Is God willing but not able?

[Grantywanty]

Before you get banned, Photizo, is it meant to be ironic that you've subnamed yourself after Lucifer.

 

[Myles]

LOL...What irony. What illogical nonsense...anyway, We ponder...we just ponder different things. We know about certain aspects of existence only because of/according to what has been revealed to man through the Word of God. Yet despite God's revelation, Paul says Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. Certainly this promise provides lots for an individual to ponder...for instance, the degree of ones knowing "then"...i.e. I shall know just as I am known by God:

O Lord, You have searched me and known me. You know my sitting down and my rising up; You understand my thought afar off. You comprehend my path and my lying down, And are acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word on my tongue, But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether. You have hedged me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain it.


I know that He knows this about me, though I do not know what this entails precisely. I only have a general understanding of myself like Paul says "Now we see through a glass darkly"...Pondering God's knowledge of oneself, one derives comfort (unless of course you are standing 'naked' before Him) along with experiencing anticipation (very fertile ground for pondering) as to what it will be like exactly to know as I am known i.e. totally and completely--and not just with respect to myself but totally and completely with respect to all that is knowable. This only comes by pondering--pondering the Word of God.



You display the the very same rudimentary understanding as some of those you lament. The result of much pondering no doubt





Your closely reasoned argument leaves me in no doubt that I am right. How can you be sure that Paul wasn't seeing through the botom of a dirty beer glass ?

 

[ashura]

Ooh, my curiosity's aroused. Who deleted the post, Photizo or Skinwalker?

 

[Myles]

Most have no reason to ponder because none was given to them. In a culture where religion and the idea of god is so ingrained, I can't really say I blame them. The blame only comes when one refuses to at least think about the idea once it's brought up. Most theists I know aren't like that and some have even had their mind's changed



Most, knowingly or otherwise, subscribe to the view : " I do not think about things I choose not to think about "

INHERIT THE WIND

 

[ashura]

Most, knowingly or otherwise, subscribe to the view : " I do not think about things I choose not to think about "

INHERIT THE WIND

And you know this because you can look into the hearts and minds of most theists, right?

 

[Myles]

And you know this because you can look into the hearts and minds of most theists, right?

I believe it because at the age of 75, having been brought up a Catholic, having had discussions with Jesuits ( to whom I turned for spiritual guidance in my teens ) and numerous people who have rung my doorbell or accosted me in the street I have found that there are places they will not go.

I have never been offered what I would regard as a serious discussion. Whatever one says, they find a quotation in the Bible to support their position. I have asked why I should believe the Bible, a book which I regard as of doubtful provenance, I invariably get the response that it is God's revealed word; maybe not in so many words but that's what it comes down to in the end.

Then there is the " slight" problem of the various interpretations of the Bible. Look at the number of Christian denominations there are. each claiming to have insights which the others lack.

I am not only referring to Christians, although they seem to spend more time proseltyising than other theists. Muslims quote the Koran which they claim is God's word transmitted to Mohammed. Now you have a choice: Sunni, Shi'ite or Wahibi to name three sects I am familiar with.

Jews also come in various sects.

A generally accepted philosophical test of truth is whether there is convergence of thinking . You won't find it among theists.

 

[superluminal]

I have asked why I should believe the Bible, a book which I regard as of doubtful provenance, I invariably get the response that it is God's revealed word; maybe not in so many words but that's what it comes down to in the end.

Ha! Yes.

The old:

"Why should I believe the bible?"

"Because it's the word of god."

"And how do you know this?"

"The bible says so."

Arrrrrgggggggg!!!

Not one of them ever addresses the absurdly circular nature of this position. Not one. Ever.

 

[ashura]

Ha! Yes.

The old:

"Why should I believe the bible?"

"Because it's the word of god."

"And how do you know this?"

"The bible says so."

Arrrrrgggggggg!!!

Not one of them ever addresses the absurdly circular nature of this position. Not one. Ever.

Yes, but as frustrating as it may be, you can't stop there! We live in an entire culture raised on these beliefs, unrooting them isn't a matter of having one conversation.

Myles, I'm sorry the conversations you've had with theists in your life weren't as fruitful as mine, and I can only request that you reconsider your opinion of theists based on my personal experiences with a number of them. They're not all like that.

 

[Myles]

Ha! Yes.

The old:

"Why should I believe the bible?"

"Because it's the word of god."

"And how do you know this?"

"The bible says so."

Arrrrrgggggggg!!!

Not one of them ever addresses the absurdly circular nature of this position. Not one. Ever.

Hi superluminal,

They cannot do so because they have painted themselves into a philosophical corner but are too blind to see it. I have learned not to expect a reasoned argument from any of these people. They are time wasters as far as I am concerned.

 

[superluminal]

Hi superluminal,

They cannot do so because they have painted themselves into a philosophical corner but are too blind to see it. I have learned not to expect a reasoned argument from any of these people. They are time wasters as far as I am concerned.

I also can not pry any theist past this particular sticking point. It truly is a waste of time. It's understandable though. As you point out, they are in a philosophical bind, but one that defines a lifetime of self deception.

For a theist to admit that the bible (or whatever book they adhere to) is just a book with no demonstrable substance behind it would be, I imagine, a very difficult admission.

 

[superluminal]

Yes, but as frustrating as it may be, you can't stop there! We live in an entire culture raised on these beliefs, unrooting them isn't a matter of having one conversation.

Of course. Hence all of the discussion that goes on here...

 

[Myles]

For a theist to admit that the bible (or whatever book they adhere to) is just a book with no demonstrable substance behind it would be, I imagine, a very difficult admission.

It's impossible for them to do so and remain theists. At best ,they would become deists.

 

[lightgigantic]

I also can not pry any theist past this particular sticking point. It truly is a waste of time. It's understandable though. As you point out, they are in a philosophical bind, but one that defines a lifetime of self deception.

For a theist to admit that the bible (or whatever book they adhere to) is just a book with no demonstrable substance behind it would be, I imagine, a very difficult admission.

the only thing more difficult would be prising an atheist off their sticking point and take up the demonstrable practices of theism

 

[Myles]

the only thing more difficult would be prising an atheist off their sticking point and take up the demonstrable practices of theism

Demonstrable. like Bush and Co. witholding aid from those who do not share "their" Christian values ?

 

[Photizo]

...they are in a philosophical bind, but one that defines a lifetime of self deception.

No bind what...so...ever, we are freer than you could ever imagine! By exercising humility and self denial, one is enabled/'strengthened' by God to leave the self imposed prison/exile of the finite human mind (study Sartre's play "No Exit"). You have no idea. You (plural) are in the bind, not us. :bugeye: So, what you don't understand you must denigrate, concocting all manner of neatly packaged 'explanations' unfortunately though, these 'explanations' are all based upon your own finite abilities. It's actually quite pathetic really. You are the victim of/commit that which you accuse us of: circular reasoning... Sad...but, you insist on having things your way rather than accepting His. Being the gracious God He is, He grants this to you. The only catch is, if you have your cake, you must eat it too--and you will.

Even when it becomes unpalatable and your 'stomach' is full you will be required to keep eating:

Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices...So they did eat, and were well filled: for he gave them their own desire. Selah...

 

[Myles]

Talking of Sartre, didn't he say: " Hell is other people " ? I don't think he had atheists in mind

 

[superluminal]

Please be kind enough to lay out the parameters of my circular argument. Thank you.

...you insist on having things your way rather than accepting His. Being the gracious God He is, He grants this to you. The only catch is, if you have your cake, you must eat it too--and you will.

Ok.

How do you know this?

Are you capable, photizo, of clearly explaining why my assessment of theistic reliance on the bible (or other book) as the source and proof of the word of god as circular, is flawed?

Can you explain, without righteous indignation or scriptural references (i.e. like a normal human being), why I'm wrong about the completely circular nature of theists using their book as the word of god, and also as the evidence that it is the word of god?

Try to be clear.

 

[lightgigantic]

the only thing more difficult would be prising an atheist off their sticking point and take up the demonstrable practices of theism

Demonstrable. like Bush and Co. witholding aid from those who do not share "their" Christian values ?

so if you can't find a notable theist amongst the presidency of the USA you can't find one anywhere?

 

[Myles]

so if you can't find a notable theist amongst the presidency of the USA you can't find one anywhere?[/



I have come across lots of notable theists; notable for their blinkered attitude, self-righteous smugness and similatr qualities

 

[Myles]

Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices...So they did eat, and were well filled: for he gave them their own desire. Selah..

.

I'm not sure it's accurate to accuse you of circular reasoning. It's more appropiate, to say that you do not reason at all. Otherwise you would not rely so heavily on disparate books in disparate languages translated into other disparate languages and collected together as "ta biblia", the books ,which you call the Bible.

Are you aware of the Greek proverb; mega biblion ,mega kakon ? Big book , big trouble.

Your reference to eating summarises your attitude: Do what a book says a loving God wants you to do, or that same loving God will see to it that you will burn forever in Hell. In his infinite mercy, he will look down on you and say : "Well you can't say you weren't told ."