cole grey said:
Heh, no it isn't. Edit: Granted it isn't Hypothesis, either. And though I don't dispute it's "contingent-truth" it remains, at best, an assumption.
Nice talking to you.
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is it possible to find God by reason?
- Thread starter longlostlady
- Start date
Heh, no it isn't. Edit: Granted it isn't Hypothesis, either. And though I don't dispute it's "contingent-truth" it remains, at best, an assumption.
Nice talking to you.
cole grey said:
How is one supposed to come to believe in God, if God is unknowable? How is one to know God, if God is unknowable?
For to believe in God, one would have to know so, and know God.
Or, is it that we may know our belief in God, but not know God?
Yet, if so, what is this, but a construct?
I'm sorry, but this is a poor argument. You can't call something wrong and substantiate your assertion with a "perhaps".
The Lord is a creator (incidentally humans and most animals have two creators, which is partly a basis for believing in polytheism), but should we be without a God, then we must be searching for a destroyer. One could assume that to destroy nothing is to create something, however given that there was never nothing (because God alone existed (not nothing!)) then we must accept that there has always been something. So, the destruction of nothing has not occurred, because as we know there has never been nothing. We should question either the destruction of something (God) or the creation of nothing, both of which resulted in heat, light, and (possibly) time.
water said:
I'm not sure where hope comes into this, exactly. Personally I'd never "set all my hope" an any unknowable thing, so I agree with you on that point. But I'd put a little hope in it...
For example, I have a faint hope that there is an afterlife and a God. I suspect that neither are real. I have no positive belief in either. I have no faith in either. But I have a faint hope, and it is not an impractical thing to do, because I cannot ever be disappointed - if I'm wrong, I'll just be dead and I won't know my hope was in vain.
I also don't think that my hoping or not hoping will change the reality of my having an afterlife or not. Additionally it has no negative impact on my life today, in fact it has a small positive impact, and that is why I do it.
So, there is such a thing as "a little hope."
"Hope is the quintessential human emotion."
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Getting back to truth/knowability.... I'll try to reformulate something I said earlier:
Supposing we found extremely strong theoretical reasons to suppose that we are in one closed universe among a plethora of other universes in a multiverse, we would at least have to acknowledge that there could in principle be truths about things in other universes that we simply cannot know, due to *practical* constraints. There is nothing illogical about this scenario, and it may not turn out to be "fantasy" as some here would claim. You could argue about whether or not the mutliverse is just a hypothesis - I think it would depend on the explanatory strength and consistency of the theory that it is a necessary part of. And while the multiverse might not be classified in the same set of empirically known things such as the existence of the moon, it certainly would not warrant to be tossed in the "fantasy" heap.
Like everything else, there are shades of grey between black and white.
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Water; is that you?
Are we becoming a strong agnostic, or atheist?.
Anyhow it's nice to see ya questioning deep thoughts which have driven many to atheism, agnosticism, humanism, free thinkers and the such.
I've moved to another state, no god here! Fact is I live in Sin City
We can't change reality, reality is an axiom, it is as is. We can only identify objects, entities of reality, we can't change them, we only become aware of their existence.
That's why I can claim, that if it exists, we will discover it, though not all assumptions can be known to be fact, however if it exist, we will find ways to discover it.
No problem here, subjective things are from the mind the mind can be tricked, the mind is fallible, emotions are controled by desires. Gods were thought out of fear, fear of the unknown, fear of death, fear of thunder, hopes for rain, for wealth, etc.. Gods are nothing more than desires fueled by emotional behavior of others, one is tought as a child about gods, and demons, these become part of our psychi, these in fact become our fears, and hopes, as well. Unless one rejects subjectiveness and embraces objectivity, trying to be objective despite the subjective mind is not easy, but can be done, If there's no emperical proof of an existence, then more then likely it does not exist, no hopes, emotions, fears, will change the fact that green headed monsters don't exist in my closet, or gods, demons and goblins. Thus those things are subjective.
Godless
Are we becoming a strong agnostic, or atheist?.
Anyhow it's nice to see ya questioning deep thoughts which have driven many to atheism, agnosticism, humanism, free thinkers and the such.
I've moved to another state, no god here! Fact is I live in Sin City
We can't change reality, reality is an axiom, it is as is. We can only identify objects, entities of reality, we can't change them, we only become aware of their existence.
That's why I can claim, that if it exists, we will discover it, though not all assumptions can be known to be fact, however if it exist, we will find ways to discover it.
No problem here, subjective things are from the mind the mind can be tricked, the mind is fallible, emotions are controled by desires. Gods were thought out of fear, fear of the unknown, fear of death, fear of thunder, hopes for rain, for wealth, etc.. Gods are nothing more than desires fueled by emotional behavior of others, one is tought as a child about gods, and demons, these become part of our psychi, these in fact become our fears, and hopes, as well. Unless one rejects subjectiveness and embraces objectivity, trying to be objective despite the subjective mind is not easy, but can be done, If there's no emperical proof of an existence, then more then likely it does not exist, no hopes, emotions, fears, will change the fact that green headed monsters don't exist in my closet, or gods, demons and goblins. Thus those things are subjective.
Godless
Godless said:
I agree completely. What I have taken issue with in this thread is the attitude that "If there is no empirical proof, then it cannot exist in principle." There is a huge difference between that and what you just said.
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water said:
It is agnosticism - it's just hopeful agnosticism. I go just a tiny step further than a typical agnostic by owning up to the fact that I have a hope. And I will admit that I'd rather there be a god, in the end, such that this whole matter of existing as a human being in this universe turns out to have a really nice motivation and explanation. I doubt that is the case, but I am not certain that it is not.
As for your second question, I insist on agnosticism because to me it is the most reasonable, intellectually honest position I have found to date. I simply don't claim to know things I don't know. There are theists in this world that claim to know about God, and there are some atheists that think they have demonstrated nothing god-like can exist, but I simply, honestly cannot see that either side is correct. If I find reason to change that, I will. A true agnostic does not sit on the fence when a compelling reason is offered to jump off to one side.
water said:
Great question!
For starters, I generally don't pray, so it is hard for me to answer that.
What I do see is that prayer can be a kind of self-talk or meditation. In other words, "I'm going to address this dialogue to my inner self, but God, if you are there, please listen in and help."
I know, from a traditional theistic POV I'm totally out to lunch on this. But I'm not a theist, after all.
Moreover, many people who have a more pantheistic or deistic view of God can believe quite earnestly in God, yet not engage in prayer. Or at least not petitionary prayer.
I'm thinking of the kind of Christianity that is espoused by Rev. John Shelby Spong, for example. Are you familiar with him?
Lerxst said:
I hope things will work out well for you.
I used to be a hopeful agnostic, but it almost got me insane. I could not take my hope seriously. But to think of God as an extra, an affair on the side and not something central to my life, this wasn't viable either.
Lerxst said:
But what actual use is there then to your hope that God exists?
For the sake of certain problems regarding logic and morality, it may seem useful to posit the existence of God. But then God is merely a construct, something to put there where one's logic and moral reasoning get stuck. And there isn't much real comfort in such a hope.
No.
water said:
Thanks, water.
Its all about self-discovery, in some ways, isn't it? I have taken a very long and winding route on the path of spirituality myself, being raised Christian, turning to atheism, and now as I am getting older to have found a sort of middle ground. I don't know where it will lead, but I am searching, and I am enjoying the process of discovery.
May I ask what specific type of theism you embrace? (PM if you want, if it is not relevant enough to the thread topic...)
Unless there truly is a hell!
Of course you can: you choose to move your arm, and reality has changed. If you choose to move your leg, reality has once again changed. You seem grounded within determinism.
Science (or the senses) are not perfect. There are many things that cannot be sensed, but that do exist: gravity and time are two common examples.
water said:
The use is that this hope helps to assuage a deep-seated despair about the apparent finality of death.
The use is that it makes me a happier person.
The use is that it increases my sense of wonder, it opens up my sense of possibilites.
The use is that I no longer feel like a fish out of water in a world immersed in God. I don't have to fight it anymore, like I used to. Every mention of God to me, in the past, was an affront and an insult. Someone said "God bless you" to me and I told them "God isn't real." I was an asshole about it. Now when someone says God bless you, I say it right back to them, because it feels good to say it. And I like to reflect well-wishes right back at people. There is too much nastiness in this world, I want to reduce it.
Lerxst said:
It certainly is about self-discovery.
Presently, I don't embrace any type of theism. Neither do I qualify as an agnostic, nor atheist.
Over time, the question of God has become too abstract to me. I'm still interested in it, hence my questions. I have a strange sense of alienation and closeness to God, simultaneously.
Lerxst said:
I could have said that what you're saying is nothing but carrot-and-stick mentality, and discard it as such. But I think there comes a point when analysis doesn't measure up to one's experience anymore, and words don't do it justice.
Experience is challenging, and it grossly undermines the whole concept of finding God by reason.