Is God a tyrant? (If he exists)

[hns64]

Hello, this is my first post in these forums and I just want to hear some peoples ideas on religion.

There was once a time I had no problem with it even though my mother had a moderately strong belief, I understood the problems with it and just considered it to be an excuse for minor sins and belief in something good to happen when we die. This all changed when the person I most respected began to believe in christianity. The more I looked into it, the more questions arose concerning God and though I have countless problems with Him I always returned to this original question.

If God is all-powerful and 'perfect', then why did he create us humans to be so insignificant in comparison to him.

This has never made the slightest bit of sense to me and has always destroyed any hope in taking religion seriously. Surely God, loving us as much as he does, would have made us equal to himself. It doesn't matter to me whether we may cause problems with this power as "I would rather live 1 day as a tiger than 100 years as a sheep" (or something similar). For a God to create us to be so weak and powerless he must have either been rather imperfect or power-hungry/partially evil.

Therefore I consider that if God were to exist, he would be a tyrant as I would consider the common definition of a tyrant is,

"An absolute ruler who governs without restrictions."

I'd like to hear your ideas on this subject as that as always been a problem in understanding the rationality of God in religion.

Thanks for your time,
Glen

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Hello, this is my first post in these forums and I just want to hear some peoples ideas on religion.

Welcome Glen to the Forum, I hope you will have good time here.

If God is all-powerful and 'perfect', then why did he create us humans to be so insignificant in comparison to him.

The answer is very simple, when you were born, were you born the same size as your dad ????

 

[everneo]

IF God's existance is presumed, then the answer to the question whether God is a tyrant or not could be explored further.

Pre-existance of soul(s)

First, all the major religions hint at the pre-existance of soul before born as human in earth.

By christian/Judaism belief (could be gnostic), as i understand, God imputes life to soul when its human life starts. It is said to inherit the orginal sin of Adam and put on trial only once on the earth.

In Quran, the verse 40:11, indicates the soul exist before earthly-birth.

"They will say, "Our Lord, you have put us to death twice, and You gave us two lives; now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out?" (40:11)
The mentioning of two deaths and two lives in 40:11 may cause some interpreters to somehow connect the Qur'anic teachings to the concept of multiple births, however on closer examination we realise that the opposite is true.

The truth of the matter is that this very verse serves as another solid proof against any such theory. 40:11 traces the progress of our course from the feud in the Heavenly Society (38:69) to the Day of Judgement. We made a covenant with God (5:7) and then we were put to death. That was our First death. The fact that we were all living in a previous life before being brought to earth is well confirmed in the Qur'an.

- http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_quran_reincarnation.htm

In Hinduism and Buddhism, soul/consiousness pre-exists birth.

Existance of soul after life

But unlike Hindu/Buddhist belief, the abrahamic religions does not belief in re-incarnation of soul. But common to all the above religion, the soul exists even after death. The fate of it is decided by God (or Karma as in Hindu/Buddhist belief).

Considering the eternity of pre & post earthly life, the life on earth is nothing but a flip in time. Nobody is clear on the terms of covenant God makes with the individual souls before earthly birth (or what is the Karma accumulated by the soul, as in Hinduism/Buddhism). A chance is given on the earth. The results / judgement depend on the activities, environment & field of action with due weightages. This sounds gnostic, and probably explain the apparent tyranny of God.

If none of the above makes sense, better be an atheist rejecting the tyranical God. Please also remember i personally have my own skepticism on the above believes though not as strong as of an athiest / agnostic.

 

[hns64]

Thanks for the quick replies.

I'm not the most intelligent person in existence so please bear with me...
(I hope the quotations work as I think they do too).

The answer is very simple, when you were born, were you born the same size as your dad ????

No, of course, I was not, but I do not understand how that changes anything. When considering God I look at the world from his eyes. As I understand it the world is a trial for us humans to either pass or fail. From my perspective this test is very far from perfect and I cannot believe it is an equal one for everyone (some people live their life in riches with little to worry about while others live with illness and few worldly possessions). God created this test, that is why I was not the same size as my father when I was born and that is exactly my point. God lacks the intent of equality between himself and his various creations and I consider that to be unacceptable.

Also in response to everneo:

I do understand what you are explaining and have come across these ideas before. My response is similar to what I've said to Proud Muslim. I never see any mention of God intending equality between himself and his creations to exist. There are always mentions of a soul, and the earth being a testing place for our devotion to something, but that is still all we are - a soul. Even if our time here wasn't worth considering when our souls last for eternity we never have power. The closest comparison that I can make to this would be a oppressive regime where the people have no say how people are treated or what people have to believe.

By the way how do you mean,

IF God's existance is presumed, then the answer to the question whether God is a tyrant or not could be explored further.

Surely Saddam Hussein, his existance being presumed, was thought of by most as a tyrant as reports of mass murder and crimes against humanity were explored further? (Sorry if I haven't realised what you mean as it usually takes a little more explanation when I'm involved)

For me a similar case could be brought against a Christian God for atrocities committed in Sodom and Gomorrah for various reasons including wide-spread homosexuality.

 

[MShark]

The question seems to be what do you mean by power? If you mean powerful like a computer or powerful like a rocket or even powerful like a super nova, I would sugest that these things are not powerful at all. They have no will they just react to their environment with deterministic. People on the other hand were given the real power of being able to do as they choose (free will). What power are you lacking?

 

[hns64]

The question seems to be what do you mean by power?

Take the idea of a 'perfect' God for instance. He has the power to change things - he supposedly created everyone and everything. I understand what you mean by free will and I agree this is important but what good has that done us? We can think, we can choose what we are going to do with our limited control of the world around us. But with what we have been given our possible course of action in any situation pales to insignificance in comparison to our creator and if we make one wrong turn we're sent to the fires of hell for all eternity (Christian related). We were created in his image (according to Christianity), and thats all we've got.. an image of something far more capable than we could ever be. And I'm not only talking about our life on this planet - I'm talking about how our soul seems to have little ability to change things throughout eternity while God's reign remains absolute.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Greco]

An additional question arises; how much knowledge did Adam have to make a wise decision. The test if I recall was to abstain from the fruit of good and evil but if Adam dint have any knowledge of good and evil how could he judge his actions if they were evil or not. Seems to me that Adam was ill prepared for any test without preparation. Where was the good angels to tutor him?

Adam dint have a fighting chance, it was a frame up.

 

[MShark]

According to the teachings of Jesus, God will forgive us for anything. Even after your millionth wrong move there God is waiting for you. And if it is power you want I am sure that God will give you an abundance of power throughout this life and into the next.

On the other hand if there is no God and no free will than you are right we are absolutly powerless. But the good thing is that no body else has more power than you.

I think that many people would choose the second option if given a choice.

 

[hns64]

Another good point Greco - thanks for that.

The list of questionable and clearly imperfect actions which I have noticed God commiting (what I would call sins personally) is as long as half the bible itself, but always my questions are all relate to this initial one which I have no answer for.

I'm not saying that I'm right because I don't consider myself to have the supreme condescending ability to somehow know which faith (or lack thereof) professes the truth. And I can never understand how others think they can either.

 

[hns64]

It's the same again though MShark. God is at the top of the chain and it is he whose forgiveness is the most important due to his power as creator of the universe. He giveth and he taketh awayeth - see my point. If there were elections involved (I don't know how that'd work) then he'd have been impeached from day one.

Also my brother and some friends who are also Christian have the belief that going to Heaven relies on the fact that you have a belief in God. I personally see God (if he does exist) to be accountable for his actions with the Bible as his confession and would rather suffer eternal torment with Ghandi and the rest of the Anti-Christs than sell my soul to the devil up above.

Thanks again.

 

[MShark]

hns64:

While I understand the desire for equality with God it seems a little mind boggeling that I should say to the being that created the universe. "Look here God with my infinite wisdom and knoweledge I have determined that you messed up - further more this life everlasting that you promised well I do not want it unless You make me your partner."

To be honest I had thoughts like that many years ago. The older I have gotten the more I realize how unwise and unknoledgable I am and the more greatful I am for the gifts of life and free will. I am very much looking forward to spending eternity with the God who created me and this magnificent universe.

 

[MShark]

hns64

If your brother is a Christian he should know that he is not the one who gets to say who is going to heaven and who is going to hell.

I personally trust God and I believe that she loves each and everyone of us and she will do whatever she can (without removing our free will) to get us to choose to be with her in this life and in the next. If you choose that you do not want to be with God I think that she will allow that.

Is this not a great and beautiful world? Don't you think that whoever created this world must have been good.

 

[hns64]

*grins* Good point MShark.

This argument has come up more than once with my religious friends and me who can't seem to settle on anything.

I know I'm far from the smartest person you'll find and that does cause problems when I say how a perfect being 'screwed up'. And I am greatful to whoever or whatever was involved in the creation of intelligent humans with a sense of right and wrong. I am not saying that what we have is terrible and I've suffered sooo much because to be truthful I haven't. I look at my friends and their own hardships and I think to myself... "holy moly mackoroly". Though this is true, I can't find many reasons to consider this universe to be the creation of anything more than a human like mind with faults and flaws as we all have and I can't find any people who put their faith in major religions who wouldn't describe God as a great flawless entity.

I'm not a particularly depressed person as I gain my strengths from those I love and admire. I try to realise my faults and strive to make myself a better person too (though I fail quite often). And the more I try to be the best person I can be I find more and more problems with the idea of a Christian God (I do not have enough knowledge about most others to state many points on them). I try to understand it from the point of a religious person and I just can't fit the pieces together as to why someone would choose to be. I guess my problem is that whenever I put myself in that position I see all the people in hell and those who are going to hell. My good friends and even my father who I respect more than most. I ponder on why I deserve to go to an eternal paradise while people I love and people who've actions have been for the greater good of those around them would go to hell and I can't find many reasons at all. For me it would be selfish to enjoy the luxuries of heaven while others faced eternal damnation for belief in something better than what some consider an angry and vengeful God.

For me religion stops being a personal choice when you decide the eternal fate of those around you.

Damn this is almost fun . Thanks for your views

 

[JustARide]

Your initial question is one that has prevented me from taking Christianity seriously as well. I remember, early on, asking my grandparents, "Is a democracy the best kind of government?" and they said, "Yes." Then I asked why God did not rule in that fashion. As I recall, they were stumped for a moment, and then they proceeded to trot out the official line: "Well, we just trust that God knows best."

That never satisfied me. As far as I was concerned, God had the ruling philosophy of Hitler or Stalin (i.e., take immediate and severe action against anyone who disagrees or poses a threat). I had never thought of the system in terms of equality, but I suppose that, indeed, is a prerequisite to fair government. The moment our president becomes untouchable (this may have already happened), the people are irrelevent.

Why have theocracies always failed miserably? Because, like God, the leaders did not recognize dissent. I remember reading the Bible once and being struck by the revelation that I had more respect (not love, but respect) for Satan, who at least had the guts to voice opposition to a dictator-like God.

I think what you're talking about is hegemony. If God will always have the final say, then we are ultimately powerless. As Bill Hicks used to say in his act:

"Eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions God's infinite love. That's the message we're given. Thank you for giving, Lord - for all those options!"​

To use Proud Muslim's example: Was I as big as my dad when I was born? No, but I am now. That's the difference.

As far as Heaven and Hell go, I think they are, by definition, "extremist" beliefs. After all, they are extreme concepts - eternal bliss or eternal suffering. It's not exactly a "make the punishment fit the crime" kind of system, is it?

Josh

 

[hns64]

Thanks Josh, it's good to know someone has reached a similar conclusion.

Good quote too, I'll have to remember that one for later.

 

[everneo]

I remember reading the Bible once and being struck by the revelation that I had more respect (not love, but respect) for Satan, who at least had the guts to voice opposition to a dictator-like God.

Satan had the guts but not common-sense. For obviously his own sense of significance and power and his guts were based on his failure to recognize, as matter of fact, to what extent his creator is powerful and why God would not duplicate Himself to an equal in all aspect.

This criticism of God is like subjecting your papers for peer review & when rejected for silliness blame them for their arrogance of not conforming to your ideas.

 

[hns64]

I have to say that I disagree with you everneo.

My criticism of a Christian God is similar to a criticism of Hitler or Stalin as JustARide previously mentioned. It is not silly to expect a loving God to create, if he was going to create a being, something equal in ability to himself. I am just saying that the intent of making people equal is a prerequisite of moral perfection and therefore if God were to exist then he couldn't be perfect.

It is criticism of an oppressive regime ruled by a tyrant. Which is what is helping people become more and more free in society around the world.

 

[Ellimist]

Yes.

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

 

[everneo]

I have to say that I disagree with you everneo.

You are welcome. I am not Hitler or Stalin.

It is not silly to expect a loving God to create, if he was going to create a being, something equal in ability to himself.

Then its not creation. It would be multiplication. I will come to this point later. And you got it reverse - if he is going to create equals then his 'loving' adjective is irrelevant. Love has any meaning if only his creations are not his clones.

I am just saying that the intent of making people equal is a prerequisite of moral perfection and therefore if God were to exist then he couldn't be perfect.

God by definition should not have any restriction as to what he should create or not. Can you say a good architect should not build a little and lesser godown to store the building materials for the building he is going to build. Perhaps your question would be similar to ask why God did this or what is his agenda. The question of 'Why' has an abstract answer in eastern religions and with some sufi schools of thought (illusion or veil that hides the unity with God/Superconsciousness). Christian theologists / scholars, i am sure, would have pondered this question. But they would not come out, afraid of being called heretics.

It is criticism of an oppressive regime ruled by a tyrant. Which is what is helping people become more and more free in society around the world.

I personally feel God would look like a clown if he gives freedom unrestricted.

 

[hns64]

Surely it is better to look like a clown than act like Hitler .

I think that God would not be multiplying himself. I have only meant abilities (sorry if I made it seem like something else) and as free will would still be allowed then his creations wouldn't be mindless clones.

I do not believe that God should just be allowed to do whatever he chooses as in the past this has led to some quite poor decisions. He has a responsibility in creating us and I believe that he has abused this. The closest example I can think of is scientists creating a test tube baby with only one limb - God has restricted us by much more in comparison though. I don't see how we can just draw the line for God just because he's some sort of special case.

There are two quotes which I believe are relevant in this situation - sorry that I do not remember the creators.

"Kill one man and you are a murderer. Kill many men and you are a conqueror. Kill all men and you are a God."

and

"Why should I follow the rules of God for raising my childen when he's killed millions of his own."