is it possible to find God by reason?

eineidloff said:
Thank you.

First off, I'm not interested in backing up the existence of an atemporal creation force with hard evidence because

a) I do not believe in one and
b) there isn't any hard evidence for such a force

And whether or not you put any value in metaphysics, it is undoubtedly an argument for such a force, wouldn't you agree? Dictionary.com would agree, as one of their definitions of the term argument is A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood. Aristotle follows just such a course of reasoning and thus, even though you don't agree with him, presents an argument, which means, beyond a sliver of doubt, that there is an argument for such a force. Had I been trying to prove the existence of this principle, you might demand more of me. As I'm not, you may not. Do we see eye to eye yet :p ?
lets say ok.
eineidloff said:
And what is your reason for refering to c20H25N3o by your pet term "blithering idiot"? He seemed a pleasant and intelligent individual in that thread, do you know something about him I don't?
you'll need to reads some more of his threads, he believes he was an atheist, he may of been agnostic, or a deist he could not be sure anyway, most of his life was drug induced.
eineidloff said:
Do you perhaps refer to all converts as blithering idiots?
only ones who constantly talk rubbish, as I say have a read of woody c20 and witnessjj geneps threads and posts
eineidloff said:
Do you truly believe no atheist has ever converted to Christianity?
to truly be an atheist and convert to a religion is an impossiblity, you are asking a person who uses sense reason and intellect, to give that up for irrationality, a blow on the head then maybe.
 
thats very nice...

but freedom works both ways....

you cannt stop people from having different views...

yet you are allowed to get mad about it. and yell and scream and sue...

but not to kill... not to call for murder... not for burning.

its called being calm and civilised...

in america... americans have rioted many times.. and burned lots of things...

but it for social injustice.. judicial prejudice.. or just economic frustration...

i.e.. we attack our own gov't...

the gov'ts of the muslim world have simply given the poverty striken people someone to hate other than them....

Do the people rise up agaisnt coruption.???? agaisnt a lack of freedom in their own country??? no... no...

why?? they would get killed...



because they have you all organised in hating other nations...

its as old as the first civlization... people are going to hate.. its simply a question of what...

if it was not Jihad agaisnt the west... then it would be agaisnt your own gov'ts in the middle east...

as it should be.

its all a big game... i recommemd you stop playing it.


i know how to islamify the world... come join with me... PRAISE ALLAH.

http://theempiricalchurch.blogspot.com/

-MT
 
longlostlady said:
um hello, i'm new so sorry if anything like this has been asked recently - have had a look through and can't find anything though so....

i'm currently doing some coursework on Aquinas and his Five Ways and am interested in other people's views on whether it is actually possible to find God by reason. I mean, there have been times in life when i have really wanted to believe in a personal God who was looking out for me, or at least that the struggling was worthwhile, but I can't make myself believe in God. And no matter how much i look at all the logical arguments to say that that God exists, there's still something that won't let me believe, even though I am perfectly willing to accept that there is a strong probability of a God, even if it is beyond our comprehension, whereas friends who have been raised with the belief in God have this belief even while acknowledging that there are many valid arguments against the existence of such a being.

So I guess what I'm really asking is can reasoning provide faith?

And as an aside, I'm also studying Luther, and while I'm aware that in the 16th century belief in God was almost universal (obviously within the geographical area we're talking about), would Lutheran principles of justification by faith mean that I was damned, no matter how i lived my life?

Hello,
to me, reason can provide evidence for faith in God, and it can provide evidence for not having faith in God. It can also provide faith in atheism or faith in not following atheism, and it can provide evidence for anything you want to try and reason out.

I am a Christian. Belief in God for me is a personal decision; I believe that there is enough evidence that makes my faith in His existence a rational and sound choice. My experiences are not yours, so I can't tell you that you should feel what I feel and just believe, no matter your doubts. I can say that if you believe that there is a strong probablity that God exists, then you need to honestly confront yourself about what that "something" is that makes you not make your decision to step out in faith on that evidence.

Faith doesn't mean that we prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that something will happen. If we prove something, then we don't have faith in it anymore because we KNOW that it is right; faith means that we believe it is right even though we can't prove it yet. We can provide mounds of evidence on one side or the other but evidence is not proof. All we can do is weigh the evidence and see for ourselve what we want to put our faith in.

My understanding of Luther's Justification by Faith is that how we live our lives does not affect our "worthiness" to be saved. We cannot be saved by good deeds that we do because we are all under the curse of death. The only way of salvation is to accept the free gift of salvation from Jesus (I do not intend to preach; I am just answering the question asked). I look at it from the viewpoint that anyone can do "good" deeds; Hamas has terrorism tactics in one hand and charities/community service centers on the other hand. It's not what we do that condemns us; it is what is in our hearts and what is in our hearts is inherently evil. For example, you don't have to teach a child to lie; but you do have to teach them to tell the truth.

I think that i'm branching off topic however. Those are my thoughts on your question; i hope that they can help you in some way.
 
geeser said:
to truly be an atheist and convert to a religion is an impossiblity, you are asking a person who uses sense reason and intellect, to give that up for irrationality, a blow on the head then maybe.

C.S. Lewis used to be an atheist before he became a Christian.

Of course, there have been Christians who have become atheists as well. It just goes to show that reason and intellect only go so far; it's what each of us does with our reason and intellect that matters.
 
HEA... SOMEBODY ERASED THE POST FROM SOME MUSLIM GUY...

i responded to him.. now his post is gone....

thats bull...

i didnt agree with him...

but he should be allowed to speak his mind.

-MT
 
smallaxe0217 said:
Hello,
to me, reason can provide evidence for faith in God,
firstly welcome to sciforums.

nobody has said that your subjective mind cannot reason a god, but it cannnot do it in reality.
smallaxe0217 said:
and it can provide evidence for not having faith in God. It can also provide faith in atheism
you cant have faith in atheism, faith is a religious thing.
atheism is a totally lack of faith, in all baseless things.
smallaxe0217 said:
or faith in not following atheism, and it can provide evidence for anything you want to try and reason out.
sorry not so. you cant reason that a square is the same shapes as a circle, but your subjective mind maybe able to.
smallaxe0217 said:
I am a Christian. Belief in God for me is a personal decision; I believe that there is enough evidence that makes my faith in His existence a rational and sound choice.
then please produce this evidence so we can all follow a god.
smallaxe0217 said:
My experiences are not yours, so I can't tell you that you should feel what I feel and just believe, no matter your doubts. I can say that if you believe that there is a strong probablity that God exists, then you need to honestly confront yourself about what that "something" is that makes you not make your decision to step out in faith on that evidence.
and faith just says it all, does'nt it.
smallaxe0217 said:
Faith doesn't mean that we prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that something will happen. If we prove something, then we don't have faith in it anymore because we KNOW that it is right; faith means that we believe it is right even though we can't prove it yet. We can provide mounds of evidence on one side or the other but evidence is not proof.
it works for me.
smallaxe0217 said:
All we can do is weigh the evidence and see for ourselve what we want to put our faith in.
contradiction, and what evidence.
smallaxe0217 said:
C.S. Lewis used to be an atheist before he became a Christian.
not possible, I've found nothing, to say the he was an atheist, just the fact that he did'nt really follow his religion, this does not indicate he had no belief in a god.
but cristian like to use this, as a proof? that atheist can change, but you are asking the impossible.
smallaxe0217 said:
Of course, there have been Christians who have become atheists as well.
that goes without saying where do you think atheist come from, from strict study of the bible qu'ran and vedas etc, and then the realisation it's all lies, and illogic.
you can fit a ball through a square hole if the diameter is right, but you can fit the same size square through a circular hole, in other words atheism is a one way street.
unless you get a bang on the head then anything could happen.
 
geeser said:
... where do you think atheist come from, from strict study of the bible qu'ran and vedas etc, and then the realisation it's all lies, and illogic.
I agree with you.
But I don't think atheists necessarily do come from strict study of anything.
We are all born atheist.
We "become" religious through upbringing and having religion (usually the same as our parents) forced upon us in our society.
We return to atheism merely by switching back on the part of our brain that is logical and rational.

But one area of religion that is inescapable is that it can, and often does, offer people something in their lives that they need.
I have no problem with this - as many of my relatives are comforted in their faith and beliefs. It helps them.
Much of this comfort comes from the underlying "truth" of the various texts - which in essence are merely common sense in disguise - such as many of the 10 Commandments.

(p.s. I really only know the Christian faith as that is how I was raised - so can not really comment on others).
 
Hello longlostlady (and all):

I'm a noob here, but I'll offer up my perspective: If you wish to limit your definition of reality to only that which is available to us through our sensory input, then I'd have to agree with the atheists here that reason will not lead you to God. All the best arguments are on the side of the atheist.

Additionally, if God could be discerned through reason or direct experimental inquiry, that wouldn't leave any room for faith, and it would profoundly alter how we behave. If there is a God, it is pretty clear that he wishes to remain apart from this world for some reason, and perhaps this is why?

Finally, there are certainly possible scenarios for reality to exist in such a way that many, many truths are far beyond our little minds and our cherished "logic." Given this, I can see no reason to embrace either the theistic or atheistic perspectives. So I remain a staunch agnostic.

(BTW, great forum! I've been lurking here a bit, as I have been searching for a new place to discuss religion and philosophy. I have another board that I call home, but I've gotten quite accustomed to my interlocutors there, and need some fresh minds to challenge me....)
 
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**HEA... SOMEBODY ERASED THE POST FROM SOME MUSLIM GUY...

i responded to him.. now his post is gone....

thats bull...

i didnt agree with him...

but he should be allowed to speak his mind.**

His post were eraced, because there were all over the board with the same message, in other words he was spaming.

Godless
 
geeser said:
firstly welcome to sciforums.

Thank you.

nobody has said that your subjective mind cannot reason a god, but it cannnot do it in reality.

I am saying that reason alone cannot prove that God exists. Nothing can prove God's existense or non-existence; we can have evidence for or against, we can reason for or against, but nothing we have now can prove that He is real.

you cant have faith in atheism, faith is a religious thing. atheism is a totally lack of faith, in all baseless things.

Faith is the belief in something that cannot be proved; it is not limited to religious circles. If your friend tells you that he will come to visit you at a certain time, you do not KNOW that he will do it, but since you trust him, you have faith that he will come at the time he said he would. I always thought that Atheism was the belief that God does not exist...but if one takes your definition of a lack of faith, that is still faith. You are basically saying that no religion is worth believing in; thus you have faith that all religions are bunk.




sorry not so. you cant reason that a square is the same shapes as a circle, but your subjective mind maybe able to.

I do not understand your statement.

then please produce this evidence so we can all follow a god.

The evidence works for me. Just because I present it does not mean that it will convince you; it is not proof of God's existence. From all the physical, philosophical and ethical evidence for and against God's existence, there is enough evidence for me to confidently state that I believe that God exists and that He is interested in me.

For example, the basic question of how life began has only two possible answers to me: either it was created by a self-existent eternal life force, or it occured as a random event. One could say that one doesn't know how life begins; to me, that means that one doesn't want to make a decision between the two options. I believe that it is more reasonable to believe the first option instead of the second.

The existence of ethics also has a strong effect on my belief in God. If something is right or wrong, there must be some standard outside of that thing which determines it. To say that "everything is relative" is to make an absolute statement about everything; meaning that everything ISN'T relative. Since this absolute standard exists, I choose to call the source of that standard God.

These are admittedly simplistic, but it just serves as an example of my own beliefs; more time gives more discussion on this, I guess.




contradiction, and what evidence.

I do not understand your statement. What did I say that was contradictory?


not possible, I've found nothing, to say the he[C.S. Lewis] was an atheist, just the fact that he did'nt really follow his religion, this does not indicate he had no belief in a god.

Read the Wikipedia entry on C.S. Lewis's life (man, I don't know how I lived without that website :D I could spend all day there looking up random stuff). I post a quote from the "conversion to Christianity" section : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.S._Lewis

-----------
Although raised as a Christian, Lewis was an atheist for much of his youth. When he later wrote an account of his adult reconversion to Christianity, under the title Surprised by Joy, he said that he had been "very angry with God for not existing." Some interpret this to mean that he did not so much reject the existence of God as harbour anger at God for the unfairnesses in life. This interpretation appears to be contradicted by a letter to a friend, in which he said, "all religions, no, mythologies to give them their proper name, have no proof whatsoever!" The indifferent God is just as easily tested as the personal God of childhood, however, and in Lewis' considerations of an inadequate God within his own suffering, he began to believe in a deeper experience of some fundamentals of Western thought.

Influenced by arguments with his Oxford colleague and Roman Catholic friend J. R. R. Tolkien, and by G.K. Chesterton's book, The Everlasting Man, he slowly rediscovered Christianity. In 1929, he came to believe in the existence of God, later writing, "In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed," describing himself as "the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England."

In 1931, after a lengthy discussion with Tolkien and another close friend, Hugo Dyson, he reconverted to Christianity and (to the regret of Tolkien) joined the Church of England. He noted, "I came into Christianity kicking and screaming."

--------------------------------


but cristian like to use this, as a proof? that atheist can change, but you are asking the impossible.that goes without saying where do you think atheist come from, from strict study of the bible qu'ran and vedas etc, and then the realisation it's all lies, and illogic.
you can fit a ball through a square hole if the diameter is right, but you can fit the same size square through a circular hole, in other words atheism is a one way street.
unless you get a bang on the head then anything could happen.

People can change. I've seen people convert from atheism to Christianity, and vice versa. Whether you believe in atheism is your own decision, but you are wrong in saying that atheism is a one-way street. Anyone can change their minds at anytime about anything they believe for any reason.
 
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Sarkus said:
I agree with you.
But I don't think atheists necessarily do come from strict study of anything.
We are all born atheist.
We "become" religious through upbringing and having religion (usually the same as our parents) forced upon us in our society.
We return to atheism merely by switching back on the part of our brain that is logical and rational.

But one area of religion that is inescapable is that it can, and often does, offer people something in their lives that they need.
I have no problem with this - as many of my relatives are comforted in their faith and beliefs. It helps them.
Much of this comfort comes from the underlying "truth" of the various texts - which in essence are merely common sense in disguise - such as many of the 10 Commandments.

(p.s. I really only know the Christian faith as that is how I was raised - so can not really comment on others).

We aren't born knowing anything; we are born ignorant. A mean person would say "exactly; thus we are born atheist!" but I'm not mean :)

Seriously, we know nothing about nothing when we are born. We grow up with questions about where things came from and where things go, and while we are indoctrinated by our parents, we (usually) are not forced into anything. We make our own decisions when we become of age, as you did by becoming an atheist and as I did when I decided to remain a Christian.

You are right that religion offers people something that they need; we all have that need for something to believe in, whether it is religion or the lack thereof. If I may be so bold, what comforts you, as an atheist? I am not trying to say my comfort is better than yours, i'm just curious as to what you believe in as a means of support in rough times.


 
smallaxe0217 said:
You are right that religion offers people something that they need; we all have that need for something to believe in, whether it is religion or the lack thereof. If I may be so bold, what comforts you, as an atheist? I am not trying to say my comfort is better than yours, i'm just curious as to what you believe in as a means of support in rough times.
You are still showing a lack of understanding of atheism - which is merely a lack of the belief in God.

I have NO belief - in either the existence or non-existence of God.

I require NO belief.

I guess my main comfort is knowing that I am, and that I have friends who, through evidence of continued observation, would most likely help in my time of need, as I feel I would help them in theirs. There is no "belief" here, no "faith".
Other than that, I don't know what gives me comfort - I just am comfortable in where I am, with who I am.
 
smallaxe0217 said:

You are right that religion offers people something that they need; we all have that need for something to believe in, whether it is religion or the lack thereof.



I think there are plenty of people who don't have such a need to believe anything - in the sense of having some comprehensive worldview. They can get along fine without it.

Personally I think I would be a happier person if I was religious. But I cannot *will* myself to make the leap of faith - I've tried. It just doesn't work for me (at this point in my life, at least).
 
Godless said:
**HEA... SOMEBODY ERASED THE POST FROM SOME MUSLIM GUY...

i responded to him.. now his post is gone....

thats bull...

i didnt agree with him...

but he should be allowed to speak his mind.**

His post were eraced, because there were all over the board with the same message, in other words he was spaming.

Godless

I SEE.. thankyou.
 
smallaxe0217 said:
I am saying that reason alone cannot prove that God exists. Nothing can prove God's existence or non-existence; we can have evidence for or against, we can reason for or against, but nothing we have now can prove that He is real.
I dont thing geeser even suggested that, nobody can prove or disprove a gods existence, but you cant reason for one, this would be moot.
smallaxe0217 said:
I do not understand your statement.
you said "to me, reason can provide evidence for faith in God,and it can provide evidence for not having faith in God. It can also provide faith in atheism or faith in not following atheism, and it can provide evidence for anything you want to try and reason out."

thus what geeser was saying I think is your subjective reasoning could conjure up what ever reason you want to prove a god. but it would not make it so.
smallaxe0217 said:
For example, the basic question of how life began has only two possible answers to me: either it was created by a self-existent eternal life force, or it occured as a random event. One could say that one doesn't know how life begins; to me, that means that one doesn't want to make a decision between the two options. I believe that it is more reasonable to believe the first option instead of the second.
dispite all the evidence to the contary.
smallaxe0217 said:
The existence of ethics also has a strong effect on my belief in God.
ETHICS, have you read the bible.
smallaxe0217 said:
I do not understand your statement. What did I say that was contradictory?
you said "Faith doesn't mean that we prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that something will happen. If we prove something, then we don't have faith in it anymore because we KNOW that it is right; faith means that we believe it is right even though we can't prove it yet. We can provide mounds of evidence on one side or the other but evidence is not proof. All we can do is weigh the evidence and see for ourselve what we want to put our faith in."
the blue wording is the contradiction and well what evidence.
smallaxe0217 said:
Read the Wikipedia entry on C.S. Lewis's life (man, I don't know how I lived without that website I could spend all day there looking up random stuff). I post a quote from the "conversion to Christianity" section :
I agree with geeser, this just prove he was agnostic, there is nothing to indicate he was anything else.
smallaxe0217 said:
People can change. I've seen people convert from atheism to Christianity,
no you have'nt. agnostic to religious yes but atheist to no, no, no way.
smallaxe0217 said:
and vice versa. Whether you believe in atheism is your own decision, but you are wrong in saying that atheism is a one-way street. Anyone can change their minds at anytime about anything they believe for any reason
absolutely, but not from sensible to stupid.
smallaxe0217 said:
We aren't born knowing anything; we are born ignorant.
your arguements are invalid if you are born ignorant of a god then your an atheist.
smallaxe0217 said:
A mean person would say "exactly; thus we are born atheist!" but I'm not mean.
so all atheists are mean to you , in fact all atheist are of a higher moral character then you could ever aspirer to, they have a respect for life you could never have, they cant deprive any one of there right to live, they do good because they wish to not because of a fear of retribution or to appeaze a god.
 
WE HAVE NO WAY of knowing GOD is sentient... only that the energy came from somewhere.. and it resulted in symmetrical formations threwout space.
-MT
 
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