Is Islam an Expansionist Religion?

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-Yes I know, Satan Worshippers are the one.
-A quote from President Bush speech after 911.

"blah blah blah blah blah" (Applause.)

There seem to be two positions on Islam taken by politicians in the West.

The Conservatives, represented by Bush, say Islam is a religion of peace that has been hijacked by a few extremists.

The Liberals say that the WoT is a bumper sticker only and there are just a few criminals who need to be handled through law enforcement and it doesn't have anything to do with Islam.

Both are seriously wrong.
 

-A quote from President Bush speech after 911.

"Al Qaeda is to terror what the mafia is to crime. But its goal is not making money; its goal is remaking the world -- and imposing its radical beliefs on people everywhere.

The terrorists practice a fringe form of Islamic extremism that has been rejected by Muslim scholars and the vast majority of Muslim clerics -- a fringe movement that perverts the peaceful teachings of Islam. The terrorists' directive commands them to kill Christians and Jews, to kill all Americans, and make no distinction among military and civilians, including women and children.
...
We are not deceived by their pretenses to piety. We have seen their kind before. They are the heirs of all the murderous ideologies of the 20th century. By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions -- by abandoning every value except the will to power -- they follow in the path of fascism, and Nazism, and totalitarianism. And they will follow that path all the way, to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies. (Applause.)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html
2 points here:
1) who wrote this speech? seems they misquoted islamic history
2) islam & the sword are one, muslim history did not start in 2001, it started in 622, once Mohammad found out that he could rob Meccans & Jews with impunity, then after his death, the Ridda wars then the wars of conquest
islam did not spread from Spain to India by missionaries, unless you call generals holy monks?
 
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-How is that justified not to happen in the Bible or Quran ?
-Or is it just a command ~ code ?

it all has to do with the status of people involved, in islamic society, muslim men are high status, then muslim women, then dhimmi men, then dhimmi women, infidels like Bahia's are at the bottom.

so using that logic, a muslim man can marry any female, because he, as a man will have power over the wife

a chrisitian man can marry a dhimmi wife or an infidel, but not a muslim women, because that would place him in authority over a musilm, thats forbitten, so no go

an infidel man can marry a dhimmi woman or another infidel one, cause they are all low status
 
Its just a waste of time, the ability to use logic and reasoning is just not there. My grandparents left Europe for a reason and i think they would have swam to U.S to get out of there...just like the Cubans do.

Why? There are just too many reasons. The most obvious is Germany during WW2, how in the world did someone not just walk up to Hitler and kick him in the balls and lock him up for life? As a child i would have done that, i would have recognized that this person is a lunatic. Yet these people actually embraced his insanity and even let it rub off on the, albeit temporarily. The end result= rubble. Then we have communism and Russia, can anyone explain to me how people could have fell for that one? Communism??? that is a F'ing fantasy yet to this day people actually believe it as a philosophy can exist, but it is beyond the scope of human ability. Accept it because it is FACT.

Give me a few million stupid people and i can rule the world, give me a few billion and i can do it in a decade or less. That is not to say the Europeans are more gullible than others because they are not but to let it permeate and propagate to be mainstream is not beneficial to the planet.

Look at evolution, it does not even make sense and try to show these (mostly Europeans) people that it is a physical impossibility and ascientific (beyond the realms of nature) and they just get out their 'holy' books and read verbatim. Its frustrating but at the same time why should a person expect more? Look at present civilization, hiding behind a word - SCIENCE - and discussing it as if it is a living entity...they are dreaming about a word and destroying the planet at the same time. They get on their knees and pray at an alter with a shrine to a word - SCIENCE - and do not even see that they are blind......why? why? whyyyyyyy?

And all this science i don't understand
It's just my job five days a week

Rocket Man (John99)
 
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1)LOL You Quote bush as some kind of great knowledgable sage, as if his word ends the discussion.


2)I would love for all the peace loving muslims to become followers of Jesus and all the gun toting christians to go and join the jihadists and become muslims, it would make things clearer to the world and make my job easier. But unfortunately that’s not going to happen.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

1)-Or provoke more, I´m not that simple, ya know ? ;)
2)-well said, I´m afraid too that its not going to happen, sad.

There seem to be two positions on Islam taken by politicians in the West.

The Conservatives, represented by Bush, say Islam is a religion of peace that has been hijacked by a few extremists.

The Liberals say that the WoT is a bumper sticker only and there are just a few criminals who need to be handled through law enforcement and it doesn't have anything to do with Islam.

Both are seriously wrong.

-Are you saying that hes not the man for the job, or just a puppet ? two ongoing wars in Islamic nations and threaten to start more. ? . -Yes, he is really soft. ? .
-Like he is saying what he means, or not ?

2 points here:
1) who wrote this speech? seems they misquoted islamic history
2) islam & the sword are one, muslim history did not start in 2001, it started in 622, once Mohammad found out that he could rob Meccans & Jews with impunity, then after his death, the Ridda wars then the wars of conquest
islam did not spread from Spain to India by missionaries, unless you call generals holy monks?

1) -Not Junior for sure, the Neo-Con think thank ?
2) -Somekind of religion of defence by start, then later, expansionist like Chriastianity and their inquisition and Crusades.
-Religion is just tool for the masses. Where there is despair, their are the most easy to manipulate, I guess Muslims are feeling little surrounded in ME.
-The Islam needs time to change from within to be modern , something that did take about 1800 years in Christianity. And the current situation leads the opposite way, sad.

it all has to do with the status of people involved, in islamic society, muslim men are high status, then muslim women, then dhimmi men, then dhimmi women, infidels like Bahia's are at the bottom.

so using that logic, a muslim man can marry any female, because he, as a man will have power over the wife

a chrisitian man can marry a dhimmi wife or an infidel, but not a muslim women, because that would place him in authority over a musilm, thats forbitten, so no go

an infidel man can marry a dhimmi woman or another infidel one, cause they are all low status

-Damn you Theist (?) are hard to understand ;)
-So both religion are "paternals", man over a women, thats evil.
-How come that if Christian man is the head and posses the power in Theism over women, then, how could it be that he would lose hes authority to Islam via marrying women whom he has power over ? where is my Kalevala ?

-And The Kalevala of the Day !!!

Solid old Väinämöinen spoke a word, to tell:
Mentioned I am, guessed in times
to joy in the evenings, singing in every valley
in those meadows of Väinölä, in the fields of Kalevala.
Hapless I might be by now, hardly know myself.

vainamoinen2.jpg


Väinämöinen, The Son of The Mother God Ilmatar in Hes first trip to underworld, answering to The Hostess of The Dark North, Louhi, who he is.
 
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-Are you saying that hes not the man for the job, or just a puppet ? two ongoing wars in Islamic nations and threaten to start more. ? . -Yes, he is really soft. ? .
-Like he is saying what he means, or not ?

Not saying either. Only that his words do not reflect the truth. I cannot know what he really believes. Perhaps he is being politically correct.

-The Islam needs time to change from within to be modern , something that did take about 1800 years in Christianity. And the current situation leads the opposite way, sad.

As soon as the power of the Catholic church began to crumble in the 1500's because of the Protestant Reformation, the Renaissance occurred in Europe. A similar renaissance did not occur in Muslim lands. The Crusades were eventually won by Europe not by military strength, but by economic strength brought on by the advances in science and engineering in the Renaissance.

There are some interesting theories why science and technology did not take off Muslim dominated territory It appears to be associated with religious beliefs. If you look at Nobel prise winners in science for example, you will see few Muslims but plenty of Christians and Jews. One theory is that in Islam, if one doesn't understand something, it's explained by Allah's way or will. This tends to depress inquisitive thought. But I don't know, probably a good topic for another thread.
 
The goal of true islam is to gain control of the entire earth via jihad. And this muslim is simply stating the truth of the fact and declaring his willingness to do the will of muhammad as all true muslims do.
Im a true Muslim. This, what I do here and on 5 other forums, is my Jihad. Give me verses that support your theory that the goal of Islam is to conquer the world through Jihad?
Im pretty sure you wont find any and I sure as hell don’t want a lesson in my religion from someone who has never read the Quran or been a Muslim. Or have you?
yeah, most don't use the sword, but that was only about 1400 years ago, no biggy
oh, yeah, there is that little problem in Indonesia: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/008206.php[/quote
oh, yeah also in Sudan: http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article17563
in Pakistan: http://www.cfr.org/publication/7045/religious_sword_over_pakistan.html
I guess you really are stupid. If not for your post asking why no Muslim has ever won the Noble Peace prize then for this. These are Muslim countries where Muslims are killed by these terrorists. A point you seem to be missing. So who is in the right? Those people killing others or the people being killed?

Also, Jihadwatch? Thats a hate site. The whole concept behind it. Search in Google for anti-semitic or anti-zionist or anti-christian or anti-anything sites and you will find them. Youll find what you want to find, doesn’t mean its true.
Freedom is an illusion. That being said if it were not for the Crusades we would all be Muslim due to constant invasion by force.
Haha! Constant invasion by force! What a laughable post. If you don’t see the irony in this then, oh well...
In Christianity there are missionaries who travel to all parts of the world to spread the religion by being good examples and charitiy. Does Islam have similar missionaries? If so, I have never heard of them.
An example of your ignorance. Just because you don’t see them doesn’t mean that they are not there. I know they are there. Want to know why? Because my father was sent to Africa and we went along. He wasn’t sent as a religious missionary, like Christians do who will only save you or give you food if you listen to the Bible or learn about Christianity, but as a doctor. His duty was to build and run hospitals and clinics and we also built schools. Seeing our work and everything we did whole tribes converted to Islam. More recently he was sent to Kashmir to help setup clinics after the earthquake there. Ive also seen friends go help after the Boxing Day Tsunami. I know of a lot of people who live in 3rd world countries to help those people, by teaching them how to grow crops of their own or to build. I personally help with filling trucks with aid for African nations.
If you want to know about other Muslim charities in 3rd world countries, look it up on the net.
The only kind of missionary effort I have seen from Islam his by obediance to Gods admonision, go forth and multiply, in Genesis and by the point of a sword or gun. Is my perception in error? Can someone supply me with evidence of peaceful missionary work of Islam?
Where has this missionary work taken place? Also, Im not going to do your work for you. Search for Islamic Charities.
Even in a democracy the rich and powerful secure their wealth and influence. Its always been the same. Perhaps Islam was successful as a precipitate to rally against this? However, that was a long time ago and now Islam itself is what people rally against..
Just the ignorant and hateful.
Islam is fundamentally flawed - the notions of monotheism and "Mohammad was the last prophet" sets the system up to revert back to demagoguery and that's exactly what happened and hence we read this sort of tripe even today.
Its not fundamentally flawed, unlike your argument, because let me tackle this myth you have about Islam once and for all: I, as a Muslim, do not believe the Holy Prophet was the last Prophet ever.
Unlike Xiaity which has a powerful psychological impact (forgiveness) Islam only has .. and mo was the last prophet. It's really not that powerful - more like a statement. One asks - AND what does this do for me?? Nothing. Just accept it.
As I’ve stated before I don’t believe that he is the last Prophet ever. The debate about Khatam-e-Nabiyeen is long and complex and something you wouldn’t be able to grasp because of your lack of knowledge about the Arabic lexicon and the Quran.
I find one of the core principals in Islam is simply teaching intolerance (and sometimes even hatred) against Christians and Jews. I hear it over an over and over and over and over again - we even read it here. It's as if Islam was successful as a revolution against the establishment; but now that Islam IS the establishment it must maintain itself by setting itself up as being opposed to everyone that is not Islamic.
Completely wrong. It doesn’t teach hatred about Jews or Christians or anyone. Support this argument of yours with verses from the Quran so we can have a proper discussion on this.
The writing is on the wall - Islam is doomed to failure and much like the Gods it replaced it too will be replaced.
Ah, sorry to burst your bubble my friend. Islam is here to stay. It is growing and not just by birth. It is and will replace Christianity and the world will be better for it because some of the doctrines of Christianity are fundamentally flawed like sin and salvation. But before that can happen, Muslims will need to tackle these terrorists, these hypocrites against whom we were warned by the Prophet and the Quran.
Another myth I want to get out of the way here is that some of you keep saying Islam is violent and Bhuddism is on the other end as peaceful and that there are no Bhuddist terrorists. While I agree there are no Bhuddist terrorists I also say there are no Muslim terrorists. I don’t believe in naming terrorists after their religion. I find that extremely narrowminded. But lets take a look at what, if you were fair and applied the same logic to other terrorists as you do those who call themselves Muslims, would classifiy as Bhuddist terrorists and or extremists:

Some Buddhists burn down a mosque:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDQ/is_2004_May_3/ai_n6278692

Some Buddhists kill some Muslims:
http://www.tamilnet.com/art.html?catid=13&artid=6825

Pro-War Monks Turn Peace Rally Into Fracas:
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34382

Buddhism and War:
http://faculty.uml.edu/enelson/buddhismandwar.htm

Advent of `Buddhist terrorism':
http://www.state-terrorism.net/buddhist_terrorism.htm

Democratic Karen Buddhist Army (DKBA):
http://www.tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=3583

Cambodian monks charged with terrorism:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1114345.stm

Also, I wouldnt be praising Talduwe Somarama to the Bandaranaike family.

And there are more but you can find them on your own. Also, under your ignorant classification of terrorists you can add Jewish Terrorism, Christian Terrorism etc. Let me quote someone:
You ask whether I understand that Islamic terrorist acts are religiously motivated?
Sounds like you are "begging the question". You are assuming by the use of the term Islam - a religious faith - that if a member of that religion commits a terrorist act it is religiously motivated, and asking if I understand that.
It's like me asking you - Do you understand that if a Christian commits a terrorist act it is religiously motivated? By calling the terrorist a Christian in that sentence, it begs the real question of the motivation behind the act, and assumes it is religiously motivated because the terrorist is a Christian. It is a circular argument, a logical fallacy. It's as if I say X is true because X is true without saying why.
There can be many motivations for terrorism
Also, let me quote another thing:
The roots of this problem lie in the centuries of colonial domination and the years of de facto colonization since then. The roots of the problem lie in continued Western support to bullies, military dictators, kings, sheikhs and other tyrpes of tyrants in the Muslim world. The roots lie in their systematic oppression. The roots lie is denying the weak to exercise their right to self-determination and self-rule.
Don't blame the reaction for all the mess the colonial masters and their puppets have created on Islam. There is no concept of terrorism or terrorising a single individual in Islam - let alone forcing the world into submission against its will. Colonialists and totalitarians, however, have been using torture (remeber Abu Ghraib and Gurantanamo) collective punishments (Fallujah) and terrorism (shock and awe) as the main tools for making nations submit to their will.
You are facing "Islamist terrorism" and "all terrorists are Muslims" because the victims of your aggression are Muslims. Trying imposing genocidal sanctions on one of your allies and kill 1.8 million of its people. Then, try lying about the same ally - lie through your teeth to the UN and to the world just like your leaders did about Iraq. Then, based on those lies, invade your ally. Kill a million more. And only then you will see a Christian Al-Qaeda and Christianist terrorism, or a Bhuddhist al-Qaeda and Bhuddist terrorism, or may be a Hindu and Jewish Al-Qaeda. People are the same everywhere. Irrespective of what faith they believe in, as human beings they react in the same way. The laws of nature are the same everywhere. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
 
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Looks like we have another false muslim in denail.

Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Qur’an 9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

Qur’an 47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”

Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’”

Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”


True muslims believe in the words of muhammed and seek to do what they have been told to do from their spiritual leader. The "Islamists" whocomit acts of terrorisim are in fact the true followers of muhammed. They are the ones using terror and war to fight and kill the infidels to bring about the worlds submission to the religion of muhammed. They are the ones who are going about the call of muhammed to ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’” Of cource there are false muslims like you who say thet their faith is about tollerance and love. Their faith might be about tollerancve and love BUT THEIR FAITH IS NOT THE RELIGION OF TRUE ISALM it is a derived faith created by people who do not want to follow the call of muhammed to wage jihad without end untill all the world submits to the religion of muhammed.

So the violent muslims are the truemuslims while the peace loving and tollerant muslims have created their own religion because they do not want to follow what muhammed told them to do.

even in muhammeds day there where false muslims who did not have the heart for bloodshed and sowing terror:

Qur’an 9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”

True muslims are inflicting murder on the false muslims we read about it every day.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Looks like we have another false muslim in denail.

Whatever helps you sleep at night babe.

Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Qur’an 9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

Qur’an 47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”

Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’”

Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”

I have gone over these verses some time ago and shown that the interpreation you are implying is wrong. No point in me repeating myself. Or maybe you missed that :shrug:


True muslims believe in the words of muhammed and seek to do what they have been told to do from their spiritual leader. The "Islamists" whocomit acts of terrorisim are in fact the true followers of muhammed. They are the ones using terror and war to fight and kill the infidels to bring about the worlds submission to the religion of muhammed. They are the ones who are going about the call of muhammed to ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’” Of cource there are false muslims like you who say thet their faith is about tollerance and love. Their faith might be about tollerancve and love BUT THEIR FAITH IS NOT THE RELIGION OF TRUE ISALM it is a derived faith created by people who do not want to follow the call of muhammed to wage jihad without end untill all the world submits to the religion of muhammed.

So the violent muslims are the truemuslims while the peace loving and tollerant muslims have created their own religion because they do not want to follow what muhammed told them to do.

even in muhammeds day there where false muslims who did not have the heart for bloodshed and sowing terror:

Qur’an 9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”

True muslims are inflicting murder on the false muslims we read about it every day.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Its clear im dealing with a child here whose limited intellect prevents him from researching the reasons behind terrorism committed by people from those areas. Just to help you make some start into researching the hisotyr that led us to where we are now, I suggest you pick up this from your local library and read it. If its too big just read the first essay in it.
 
Whatever helps you sleep at night babe.



I have gone over these verses some time ago and shown that the interpreation you are implying is wrong. No point in me repeating myself. Or maybe you missed that :shrug:




Its clear im dealing with a child here whose limited intellect prevents him from researching the reasons behind terrorism committed by people from those areas. Just to help you make some start into researching the hisotyr that led us to where we are now, I suggest you pick up this from your local library and read it. If its too big just read the first essay in it.


Your life of denial is in vain. The truth of the pudding is in the tasting and the fruit of islam is clear for the world to see. I don't need to resort to targeting the person by calling them babe and a child. I will let the bloody savagery if the followers of muhammad time and time again back up what is becoming clearer and clearer to the non islamic populations of the world.

The days of islam are numbered, they have been totally deceived and will be sacrificed to further satans purpose



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Your life of denial is in vain. The truth of the pudding is in the tasting and the fruit of islam is clear for the world to see. I don't need to resort to targeting the person by calling them babe and a child. I will let the bloody savagery if the followers of muhammad time and time again back up what is becoming clearer and clearer to the non islamic populations of the world.

The days of islam are numbered, they have been totally deceived and will be sacrificed to further satans purpose



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Which followers? oh you mean the ones YOU think are the real ones. So the other billion are just morons right. Ye, right. I called you child because your intellect is that of a child.
 
Which followers? oh you mean the ones YOU think are the real ones.
I think all, but I'm waiting to be proved wrong

So the other billion are just morons right. Ye, right.
morons? 1 billion here, a billion there, isn't that what you think of Christians, Hindus & Buddhists?

I called you child because your intellect is that of a child.
& your intellect is? & how can you prove it?
 
I think all, but I'm waiting to be proved wrong

WEll your search is over. Go over and look at te Humanity First site. Thats run by my mosque. Now youve been proved wrong.

morons? 1 billion here, a billion there, isn't that what you think of Christians, Hindus & Buddhists?

Nope, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists have my respect. I dont think theyre morons

& your intellect is? & how can you prove it?

You can prove it by not making narrowminded remakrs about an issue you barely know something about.
 
Which followers? oh you mean the ones YOU think are the real ones. So the other billion are just morons right. Ye, right. I called you child because your intellect is that of a child.

A religion is not what the majority decide it is. A religion is what is contained in the teachings of its scriptures.

Yes, millions of supposed muslims are ones who compromise with the infidel so that they can live a peaceful life. Just like millions of Christians compromise their faith to serve their worldly interests.

The quran condemns most muslims for their compromising just as the teachings of Jesus condemn most christians for their compromising. the difference is that the quran condemns them for being peaceful while the Bible condemns christians for waging war.

Jesus brought the teachings of peace and loving ones enemies. muhammad brought the teachings of bloody jihad and smiting the necks of the unbelievers.

Muhammad told the muslims if they clinged on to the world and refused to take part in jihad then allah would come and replace them with others who would. Jesus prophesised that many would come to him on the day of Judgement and call Him Lord Lord and He will tell them that he never knew them.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
*sigh* Ok, you give me the verses you have a problem with and Ill see whether your interpreation of those verses has any standing or not.
 
WEll your search is over. Go over and look at te Humanity First site. Thats run by my mosque. Now youve been proved wrong..

link please, there are many HF's, some linked to Ahmadiyya (an anti-Christian org)
 
Since this thread has turned into a "christian cult vs. muslim cult" thread, I see no reason to keep it open.

If anyone should have a convincing reason for it to be reopened, please PM me.
 
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