Is Everything Predetermined?
- Thread starter Reiku
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but come on now, seriously?
if you believe everything is predetermined then it is, and if you believe you have free will then you have free will, because the reality where everything comes from (nothing) is not asleep and it is not awake... there is no free will and there is no predetermination, so anything can be...
if you believe everything is predetermined then it is, and if you believe you have free will then you have free will, because the reality where everything comes from (nothing) is not asleep and it is not awake... there is no free will and there is no predetermination, so anything can be...
''if you believe everything is predetermined then it is, and if you believe you have free will then you have free will, because the reality where everything comes from (nothing) is not asleep and it is not awake... there is no free will and there is no predetermination, so anything can be...''
Let me show you that everything is predetermined from a relativistic point of veiw, that is, if you won't take the quantum view seriously.
Now, what allows us to beleive we have this so-called free-will eh? The fact we have moved from a past, and the future to us is now unknowable? Is this unpredictability the key to us beleiving we have power over what we do...? If it is... consider the following.
In relativity, we learn that the past, present and future are in fact all present states depending on the observer. In other words, the past is happening right now. And so is the future.* If this is all true, then what is past and what is future is relative to the observer in a set time (present time). Strangely enough, this suggests that the past is a present time, as is the future, and if all of it is happening right now, where is the control of the psyche now? Where is free will, because our fates don't seem to be bound to this present time alone.
*this is why in physics, we say when big bang occurred, so did a big crunch.
Let me show you that everything is predetermined from a relativistic point of veiw, that is, if you won't take the quantum view seriously.
Now, what allows us to beleive we have this so-called free-will eh? The fact we have moved from a past, and the future to us is now unknowable? Is this unpredictability the key to us beleiving we have power over what we do...? If it is... consider the following.
In relativity, we learn that the past, present and future are in fact all present states depending on the observer. In other words, the past is happening right now. And so is the future.* If this is all true, then what is past and what is future is relative to the observer in a set time (present time). Strangely enough, this suggests that the past is a present time, as is the future, and if all of it is happening right now, where is the control of the psyche now? Where is free will, because our fates don't seem to be bound to this present time alone.
*this is why in physics, we say when big bang occurred, so did a big crunch.
That will never happen (nor the converse) but I found that few posters here even understand the nature of the problem, which makes it an interesting subject at least last 2000 years.
To see the problem, see:
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1553040&postcount=36
I just read your excerpt Billy, and again, it is highlighting the diverse problamatics which are invariantly due to our lack of the understanding of physics (or at least some people).
From my experience, quantum mechanics actually has (as you briefly mentioned), the problem of uncertainty. Whilst many people find it an intrinsic property of matter (which it is), but i feel it might be very misnderstood. I was speaking to Dr. Wolf the other day, and we agreed that quantum uncertainty is definately misunderstood, not that the technical side of it is misunderstood, but rather that we apply it the wrong discription: Afterall is it not this uncertainty which brings rise to the certainty in life > in macroscopic entities? I've decided to answer this by saying that consciousness and understanding, even though they might consist of tiny averages, are actually a by-product of one system that is macroscopic in nature. Perhaps, if we where tiny atoms, the macroscopic world would seem very uncertain to us, just as we complex-thinking machines find their world very confusing. It is a lack of knowledge, me thinks.
Reiku
From my experience, quantum mechanics actually has (as you briefly mentioned), the problem of uncertainty. Whilst many people find it an intrinsic property of matter (which it is), but i feel it might be very misnderstood. I was speaking to Dr. Wolf the other day, and we agreed that quantum uncertainty is definately misunderstood, not that the technical side of it is misunderstood, but rather that we apply it the wrong discription: Afterall is it not this uncertainty which brings rise to the certainty in life > in macroscopic entities? I've decided to answer this by saying that consciousness and understanding, even though they might consist of tiny averages, are actually a by-product of one system that is macroscopic in nature. Perhaps, if we where tiny atoms, the macroscopic world would seem very uncertain to us, just as we complex-thinking machines find their world very confusing. It is a lack of knowledge, me thinks.
Reiku
Agreed.
Not in the least. I've just been quietly hanging back and watching some truth and a lot of nonsense go by.
Beyond a few genetic traits (hair, eye color, etc.) - and there's NO such thing as memory being encoded genetically! - and the fiscal state of your family (meaning they may be wealthy or not) absolutely EVERYTHING beyond that is a matter of chance and/or choice.
The lack of free-will stance is nothing more than one adopted by some individuals as an excuse for their actions or inactions. They try to ignore their responsibility by saying it was predetermined and they couldn't do anything about it. Poor, stupid people they are!!
''and there's NO such thing as memory being encoded genetically!''
Well, it is the contending theory right now... but if you don't like this idea, consider the alternative provided by quantum phsyics - the vacuum itself contains and stores memory.
''absolutely EVERYTHING beyond that is a matter of chance and/or choice.''
Illusory?
''The lack of free-will stance is nothing more than one adopted by some individuals as an excuse for their actions or inactions. They try to ignore their responsibility by saying it was predetermined and they couldn't do anything about it. Poor, stupid people they are!!''
Fair enough... its brings about profound implications. But if the entire human race have this vail over them, then what does it really matter? :shrug:
Reiku :m:
Well, it is the contending theory right now... but if you don't like this idea, consider the alternative provided by quantum phsyics - the vacuum itself contains and stores memory.
''absolutely EVERYTHING beyond that is a matter of chance and/or choice.''
Illusory?
''The lack of free-will stance is nothing more than one adopted by some individuals as an excuse for their actions or inactions. They try to ignore their responsibility by saying it was predetermined and they couldn't do anything about it. Poor, stupid people they are!!''
Fair enough... its brings about profound implications. But if the entire human race have this vail over them, then what does it really matter? :shrug:
Reiku :m:
Sorry - I cannot acceot either one without proof. Theories are one thing, proof is quite something else.
Very sorry but I do not understand the usage of the word "vail" in this context.
If so, I'd like to see proof of it, please.
Perhaps you mean "veil" - a covering? But it's no illusion at all that I freely picked and chose which shirt to wear this morning out of the several possibilites available to me. Illusions exist only in the mind, physical things are quite real. Illusions cannot harm you, and striking your finger with a hammer is NO illusion!
Here's the video to Free Will by Rush.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYzGMxGq9rM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYzGMxGq9rM
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''Consciousness involves hyperdimensionality. For example, the emotional condition of the operators of a symplectic E/M transmission facility will directly alter the radiation pattern off the antenna, based on their mood! The symplectic may be viewed as the even numbered quaternions. The quaternions have four axes, not three. (Hyperspatial) Three of the axes of are the imaginary numbers. (Again, hyperspatial.)
Recall that the vacuum has a memory. The information is retained by the Hamiltonian of an N-dimensional subquantum system of loosely coupled (anharmonic) oscillators, known as the FPU lattice. (A similar description is incorporated into my view of quantum physics.)
K. Pribram proved that the memory of a human being is not contiguous with the human brain, nor is the memory even necessarily residing near the location of the physical form. Pribram determined that Consciousness is best modeled as a hologram and can be modeled in the quaternions, e.g., a quaternionic hologram.
These are two small examples of the physics of Consciousness which are not available to the mainstream culture. At this point, studies of Consciousness are getting more complicated rather than less.
Ultimately, it will all boil down to what will appear to be a relatively innocuous set of equations. But right now, it's a bear!
Oh, and Vic, you should have a look at Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR) and at the "Mindsong" (TM), a device which makes your computer telepathic.''
By Robert Neil Boyd Ph.D
''Consciousness involves hyperdimensionality. For example, the emotional condition of the operators of a symplectic E/M transmission facility will directly alter the radiation pattern off the antenna, based on their mood! The symplectic may be viewed as the even numbered quaternions. The quaternions have four axes, not three. (Hyperspatial) Three of the axes of are the imaginary numbers. (Again, hyperspatial.)
Recall that the vacuum has a memory. The information is retained by the Hamiltonian of an N-dimensional subquantum system of loosely coupled (anharmonic) oscillators, known as the FPU lattice. (A similar description is incorporated into my view of quantum physics.)
K. Pribram proved that the memory of a human being is not contiguous with the human brain, nor is the memory even necessarily residing near the location of the physical form. Pribram determined that Consciousness is best modeled as a hologram and can be modeled in the quaternions, e.g., a quaternionic hologram.
These are two small examples of the physics of Consciousness which are not available to the mainstream culture. At this point, studies of Consciousness are getting more complicated rather than less.
Ultimately, it will all boil down to what will appear to be a relatively innocuous set of equations. But right now, it's a bear!
Oh, and Vic, you should have a look at Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR) and at the "Mindsong" (TM), a device which makes your computer telepathic.''
By Robert Neil Boyd Ph.D
Sorry, I cannot accept any of that. I see only statements and ideas and NO proof whatsoever. So it amounts to nothing.
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