is it possible to find God by reason?

L

longlostlady

Registered Senior Member
um hello, i'm new so sorry if anything like this has been asked recently - have had a look through and can't find anything though so....

i'm currently doing some coursework on Aquinas and his Five Ways and am interested in other people's views on whether it is actually possible to find God by reason. I mean, there have been times in life when i have really wanted to believe in a personal God who was looking out for me, or at least that the struggling was worthwhile, but I can't make myself believe in God. And no matter how much i look at all the logical arguments to say that that God exists, there's still something that won't let me believe, even though I am perfectly willing to accept that there is a strong probability of a God, even if it is beyond our comprehension, whereas friends who have been raised with the belief in God have this belief even while acknowledging that there are many valid arguments against the existence of such a being.

So I guess what I'm really asking is can reasoning provide faith?

And as an aside, I'm also studying Luther, and while I'm aware that in the 16th century belief in God was almost universal (obviously within the geographical area we're talking about), would Lutheran principles of justification by faith mean that I was damned, no matter how i lived my life?
 
Hello and welcome to the forum. I, personally, am Taoist, so although I guess I can't directly answer your question, I would say that you are putting too much weight on trying to believe in God, and God alone.
In an attempt to answer you, however, I feel that reason can help you get closer to God, but not find him. No one thing can bring you god, but a combination of many things.
If I may, what logical arguments have you heard for God's existence?
 
Welcome to Sciforums.

There's no logical, or reasonable way to find that which is a negative, there's no evidence for a subjective idea such as a god. Thus your question (whether it is actually possible to find God by reason) Reason is what logically drove me away from the belief of a personal god. It is reason and logic that is used to refute this hypothetical entity.

Is the Christian God Logical?

Godless
 
religion,


when theorising about a god, throw all concepts of religion away the bible has nothing to do with this,

books are books,

i personally think it is possible for a god to exist, it is not impossible, people get religion science and philosophy all mixed up, god can be spoken about scientifically without mention of a bible, an energy source that is infinite and created everything. that isnt too far fetched for me to comprehend,

peace.
 
what is logic?, how one percieves something as relatively normal and reasonable?, whatyour 5 senses tell you is real.


i ask a question. is it logical to pick either side of an argument if you yourself dont even know the answer?


peace.
 
yes it can....

just study the sciences without the bias pushed by the secular atheists who dominate the sciences....

as i see it there is no major conflict between science and religion...

it is only bad interpretations of both which cause confussion.

-MT
 
Mosheh Thezion said:
yes it can....

just study the sciences without the bias pushed by the secular atheists who dominate the sciences....

as i see it there is no major conflict between science and religion...

it is only bad interpretations of both which cause confussion.

-MT
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its not science Vs religion, its people getting religion confused with god,

and how?, take existance for example, nobody on this earth knows anything about how existance istelf began, so to take one side in that kind of argument is not really logical is it,

peace.
 
THERE is only one side... truth.. which is best determined empirically...

everything else is theory... as are religions...

being views about reality and GOD... none of which is empirical fact.

facts require testing.... repeatable tests...

-MT

BUT MY FAITH IS FINE... cause i have studied all the sciences....
and i know the flaws the atheists like to ignore.... or dont see... due to bias.
 
EmptyForceOfChi said:
take existance for example, nobody on this earth knows anything about how existance istelf began, so to take one side in that kind of argument is not really logical is it.
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This is the crux - God is not illogical - it is just valueless - and logically consistent with something that doesn't exist.

The illogical thing is TO BELIEVE ANYTHING FOR WHICH THERE IS NO EVIDENCE.

That is illogical.
Utterly unreasonable.
And most religions require it.
 
seekeroftheway said:
I feel that reason can help you get closer to God, but not find him.
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how so?, god is a subjective thing, therefore it cannot be reasoned logically, it exists only in the mind, it's illusory.
seekeroftheway said:
No one thing can bring you god, but a combination of many things.
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but there all subjective, so you gain nothing but delusion.
seekeroftheway said:
If I may, what logical arguments have you heard for God's existence?
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absolutely none, for there are none.
 
"We all create God in our own image."

~ Captain Decker, Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

Crappy film, but an interesting and accurate philosophy. It is not God that creates us in its image, but we who create God in our own. Hence why God is usually represented as a wise, bearded, old man... That is an image that human beings have come to associate with wisdom... at least in the West. Buddha on the other hand has an altogether different appearance; fat, bald, and with long earlobes (to signify wisdom apparently). Buddha (if he really existed) wasn't a God, but he is an image associated with wisdom and subsequently religious enlightenment in South East Asia.
 
NO... it is man who is always personifying everything... especially GOD.
but it cannot be done.. and the whole thing is based on the idea that if we are GODS children... then we probubly look like GOD..

WHICH IS only an assumption.

-MT
 
wow, cool, replies!!!ok so i'm easily excited :rolleyes: thanks all, very helpful arguments going on...

"NO... it is man who is always personifying everything... especially GOD.
but it cannot be done.. and the whole thing is based on the idea that if we are GODS children... then we probubly look like GOD.."

isn't that - in Christianity - based on the whole mankind being created in God's image thing?

personally i wouldn't say that "God" has any sort of physicality that we can understand, being necessarily without space and time, but it's surely fair enough to personify God if one is assuming that he has human qualities like forgiveness, mercy, anger etc?
 
IT IS in genesis... yes... but the same applies..

we look like GOD.. because we are his children... WE BELIEVE. GET IT?

its not a fact, in anyway...

if we were all green and had orange spots... we still might believe the same thing.

-MT
 
There are arguments that back up the existence of some atemporal creation-force, certainly, but to believe in An all-loving Christian-like God you'd have to have faith. I doubt it can be forced, but you could always try going to some Hallelujah session and have people pray with you and try to find God that way. It's turned hard atheists before. Supposedly you start to feel terrified and infinetely loved at the same time. It might help if you go there under influence. I had this free Bible handed to methat had various personal accounts of finding God. One guy smoked hash laced with lsd by accidents and had a bad trip he didn't come out of before asking Jesus for help. So here's your options as I see them:

1. Group induced euphoria

2. Hallucogens

3. Any combination of the two.

Hey, I should write a book. "Three paths to God for the chronically analytic"

Also, you might ask Scientologists to brainwash you. Never know.

Anyway, this argues that since an infinite regression of events is impossible, a single eternal principle must exist to account for existence. Part 2, that is. Have fun!
 
I believe I was led to a different viewpoint of God by my rational inquiry. When I think about it this way it seems to me that different aspects or experiences of God are reached through different paths. Someday i hope to have an integrated view, but for now I suppose i will have to be satisfied with seeing one piece of the puzzle at a time.

I see the logical approach as a tool, sometimes you can hit yourself by accident when you are figuring out a new project. I see the ego similarly - logical arguments can point you to AND away from belief in God, and you can experience the ego but it will always bring positive AND negative, never just positive.

Also, I think there are some essential similarities between human and God, thus the phrase "in God's image". We create and destroy on a very high level. Actually perhaps it is better said that man, the entire group collectively, is created in God's image. As a group we are very much like God, but with some restrictions, and also with the whole disintegrated state of our group consciousness.
 
eineidloff said:
There are arguments that back up the existence of some atemporal creation-force,
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would like to see some links, thank you.
eineidloff said:
but to believe in An all-loving Christian-like God you'd have to have faith. I doubt it can be forced,
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depends on how you mean forced, indoctrination is a form of brainwashing, childrens minds are like sponges they believe whatever their told, and some adults for that matter.
eineidloff said:
but you could always try going to some Hallelujah session and have people pray with you and try to find God that way. It's turned hard atheists before.
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again would like to see some links.
please try to supply links in future, it makes for a better debate.
else you get looked on as a blithering idiot, this is a science forum after all.

if you want to be like woody/witnessJJ, genep then go ahead, but I think we have enough for any forum.
 
Uh, i did link the arguments of a creation force at the bottom. As for turning atheists, here's a link from this very forum.

That being said, I think you took my post a little too seriously, even though these are observed methods of "finding" god. You might think it out of place, but there are plenty of light-hearted threads in this forum, are there not? But by all means, I wouldn't want to play the blithering idiot.
 
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eineidloff said:
Uh, i did link the arguments of a creation force at the bottom.
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no serious links with some hard evidence.
metaphysics is just speculation about questions that are unanswerable to scientific experiment, observation, or analysis, you said "arguments that back up the existence of some atemporal creation-force,"
eineidloff said:
As for turning atheists, here's a link from this very forum.
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hard evidence, you are using one of those blithering idiots, to back up you statement? this is not hard evidence.

oh and a hearty welcome to sciforums.
 
geeser said:
no serious links with some hard evidence.
metaphysics is just speculation about questions that are unanswerable to scientific experiment, observation, or analysis, you said "arguments that back up the existence of some atemporal creation-force,"
hard evidence, you are using one of those blithering idiots, to back up you statement? this is not hard evidence.

oh and a hearty welcome to sciforums.
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Thank you.

First off, I'm not interested in backing up the existence of an atemporal creation force with hard evidence because

a) I do not believe in one and
b) there isn't any hard evidence for such a force

And whether or not you put any value in metaphysics, it is undoubtedly an argument for such a force, wouldn't you agree? Dictionary.com would agree, as one of their definitions of the term argument is A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood. Aristotle follows just such a course of reasoning and thus, even though you don't agree with him, presents an argument, which means, beyond a sliver of doubt, that there is an argument for such a force. Had I been trying to prove the existence of this principle, you might demand more of me. As I'm not, you may not. Do we see eye to eye yet :p ?

And what is your reason for refering to c20H25N3o by your pet term "blithering idiot"? He seemed a pleasant and intelligent individual in that thread, do you know something about him I don't? Do you perhaps refer to all converts as blithering idiots? If so, how could I possibly give you a testimony you'd credit? Do you truly believe no atheist has ever converted to Christianity?

I think there's been a misunderstanding here. Did you think me a theist?
 
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