Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[Write4U]

....[cue circus music and clowns].......

The only game in town.

I just don't know why you refuse to accept the greatest insight into nature that man has made. The cognition and codification of the mathematical essence of Universal values and functions.

All natural laws are identified by their mathematical value, functions and patterns. We even assign abstract patterns to natural phenomena,
such as the Platonic solids. Are they mystical mathematical patterns? Are the (table of) elements mystical mathematical runes?

As time went on, the Pythagoreans made even more exciting discoveries-and gave them strange cosmic meanings.

This curious blend was characteristic of Pythagorean geometry. For the initiates of the Brotherhood were seeking a special key to the universe in this wonderful new realm of numbers and abstract forms: triangles, circles, squares, spheres, and the more elaborate forms they made themselves.

And their search had a thrilling climax. After long and painstaing experiments, they discovered the five regular solids. These were remarkable and beautiful polyhedrs, or shapes with many faces.

The full tale of these five solids can only be guessed at from bits of legend and history, for all the experiments were top secrets, of course.

https://themathlab.com/wonders/godsdice/dicepatn.htm

At that time all universal phenomena were considered mystical, as was a thunder storm (Thor).
Today we know these are not mystical objects, but real properties and emergent mathematical chronologies of spacetime "geometry" and "physics".
Is Geometry mystical? Is E = Mc^2 mystical.....
What precisely, in the concept of mathematics, is mystical?

Maps are not fashioned in a vacuum but are symbolic representations of the territory.
Are you saying that maps are not representative of the territory, but representations of mystical beliefs?

I understand that physical actions are based on physics, but that also means the physical values are mathematical in essence and guide the physical interactions.

Does consciousness precede physics (mysticism) or does physics precede consciousness (physicalism) ?

 

[DaveC426913]

And what constitutes a "state"?

The ball is above the ground. That's the state.

We can certainly assign values to it. But they're arbitrary.

Note that all definitions are mathematical in essence.

No, not in essence.

In application, by an interpreter.

 

[DaveC426913]

Maps are not fashioned in a vacuum but are symbolic representations of the territory.

Precisely. Now you're getting it.

 

[Write4U]

Precisely. Now you're getting it.

Therefore.......maps are mystical?

 

[DaveC426913]

Therefore.......maps are mystical?

Nope. I'm simply addressing your (correct) acknowledgement that maps (along with other representations such as functions and values) are symbolic representations) of nature.

 

[Write4U]

The ball is above the ground. That's the state.

That was the state before it hit the ground and a new state was created.

We can certainly assign values to it. But they're arbitrary.

I know that. The question is if that makes them mystical in essence or are the natural values they represent mystical in essence?

No, not in essence.

Natural Laws are physical objects?

In application, by an interpreter.

An interpreter is essential in the translation of universal values and functions? Does that make him a mystic or a physicist/mathematician?[/QUOTE]

 

[DaveC426913]

... accept the greatest insight into nature that man has made.

We accept it. We're waiting for you to accept it.

And it looks like you finally have.

Mathematical functions and values are an insight into nature - made by man.

Well done everybody. Go home, have a beer and toast Write4U.

 

[Write4U]

Nope. I'm simply addressing your (correct) acknowledgement that maps (along with other representations such as functions and values) are symbolic representations) of nature.

I never claimed that maps are the territory. A drawing on a piece of paper IS the territory? yes, perhaps for a dust mite.

 

[DaveC426913]

I never claimed that maps are the territory. A drawing on a piece of paper IS the territory? yes, perhaps for a dust mite.

Writing functions and values IS nature?
No.

 

[Write4U]

We accept it. We're waiting for you to accept it.

And it looks like you finally have.

Mathematical functions and values are an insight into nature - made by man.

IMO, they are a cognition of how the universe functions.
You are claiming that man created the universe, rather than the other way around..

Did consciousness create the universe or did the universe create consciousness?

 

[DaveC426913]

IMO, they are a cognition of how the universe functions.

Yes. So, in your own words you acknowledge that functions and values are insight (cognition) made by man.

 

[Write4U]

Writing functions and values IS nature?
No.

Of course not, and I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth.
I said that the Nature of the Universe consist of values and functions which interact in a regular manner which we have named "mathematical".

To start with, Mathematics does not have a clearly defined, universally accepted definition. However it is safe to say that anything that studies the interaction between quantities, variables, structure, and change, is mathematics. Mathematics is not a tangible thing, but actually an abstract concept.

https://futurism.com/why-math-is-the-language-of-the-universe-2

 

[Write4U]

Yes. So, in your own words you acknowledge that functions and values are insight (cognition) made by man.

Yes, man's cognition of existing properties and functions of the universe. You cannot recognize something unless it can be observed. We can observe the mathematical functions of natural phenomena. They are not "random in essence" but "mathematical in essence". That's why we can codify them......

 

[Write4U]

p.s.

Everything we think we know about the shape of the universe could be wrong. Instead of being flat like a bedsheet, our universe may be curved, like a massive, inflated balloon, according to a new study.....

https://www.livescience.com/universe-may-be-curved.html?utm_source=notification

Do I detect a spiral? Chaos? Mystical or Mathematical?

Physics are guided by mathematical permissions and restrictions. No mystery or magic.

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes, man's cognition of existing properties and functions of the universe. You cannot recognize something unless it can be observed. We can observe the mathematical functions of natural phenomena. They are not "random in essence" but "mathematical in essence". That's why we can codify them......

Your actual words were "made by man".

And we agree.

 

[Write4U]

Yes. So, in your own words you acknowledge that functions and values are insight (cognition) made by man.

No, that's incorrect. Cognition or insight requires pre-existent observable objects or functions, patterns or territories.

But in the beginning all those properties were assigned mystical origins, like gods and heavenly abodes, constellations and astrological states.

Astrology is a pseudoscience that claims to divine information about human affairs and terrestrial events by studying the movements and relative positions of celestial objects.[1][2][3][4] Astrology has been dated to at least the 2nd millennium BCE, and has its roots in calendrical systems used to predict seasonal shifts and to interpret celestial cycles as signs of divine communications.[5]

Many cultures have attached importance to astronomical events, and some—such as the Hindus, Chinese, and the Maya—developed elaborate systems for predicting terrestrial events from celestial observations. Western astrology, one of the oldest astrological systems still in use, can trace its roots to 19th–17th century BCE Mesopotamia, from which it spread to Ancient Greece, Rome, the Arab world and eventually Central and Western Europe.

Even here in the world of the mystical, pseudo-scientific mathematics reign supreme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology

That was of course because mathematical functions, due to their codifiable regularities, can easily be misinterpreted as motivated actions, such as divine creation.

John 14:2, “In My Father’s house are many abodes”

Now that's mystical thinking....

 

[Write4U]

Your actual words were "made by man".

And we agree.

We never disagreed........
Human mathematics are a product of human cognition and symbolization of universal mathematical values and functions of physical objects.

Therefore we can functionally apply the term Mathematical as an essential property of the Universe. It is a term understood by all and generalized as properties of all Universal physical objects, their functional interactions, and self-forming patterns.

The Universe is essentially mathematical as well as physical. Humans discovered those pre-existing facts. Our greatest "discovery".

 

[C C]

Determinism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

Question: what is it that does the determining? In the absence of a motivated intelligence, it has to be a mathematical function based on the values of the prior causal state, no?

"What is determining..." seems ultimately traceable to one or two philosophy of time views (but informally held by the average person). As opposed to the rival one that doesn't need that as a verb and the seeking of an _X_ which is engaging in the action.

As far as the way differences are represented in consciousness (i.e., changes in time): I'm all on board with the everyday pragmatism of referring to action, motion, dynamics, etc as if such are objectively real. Objects even possess the qualitative meaning of color/colour in the external environment representation that the brain produces, so even the various modes of qualia are "real" in that everyday life respect (most of us perceive those properties, so they are public in an inter-subjective sense).

But in the context of scientific realism and entertaining the general view that there is a literal mind-independent world (i.e., not the pretender in our experiences)... In that domain I am not a believer in presentism and possibilism. Presentism pertaining to the common view that the "world is happening" rather than the "world just is" -- that existence is ephemeral, that the universe is a step-by-step procedure instead of an enduring and whole being of those different states co-existing with each other.

So it doesn't even have to enter the picture for me... This issue of some Platonic-like level of "generative principles" that is regulating the changes (maintaining coherence throughout the endless sequence of alterations) or determining what state the next instant of the world is in after it replaces slash annihilates a current one. Rival eternalism doesn't need that extra metaphysical baggage. Aside from the specious notion that there is a quantifiable global "now", even the alternative of there being a "flow" from one co-existing moment (or difference) to next in a framework of time it is just that -- the "flow" is a characteristic of psychological experience. Our experiences are taken to contain a representation of beinghood, they're not expressing the esteemed mind-independent version of the world.

Something like solipsism or polipsism (many interpenetrating minds in contrast to a single one) might entail presentism and an _X_ determining its ephemeral events, due to a metaphysical self indeed governing a dream process (they lack the mind-independent world archetype altogether). But they're not tenable in non-pejorative scientism (naturalism, physicalism, atheism, excessive methodology worship, etc grouped together as an umbrella school of thought).[*] Which is another context that I'm contingently evaluating from here.

- -- footnote - - -

[*] Alex Rosenberg, The Atheist's Guide To Reality

 

[Write4U]

Nope. I'm simply addressing your (correct) acknowledgement that maps (along with other representations such as functions and values) are symbolic representations) of nature.

We never did disagree on that. I just made a logical deduction that means nature possesses and processes natural values and functions and patterns which are quantifiable and qualifiable by humans.

Actually, birds discovered aerodynamics and magnetic fields long before man was even born. They just don't have need for symbolic representation. They act in accordance with the physical necessities to navigate the skies.

The appendages what humans call "wings" were used by birds long before the words "wings" or 'aerodynamics" were invented by humans. Birds taught us these specific natural values and functions inherent in using air for flight.

 

[Write4U]

Our experiences are taken to contain a representation of beinghood, they're not expressing the esteemed mind-independent version of the world.

As Anil Seth observes,
Your brain hallucinates your conscious reality | Anil Seth
Which of course represent the human experience of reality.

But as Philip K. Dick put it, "reality is that which, if you stop believing in it, does not go away. Things we just make up yield to our wishes and desires, but reality is stubborn".
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21528840-500-reality-the-definition/

IMO, no matter how we or any other biological organisms subjectively experience reality, reality itself has an independent physical existence which persists even without any "conscious" observers.