Is it bad to believe in god?

[(Q)]

There is no "perfect" society because there is no way of measuring how good a society is.

That fact that prisons are filled with theists might give some indication, or the fact that most violent domestic crimes are primarily places where religion is dominant.

Actually, merely teaching morality is indoctrination, since morality is subjective.

Doing harm to others is considered subjective? If you look towards the Abrahamic religions, you'll easily find numerous quotes demonstrating cruelty and immorality, even though they were common acts perpetrated by the ignorance of men in medieval times. It is one of the worst types of morality one could teach, learn, or be indoctrinated in modern societies.

And again, science can't answer right and wrong, you need philosophy for that.

The dog barks, but the caravan passes.

 

[Balerion]

In other words, tolerance. Is tolerance preferable? Society has no obligation to be tolerant, and society is intolerant by definition. It's a set way of doing things. Anyone not of that set is out of place in that society.

Er.....that is what it is:bugeye:

Or left wing politicians that seek to destroy morality and destroy social order.

The people establish the establishment.

1) But how is society intolerant if it is always accepting?

2) No, according to Massachusetts and California, marriage is not only between a man and a woman.

3) C'mon, you know as well as I do that the politicians never really work to forward the ideals of their people. They run on empty promises.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

The powerful are given power by others.

They take power from those who can't fight it, think they can't or are blinded by the currently prevalent political beliefs.

 

[Norsefire]

That fact that prisons are filled with theists might give some indication, or the fact that most violent domestic crimes are primarily places where religion is dominant.

It's no surprise, after all prisoners probably are desperate for any sort of "forgiveness"; regardless, it depends on what nation we are speaking of. Prisons in North Korea probably don't have many theists.

Doing harm to others is considered subjective?

What do you mean?

If you look towards the Abrahamic religions, you'll easily find numerous quotes demonstrating cruelty and immorality, even though they were common acts perpetrated by the ignorance of men in medieval times. It is one of the worst types of morality one could teach, learn, or be indoctrinated in modern societies.

No, what you'll find is violence. As I said, some violence is justified. Most of the "immorality" you find in the Abrahamic texts regards punishment, and it isn't very immoral to punish the evil, no matter how cruel the punishment is.

As I said, morality is subjective and therefore merely teaching anything which is subjective as fact could be considered a form of "indoctrination" or brainwashing. But it's a necessary brainwashing. It doesn't have to be a religious morality, but whatever the morality IS, it has to be socially accepted universally.

And you've failed to show me how science can answer moral questions.

1) But how is society intolerant if it is always accepting?

Society isn't always accepting; there's no such thing as 'liberal society', it's a contradiction.

2) No, according to Massachusetts and California, marriage is not only between a man and a woman.

According to common sense, the reason there are two genders is because they are supposed to be with each other. If human biology were meant to be homosexual, we wouldn't have two sexes. The sexual organs of man and woman are counterparts.

3) C'mon, you know as well as I do that the politicians never really work to forward the ideals of their people. They run on empty promises.

Of course, this is a sad fact. It doesn't have to be that way, though.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

Norsefire --- According to common sense, the reason there are two genders is because they are supposed to be with each other.

=====COMMON SENSE????? Supposed by who? People who make suppositions.

Norsefire ---If human biology were meant to be homosexual, we wouldn't have two sexes.

=====Meant by who????? We do have homosexuals & we do have 2 genders.

Norsefire --- The sexual organs of man and woman are counterparts.

=====Nothing could be truer. There's much much more to sex & romance & attraction, etc than sexual organs.

 

[Balerion]

Society isn't always accepting; there's no such thing as 'liberal society', it's a contradiction.

So are you ever going to cite me an example, or is your game to just say "This is how it is" without ever backing it up? Yeah, that's what I thought.

According to common sense, the reason there are two genders is because they are supposed to be with each other. If human biology were meant to be homosexual, we wouldn't have two sexes. The sexual organs of man and woman are counterparts.

That isn't at question here. But if you want to go down that road, is it possible for homosexuality to occur? Absolutely. So why shut it out? It's a natural occurrence, so why should people in our federal government try to outlaw something that is so natural to so many?

 

[Norsefire]

So are you ever going to cite me an example, or is your game to just say "This is how it is" without ever backing it up? Yeah, that's what I thought.

This isn't about example, it's about logic. How can a society be tolerant? A society, in itself, is a specific formation. In a true society, all of the people are culturally uniform. That is what makes it a society: common ground among the people. A "society" in which the people just ignore each other isn't a society. Interaction and common ground is absolutely necessary. Therefore, if we have a society, that society has its own norms, its own expectations, and its own operation. How does it make sense for it to be "tolerant" of anything else? That isn't what a society does. Society is social; as such, there must be certain common agreements among the people regarding 1) culture 2) morality 3) identity 4) loyalty

If they aren't in agreement on most of those, it isn't a society.

That isn't at question here. But if you want to go down that road, is it possible for homosexuality to occur? Absolutely. So why shut it out? It's a natural occurrence, so why should people in our federal government try to outlaw something that is so natural to so many?

Of course, I'm not saying it is wrong. But it isn't our social norm, and it is out of place. It makes far more sense to develop a specific homosexual society than to destroy our current cultural cohesion.

 

[Balerion]

This isn't about example, it's about logic. How can a society be tolerant? A society, in itself, is a specific formation. In a true society, all of the people are culturally uniform. That is what makes it a society: common ground among the people. A "society" in which the people just ignore each other isn't a society. Interaction and common ground is absolutely necessary. Therefore, if we have a society, that society has its own norms, its own expectations, and its own operation. How does it make sense for it to be "tolerant" of anything else? That isn't what a society does. Society is social; as such, there must be certain common agreements among the people regarding 1) culture 2) morality 3) identity 4) loyalty

So you just made that whole thing up, did ya?

Explain to me how, then, so many things in Western society that used to be taboo are now culturally acceptable. Please, I beg you, if you rigid societal structure is true, then explain the gaps in your "logic".

And here, I'll give you an example, since you obviously can't find one that backs your ridiculous claim: New York City. No, seriously, go to New York City and explain to me how that society looks anything like the one you just hypothesized.

Of course, I'm not saying it is wrong. But it isn't our social norm, and it is out of place. It makes far more sense to develop a specific homosexual society than to destroy our current cultural cohesion.

See, this is another example of you just having no clue what you're talking about. Homosexuals have already set up their own culture. They have their own clubs, they have their own parades, they even have their own TV network. How does it destroy cultural cohesion for them to be allowed the same social rights as heterosexuals? Oh, that's right, it doesn't.

 

[Norsefire]

So you just made that whole thing up, did ya?

Explain to me how, then, so many things in Western society that used to be taboo are now culturally acceptable. Please, I beg you, if you rigid societal structure is true, then explain the gaps in your "logic".

A simple explanation: Western society isn't a society, for the most part. Sure, they are advancing technologically, but culturally they are stagnant and there is little social cohesion. The more tolerant, the less culture. You are losing common cultural ground.

And here, I'll give you an example, since you obviously can't find one that backs your ridiculous claim: New York City. No, seriously, go to New York City and explain to me how that society looks anything like the one you just hypothesized.

New York City isn't much of a society.

You are dealing with legalities. Sure, these Western "societies" have alot of diversity and tolerance, but they aren't culturally conform. That's the problem. And cultural conformity is absolutely necessary for social cohesion (society).

See, this is another example of you just having no clue what you're talking about. Homosexuals have already set up their own culture. They have their own clubs, they have their own parades, they even have their own TV network.

Exactly, so they can go make their own nation now too.

How does it destroy cultural cohesion for them to be allowed the same social rights as heterosexuals? Oh, that's right, it doesn't.

It most certainly does. Our society is, by and large, heterosexual when it comes to the topic of love. Homosexuality is a group that doesn't fit in the extreme.

 

[Balerion]

A simple explanation: Western society is crumbling. The more tolerant, the less culture. You are losing common cultural ground.

Total cop-out and total lie. Western society is as strong as ever. The only thing threatening it, actually, are the religious folks pressuring the governments to bend to their will despite society being absolutely against it.

New York City isn't much of a society.

You've never been there, have you?

You are dealing with legalities. Sure, these Western "societies" have alot of diversity and tolerance, but they aren't culturally conform. That's the problem. And cultural conformity is absolutely necessary for social cohesion (society).

I'm failing to see a problem...and I don't suppose you would have any examples to point to? No? Is that once again asking for too much?

Exactly, so they can go make their own nation now too.

Ah, bigotry finally rears its ugly head. What took so long? Hey, next time, just save me the trouble and say something retarded right from the start.

It most certainly does. Our society is, by and large, heterosexual when it comes to the topic of love. Homosexuality is a group that doesn't fit in the extreme.

Again, can you point to an area in our society that would fail if homosexuals were given the right to marry? I'm looking at California...nope, no new problems there. Massachusetts...nope, nothing to report there, either. So unless you have an example for me, I gotta go.

 

[Norsefire]

Total cop-out and total lie. Western society is as strong as ever. The only thing threatening it, actually, are the religious folks pressuring the governments to bend to their will despite society being absolutely against it.

First off, modern Western "society" is based on religion by and large

However, as for your "strong as ever" statement, that's total crap. As I've already explained, a society needs to be united ideologically. Western "society" isn't; instead, you have so many different behavioral ideologies and cultures, that there is no UNIFIED single society. There is no structure, no order.

How can we call ourselves a society if we have absolutely nothing in common and couldn't care less about each other? The only "society" in the West is economic.

If we truly have our own way of doing things, as a unified society, how can we tolerate another? And if we do, doesn't that mean we AREN'T a unified society?

We need a unified cultural and moral outlook in order to have structure, and structure in order to have society. Western "society" is just a bunch of people living in one area without much of a sense of loyalty and identity to each other, from what I see.

You've never been there, have you?

How is it a society? There are a bunch of different cultures and identities, how can you call it a society? It's a bunch of mini-societies. However, having alot of mini-societies creates a problem for government. Having a single society makes it alot easier and more comfortable for everyone.

I'm failing to see a problem...and I don't suppose you would have any examples to point to? No? Is that once again asking for too much?

The problem is a lack of social cohesion. We have economic cohesion, but no sense of loyalty to each other.

As I said, if we are to have a structured society (therefore, that society must be uniform among the individual within it, to have THEIR OWN social codes of behavior), we need

1) A relatively uniform culture
2) A moral code that is the accepted norm
3) One social identity
4) One social loyalty
5) One social goal

If we don't have these things, how is it that we are a society?

Ah, bigotry finally rears its ugly head. What took so long? Hey, next time, just save me the trouble and say something retarded right from the start.

It isn't bigotry, it's common sense. Nations should be formed for people with things in common, right?

Again, can you point to an area in our society that would fail if homosexuals were given the right to marry? I'm looking at California...nope, no new problems there. Massachusetts...nope, nothing to report there, either. So unless you have an example for me, I gotta go.

California, a society? HAHAHA! No.

It is a state, with many different mini-societies. There is NO single society in existence anywhere in the West, well, there probably isn't.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

Homosexuals should be exiled. Asexuals should be counseled then exiled if they will not change. (Bisexuals will service the rich) Old maids should be forced to marry. Every married couple should be forced to have 1.6 children. Blacks should be kept in their proper place. Women should be kept barefoot & pregnant. Everyone healthy should be forced to work steady jobs. Everyone should dress the same & cut their hair the same. Women should be forced to shave their legs & underarms. Men must wear suits & ties. Each city should have a section for all the handicapped. The Grand Ole Flag must be saluted any time it comes in sight. Everyone must stand & salute during the Pledge Of Allegiance & The National War Song. Speaking against the Government is blasphemy. Ambrosia & sushi should be outlawed. There should be only 1 religion. Anyone who misses more than 1 church service in 3 months will be jailed for 3 days. The 3rd such offense within 7 years should require them locked the public stocks for 3 days. There will be only 7 styles of houses to choose from. 3 styles of ladies dresses. 3 styles each of men's shoes & ladies shoes. Only 1 style of car. Anyone caught not wearing underwear will be locked in the public stocks for 7 days if female or 3 days if male. Anyone saying the moon doesn't rotate will be under house arrest for 3 years. Jokes must be approved by the local Tribunal. Weird recipes must be approved by the Supreme Tribunal. Girls & boys cannot hold hands until the girl is 15 & the boy is 16. They cannot kiss until the girl is 17 & the boy is 18. They cannot CENCORED CENCORED CENCORED CENCORED they are 23 & married. Everyone must marry within the county they were born in. All music must be approved by the Supreme Tribunal. Any minority culture & customs must be adapted to fit the ways of the majority. The majority is right in everything & the Supreme Tribunal interprets the ways of the majority. There will be only 12 breeds of dogs & 7 breeds of cats. Everyone must sleep between 9pm & 7am. Everyone must work between 5am & 10pm. All businesses must open by 9am & close by 9pm. It should be illegal to stand in public & wave or rotate 1's arms for no apparent reason. There will be no lollygagging. Or dillydallying. Jaywalkers will be shot on sight.

 

[Balerion]

First off, modern Western "society" is based on religion by and large

In what respect? Oh, that's right, I forgot: you just make ridiculous statements without merit and refuse to back them up with relevant examples.

However, as for your "strong as ever" statement, that's total crap. As I've already explained, a society needs to be united ideologically. Western "society" isn't; instead, you have so many different behavioral ideologies and cultures, that there is no UNIFIED single society. There is no structure, no order.

In your opinion, obviously. But who made you the judge of such things? To say there is no order is a complete lie, however. You can walk down the street freely, you can order a pizza, you can sue someone for harassment, you are protected by your police force...where is the lack of structure?

We need a unified cultural and moral outlook in order to have structure, and structure in order to have society. Western "society" is just a bunch of people living in one area without much of a sense of loyalty and identity to each other, from what I see.

Ah, so we finally get the magic words: from what I see. It's about time you put a personal spin on the stuff you've been saying, since all of it is complete nonsense belonging to you alone and existing totally within the confines of you imagination.

How is it a society? There are a bunch of different cultures and identities, how can you call it a society? It's a bunch of mini-societies. However, having alot of mini-societies creates a problem for government. Having a single society makes it alot easier and more comfortable for everyone.

No, what we have are a bunch of different races, creeds, colors, and even cultures, living in one society under unified, universal rules. You have made it perfectly clear that you don't want such a thing to exist, but you can't simply say it doesn't because you don't want it to. Tell me, where is the problem for the government? No, don't run away, you were the one who said "[it] creates a problem for government", so tell me in what way the situation as it is in New York City is a problem for government.

Please. Tell me. Show me one example, please, for the first time in this entire conversation.

The problem is a lack of social cohesion. We have economic cohesion, but no sense of loyalty to each other.

No, we are doing just fine. You, on the other hand, find yourself on a sinking island of bigotry, and you've decided that it must not simply be your problem and the problem of those like you, but the problem of society as a whole. No, sorry, that's not the case. Society is doing fine. Those like you--the bigots, the ones that cling to their scriptures and scream while all the things you deem as immoral are being readily accepted into society--are dying out. So yes, I understand how it must seem grim for you. But trust me, you are the vast minority here, and that is why you feel so isolated.

It isn't bigotry, it's common sense. Nations should be formed for people with things in common, right?

No, it's not common sense. Common sense would be realizing that homosexuality has existed in every society and culture and civilization since the dawn of Man, even under the most detrimental and dangerous of circumstances, which should tell you not only that it is very real, but that it is very natural. And thus there is no need to hate on it.

California, a society? HAHAHA! No.

OK, you laugh. So far, that's as close as you've come to citing an example to back up your claims.

It is a state, with many different mini-societies. There is NO single society in existence anywhere in the West, well, there probably isn't.

Baseless, as usual.

I'm done here, since you simply, for lack of a better term, talk out your ass. Have a great day, bigot.