iceaura]

No! I dispise, detest ISIS, just as you do!

But you do recognize that you and they have a common cause regarding God/Dios/Yahweh/Allah, and women, right?

Only God can judge women who have abortions.

So you are not going to bring the police and the courts, not going to pass laws and enforce them, not going to vote for politicians who usurp God's prerogatives in this matter.
That's good.

 

[Musika]

Funny how an anti-science guy like you is the one who is disagreeing with me then.

On the contrary, I am not anti-science.
You, on the other hand, are not only avowedly anti-religion, but, in a manner approaching the pathological, see religion and science as diametrically opposed ..... which certainly explains your off~kilter choice for contribution material and assertions of duality that have no basis outside of your political tastes.

As food for thought, what would you make of a group of "scientists" who were investigating the pursuit of science as but a mere psychological foray? Suppose they were mimicking the brain's capacity to experience the sensation of having successfully connected different fields of knowledge in a way that is, as yet, unknown to others .... of course such recipients of this therapy are not actually advancing any new discoveries, they are just subject to processes that synthesize the psychological state attributed with scientific advancement ..... and furthermore, suppose a poster brought this to the forum's attention as a basis to suggest that scientific advancement has no real significance beyond the psychological? Would it strike you as the activities of someone who is hell-bent on subverting the scientific principle to their pathological intentions?

 

[SetiAlpha6]

But you do recognize that you and they have a common cause regarding God/Dios/Yahweh/Allah, and women, right?

So you are not going to bring the police and the courts, not going to pass laws and enforce them, not going to vote for politicians who usurp God's prerogatives in this matter.
That's good.

Society is not protecting women right now.

A woman should never feel like she has to choose between having her baby and success in life.

Abortions injure women, sometimes making it impossible for them to have children later even if they want to.

It also can lead to depression and thoughts of suicide.

Why would you ever want to do that to women?

 

[Musika]

Steam engines are also on the path trodden by atheists. Y'know why? Because they're real and useful.

Sure. Steam engines are real. Which inevitably means the broadness of their application makes them an unacceptable tool for advancing the atheist agenda ..... hence atheists tend to look for things further abroad.

 

[Musika]

I only claim what is actually known and what that suggests after real tests and observed results, by impartial observers.
Start the lecture @ 25:10.

You claim all that is not known and draw a hard conclusion from your utter speculation of a purely subjective hope.

So which is the more conservative POV?
An increasing library of known facts or a 2000 year old book of pure speculation and unwarranted conclusions?

If you want to assert something that is essentially philosophical yet remain adverse to philosophy as a discipline, you frustrate your own interests.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

If you are willing to admit that living organisms consist of bio-chemical polymers which, in humans require a nine month gestation (growth) period and then through "quorum sensing" form and produce a human being, we are a long way from God created a fully formed human (Adam) from some dust.

That Life is a symbiotic biological process is indisputably established IMO. We don't use terms like gut-flora for nothing. Humans need little forests inside us.
Apparently about 1 kg. of physical stuff in humans is "bacterial material" (great song-title....) .
LOL, compared to the bio-chemical complexity of say, a human being, a stealth bomber is a mere toy. A human is a pattern of trillions of individual cells 10% human 90% bacterial, communicating through an electro-chemical neural network, controlled by a central sentient processor.

And you cite a stealth bomber. Bassler showed that an octopus has evolved bio-chemical stealth abilities, which makes it invisible to predators.

Consider this; if sets of bio-chemical cells can create a human organism, why should the concept of sets of humans creating stealth bombers be different. Humans use stealth bombers. Nature does not. However, the concept of "cloaking ability" which is a pretty sophisticated technology has existed in nature for billions of years. Stealth bombers are a product of humans who are a product of nature. Nature created the creators of stealth bombers. That's why we call them "artifacts".

But what you missed is the metaphisical universal imperative of "necessity and sufficiency". This is an important universal law, IMO.
What that means is, example: a whole bunch of hydrogen and oxygen atoms come in close proximity to each other in a confined space. This condition makes it necessary to make water, because there are sufficient compatible components present. Probability does the rest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_and_sufficiency

How does a bacterium create "light"? Moreover, how does a beaker of bacteria decide to "turn on the light" all at the same time?
You are seeing it, but not recognizing it , yet. "Necessity and Sufficiency"
Don't worry, I am discovering myself and very happy to say that my relatively uninformed intuition is not that far off the mark from the more advanced hypotheses.

However I can certainly understand your initial scepticism, from your perspective. I just think you are assigning too much importance on this natural phenomenon we call Life. On earth, its everywhere, it's no big deal really as compared to the total potential contained in the entire universe. It is capable of producing an infinite variety and complexity of patterns. Humans are a bio-chemical pattern, neat huh.....

IMO, you are making it unneccessarily complicated. It is not difficult to create enormous complexity from a simple mathematical constant. Try a few simple fractal iteration and see what beauty magically appears from a very basic mathematical function.

Renate Loll, has a very interesting hypothesis on the fractality of space-time. Check out CDT. Wow!
=========================
Biology seems to start very, very small, from simple dynamic bio-chemical processes, which already display "motility" at extremely basic levels.

What is a single celled throbbing blob that can solve mazes, tell time, has an intra-cellular communication system and has made it's home everywhere on earth, a very successful species;
It's the slime-mold, "it lives"!!!!!.......

p.s. someone asked for an example of resurrection. Easy, deprive a water-bear from water and it dies (goes dormant). 2 years later add a drop of water and the water-bear revives and goes merrily on its way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade

Of course, some bacteria also can lay dormant for many years or even decades and when the enviroment changes in some way , become active and do their thing. Resurrection is a natural survival strategy. Put it in context and perspective.

So, is entropy functioning in this universe, you know, the second law of thermodynamics, over the first days, weeks, months, years, even billions of years it would take thousands of individual processes to create a fully functional set of male and female human bodies?

In other words, what kind of process, can defeat entropy for billions of years? Actually going in the opposite direction, instead of progressing from order to disorder, going from disorder to order, and higher and higher order over billions of years?

How can you logically invert entropy over such great timespans?

 

[billvon]

In other words, what kind of process, can defeat entropy for billions of years? Actually going in the opposite direction, instead of progressing from order to disorder, going from disorder to order, and higher and higher order over billions of years?

Gravity would be a simple example.

 

[billvon]

Society is not protecting women right now.
A woman should never feel like she has to choose between having her baby and success in life.

Agreed. She should be free to make both choices.

Abortions injure women, sometimes making it impossible for them to have children later even if they want to.

So do sports, driving, drinking and regular pregnancy. Who decides if the risk of any of them is worth it? The woman - not you.

Why would you ever want to do that to women?

Would you ever force a woman to bring a pregnancy to term, knowing it might kill her?

 

[billvon]

I think of it like this, the fact that intelligence can make something extremely complex, designed and highly organized like a Stealth Fighter does not mean our even imply that a Stealth Fightet can be created by chance mechanisms, no matter how large the universe is, or how much time has gone by, or how many dimensions of other Universes their are.

Human beings can make well organized, complex, attractive designs like this:

Nature can do the same thing:

The probability of this happening could certainly be calculated. And it would be extremely remote, similar to the probability of life creating itself.

Exactly. It would never happen in any time scale you are familiar with. But over 4 billion years, the odds of it happening are significantly greater than zero.

But that is not something I would ever bank my life on.

Fortunately you do not have to.

Or teach to others, even children, in school as fact.

Evolution is taught as fact. Any particular version of abiogenesis is not.

Fairytales do not belong in school, accept perhaps in English classes, taught as fiction or as science fiction.

Glad you agree we should keep the Bible out of school science programs.

 

[Musika]

Human beings can make well organized, complex, attractive designs like this:

Nature can do the same thing:

Nature does it better, which is just another hint that it is driven by an intelligence.

Exactly. It would never happen in any time scale you are familiar with. But over 4 billion years, the odds of it happening are significantly greater than zero.

Even if we are to accept your ideas, it happens in a timescale you are not familiar with. You are talking about events where you cannot factually establish or even name the timescale, nor the variables, nor the relationships of cause and effect between these things.

 

[iceaura]

Society is not protecting women right now.

That's no excuse for passing laws against them protecting themselves.
But you are not in favor of that, you said:

So you are not going to bring the police and the courts, not going to pass laws and enforce them, not going to vote for politicians who usurp God's prerogatives in this matter.
That's good.

- -

You are talking about events where you cannot factually establish or even name the timescale, nor the variables, nor the relationships of cause and effect between these things

The timescale and many of the variables have been established, factually, to a very useful degree of approximation - and better seems to be coming soon.

In other words, what kind of process, can defeat entropy for billions of years?

Darwinian evolution can of course use it to create arbitrary complexity.

Nature does it better, which is just another hint that it is driven by an intelligence.

That is not a hint, but rather a demonstration, that intelligence is not necessary.

 

[Write4U]

So, is entropy functioning in this universe, you know, the second law of thermodynamics, over the first days, weeks, months, years, even billions of years it would take thousands of individual processes to create a fully functional set of male and female human bodies?

And so it did. The development of the 23 gene "modern man" took perhaps as much 200,000 years alone.

In other words, what kind of process can defeat entropy for billions of years? Actually going in the opposite direction, instead of progressing from order to disorder, going from disorder to order, and higher and higher order over billions of years? How can you logically invert entropy over such great timespans?

You don't. People don't live for billions of years. Nothing lives for billions of years.

But billions of years of relatively short lifespans allows the formation of more "complex" durable patterns, not "disorderly" patterns........difference. Evolution is "adaptive pattern mutation", "natural selection'' selects out the lesser adapted patterns and leaves the best "adapted". This is why the insect has survived all the "extinction ages", they adapt easily and a have a very short life-span with millions of off-spring from a single matingwhich insures a thriving organic continuity.

This is exactly what Bassler referred to when she cited the dangers inherent in using our anti-bacterial cleaning agents which kill everything except the most resistant organisms and artificial entropy here produces efficiency (immunity) instead of disorder in the surviving organisms.

 

[Write4U]

Nature does it better, which is just another hint that it is driven by an intelligence.

No, nature does not necessarily do it better. Nature just does it, precisely because it is not driven by a motivated intelligence, but by mathematical imperatives. And nature makes plenty of mutative mistakes, which are weeded out from the available pool.

Even if we are to accept your ideas, it happens in a timescale you are not familiar with. You are talking about events where you cannot factually establish or even name the timescale, nor the variables, nor the relationships of cause and effect between these things.

Yes we can, via statistical data from collected specimen. You are still living at 2000 years ago.

Today we can do carbon dating, identify specific mineral deposits associated with natural phenomena. We have a wealth of factual information, which you seem to dismiss as trivial.
It isn't.

But due to the great time spans, some "missing links" are hard to find. They are bio-degradable, unless fossilized.

 

[Write4U]

Nature does it better, which is just another hint that it is driven by an intelligence

It's another hint that the universe is driven by pseudo-intelligent mathematical functions, such as "quorum sensing".
That's why we have been able to discover, analize, symbolize, and apply these attributes of universal values and functions for our own uses.

 

[Write4U]

It reads; "Natura Artis Magistra", not; "Deus Artis Magistra'"...........

Artis, short for Natura Artis Magistra (Latin for "Nature is the teacher of the arts"), is a zoo in the centre of Amsterdam. It is the oldest zoo in the Netherlands and one of the oldest zoos of mainland Europe. Next to possessing a zoo, Artis also contains an aquarium and a planetarium.

My favorite daily stomping ground when I was five......
(we lived a block away)

 

[Musika]

It's another hint that the universe is driven by pseudo-intelligent mathematical functions, such as "quorum sensing".
That's why we have been able to discover, analize, symbolize, and apply these attributes of universal values and functions for our own uses.

If nature is guided by an intelligence, would it be rational to expect otherwise?

 

[Write4U]

If nature is guided by an intelligence, would it be rational to expect otherwise?

Nature is not guided by intelligence, it is guided by mathematics. Mathematics can act as pseudo-intelligence.

 

[Musika]

Nature is not guided by intelligence, it is guided by mathematics. Mathematics can act as pseudo-intelligence.

Gibberish evasion of the question.

 

[Write4U]

Gibberish evasion of the question.

Apparently you do not quite appreciate the importance of mathematical constants in the evolution of the universe.

Interestingly the term"gibberish" is more related to religious "woo", not to the very precise and clear language of mathematics.