Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

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Watch the Hameroff video! He is the anesthesiologist. It's amatter of toxicity.
Interestingly, all living organisms respond in exactly the same way to the same dosage of anesthetics. The commonality lies in their microtubules.
They don't. Read some pharmaceutical kinetics of anesthetics. And it doesn't lie in the microtubules.

All Eukatyotic organisms large and small have microtubules. Most of them are not conscious. They may be "sensitive"! Should a microtuble in your toe control your consciousness or just be able to send messages and heal the damaged cell?
Don't judge from the result.
Theoretically, i don't see why some extra cognitive boost from some "magic" microtubules in our toes would harm anyone.

What is the structural difference that makes microtubules in the toe to be just a simple structural "bricks" and microtubules in the brain to be tiny sophisticated computers?

That is what makes brain microtubules good candidates for emergent consciousness. Please do some reading. I took the time to gather the info. Don't make me take the time to explain the info.
If you can't describe it with a few simple words, means that you yourself haven't understood it well.
 
They don't. Read some pharmaceutical kinetics of anesthetics. And it doesn't lie in the microtubules.
Watch the video.Unless you know better that an esteemed anesthesiologist
Don't judge from the result.
Theoretically, i don't see why some extra cognitive boost from some "magic" microtubules in our toes would harm anyone.
Unless your brains are in your toes, I'd say it does make a difference. But when you stub your toe, do you feel pain? That sensory event is transmitted by microtubules to your brain.
What is the structural difference that makes microtubules in the toe to be just a simple structural "bricks" and microtubules in the brain to be tiny sophisticated computers?
Microtubules are never just simple bricks. They are dynamic in growth and contraction.
Every cell in your body is copied by microtubules every 24 hrs, for your entire life.
If you can't describe it with a few simple words, means that you yourself haven't understood it well.
That is ridiculous. The list of microtubule functions alone takes about an entire page.
There are sub-groups of microtubules, each with completely different functions from other sub-groups.
Functions of Microtubules
Functions,
When it comes to mitosis, this process is facilitated by a subgroup of microtubules known as astral microtubules, which are microtubules originating from the centrosome that do not connect to a kinetochore. Astral microtubules develop in the actin skeleton and interact with the cell cortex to aid in orientation of spindles during cell division. They are organized around the centrosomes into radial arrays. Astral microtubules function in tandem with specialized dynein motors, which are oriented with the light chain portion attached to the cell membrane and the dynamic portion which is attached to the microtubule. This allows for dynein contraction to pull the centrosome towards the cell membrane, thus assisting in cytokinesis in plants and animals.
And much, much more.

https://biologywise.com/microtubules-function

It is clear you do not quite understand the range and scope of utility of microtubules.
Make note of the numbers. There are billions of dynamical microtubules in your body.
Example;
552e6a729351c.jpg


https://phys.org/news/2015-04-quantum-criticality-life-proteins.html

Anesthetics act in quantum channels in brain microtubules to prevent consciousness.
Craddock TJ, Hameroff SR, Ayoub AT, Klobukowski M, Tuszynski JA1.
Abstract
The mechanism by which anesthetic gases selectively prevent consciousness and memory (sparing non-conscious brain functions) remains unknown.
At the turn of the 20(th) century Meyer and Overton showed that potency of structurally dissimilar anesthetic gas molecules correlated precisely over many orders of magnitude with one factor, solubility in a non-polar, 'hydrophobic' medium akin to olive oil. In the 1980s Franks and Lieb showed anesthetics acted in such a medium within proteins, suggesting post-synaptic membrane receptors. But anesthetic studies on such proteins yielded only confusing results.
In recent years Eckenhoff and colleagues have found anesthetic action in microtubules, cytoskeletal polymers of the protein tubulin inside brain neurons. 'Quantum mobility' in microtubules has been proposed to mediate consciousness.
Through molecular modeling we have previously shown: (1) olive oil-like non-polar, hydrophobic quantum mobility pathways ('quantum channels') of tryptophan rings in tubulin, (2) binding of anesthetic gas molecules in these channels, and (3) capabilities for π-electron resonant energy transfer, or exciton hopping, among tryptophan aromatic rings in quantum channels, similar to photosynthesis protein quantum coherence. Here, we show anesthetic molecules can impair π-resonance energy transfer and exciton hopping in tubulin quantum channels, and thus account for selective action of anesthetics on consciousness and memory.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25714379
 
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I thought urea was a waste product?
You think it's a waste product. That doesn't mean that consciousness isn't found there. After all, every single living thing that exhibits consciousness generates urea. When they stop generating urea, they lose consciousness (and then die.) They are far more essential to consciousness than microtubules. You can be conscious without working microtubules; you can't be conscious if you are not generating urea.
 
Watch the video.Unless you know better that an esteemed anesthesiologist
Talk to any veterinarian. Ask him if all living organisms respond in exactly the same way to anesthesia, and if they use the same anesthesia for an ostrich as they use for a cat.
 
You think it's a waste product. That doesn't mean that consciousness isn't found there. After all, every single living thing that exhibits consciousness generates urea. When they stop generating urea, they lose consciousness (and then die.) They are far more essential to consciousness than microtubules. You can be conscious without working microtubules; you can't be conscious if you are not generating urea.
Does urea perform mitosis? Enough said.
Talk to any veterinarian. Ask him if all living organisms respond in exactly the same way to anesthesia, and if they use the same anesthesia for an ostrich as they use for a cat.
Why don't you ask Hameroff. He did the study.
My guess is that all brain microtubules in all animals respond the same because they all use the same 2 tubulin polymers.
 
globali said,
If you can't describe it with a few simple words, means that you yourself haven't understood it well.

ONE WORD: Mitosis. (think about the implication)
 
Are microtubules required for life? Enough said.
What would happen if a cell did not have any microtubules?
In addition to acting as the cell's framework, microtubules are responsible for splitting chromosomes, etc., as well as the cell itself during cell division, both in mitosis and meiosis.
Any other candidates for splitting and copying chromosomes?
The extracellular matrix also contribute to the support structure of the cell.
extracellular matrix
Non-living material secreted by cells that fills spaces between the cells in a tissue, protecting them and helping to hold them together. The extracellular matrix may be semi fluid or rigidly solid and hard as in bone. It is composed mainly of protein and includes collagens, lastin, reticulin, lycoproteins, proteoglycans, fibronectin, laminins and osteopontin.
Consider the required chronology from micro to macro. No cells, no extracellular matrix. But microtubules in cells make the cytoskeletons that give structural support to cells themselves.
No thanks. I know enough vets to not have to ask him.
OK, ask them, though I doubt they are as knowledgeable as Hameroff in the actual chemistry. With all due respect to veterinarians, anesthesia requires veterinary anesthesiologists.

What Does a Veterinary Anesthesiologist Do?
Veterinary anesthesiologists are veterinarians who provide sedation and pain management for animals during surgical procedures and diagnostic tests. Because animals react differently to certain procedures than humans do — in that they may not be very cooperative with diagnostic or therapeutic procedures — anesthesia is administered in a broader range of instances, making an anesthesiologist's job that much more important.
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/veterinary-anesthesiologist-125784
 
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Let me ask a question, for a change.

What is the smallest known (dynamical) biological information processor in animals? Any takers?
 
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Sodium and potassium ions. They process neural impulses.
True the sodium potassium "pump" does have a regulatory function. In that respect they are processors of informaton. They are regulators of the information being processed. While it is called a pump, it has a single purpose of balancing sodium in a cell. It is more like a control mechanism rather than a long distance information transport system.
The sodium potassium pump regulates levels of sodium inside the cell, which can then in turn affect the transport of glucose by sodium-glucose symport proteins.
Yet another single function controller.
NFpqJ2K9QYPqzB0THCbI_Fig-3-7-Sodium-Potassium-Pump.jpg


The sodium potassium pump can bring potassium into the cell and export sodium, lowering intracellular concentrations and making the sodium gradient steeper.
The energy from this gradient is then used to couple the transport of sodium to the import of glucose into the cell against its own concentration gradient.
https://socratic.org/questions/how-does-the-sodium-potassium-pump-work

Steady state (dynamic equilibrum)
You may also have heard the phrase steady state. An organism an be said to be in a steady state, in which case we are using the phrase interchangeably with the term homeostasis. Why not take advantage of the opportunity to be more precise, though?. While homeostasis refers to the entire internal environment, the term steady state can be restricted to describing specific mechanisms. A cell is in homeostasis because every mechanism that keeps it alive is in a steady state.
For example, an enzyme complex called sodium/potassium ATPase (also known as the sodium/potassium pump) uses energy from the hydrolysis of ATP to "trade" sodium ions for potassium ions, thus maintaining a constant internal concentration of potassium. Potassium concentration can be said to be in a steady state. The term dynamic equilibrium is also used synonymously with steady state, but the use of that term can be confusing. A dynamic equilibrium is not the same as a chemical equilibrium.

equilibria.gif

https://www.ruf.rice.edu/~bioslabs/studies/concepts/steadystate.html

They do have an important singular function. But, AFAIK, they work solo and outside of any "pumping" network.
As compared to the microtubule network, the sodium potassium pump is considerably more simple and is more of a process than a processor.

A fatal flaw exists in any argument which proposes that any other control mechanism is capable of governing mitosis, the ultimate information processor and control mechanism.

As compared to ;
and
https://news.berkeley.edu/2014/05/2...-works-could-lead-to-better-anticancer-drugs/

Does this pervasive inter- and intra-cellular neural activity remind of a brain function?

Structures and Functions of Microtubules
Microtubules are filamentous intracellular structures that are responsible for various kinds of movements in all eukaryotic cells. Microtubules are involved in nucleic and cell division, organization of intracellular structure, and intracellular transport, as well as ciliary and flagellar motility. Because the functions of microtubules are so critical to the existence of eukaryotic cells (including our own), it is important that we understand their composition, how they are assembled and disassembled, and how their assembly/disassembly and functions are regulated by cells.
https://www.ruf.rice.edu/~bioslabs/studies/invertebrates/microtubules.html
 
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continued;

Three related micro-polymers assisting in information transport.


and how microtubules self-assemble

and this interesting paper.

Staying on Track: Common Features of DNA Helicases and Microtubule Motors
Linear motor proteins are enzymes that couple energy from nucleoside triphosphate hydrolysis to translocation along a polymer lattice. DNA helicases translocate along a DNA lattice as they unwind duplex DNA to form the single-stranded DNA intermediates required for DNA replication, recombination, and repair. Microtubule motors, such as kinesin, move along linear microtubule polymers in order to transport cargo, such as membrane organelles, within the cell. Although their functions are quite different, recent studies indicate that both classes of motor proteins share a number of mechanistic features.
One important property shared by DNA helicases and conventional kinesin, the founding member of the kinesin superfamily, is the ability to move along their polymer lattice for long distances without dissociating (termed processive movement). A high degree of processivity is crucial for helicases involved in DNA replication, where millions of base pairs (bp) must be replicated quickly.
Processivity also enables small numbers of kinesin motors to transport vesicles efficiently over long distances in nerve axons. In contrast, muscle myosin and axonemal dynein operate in arrays where large numbers of motor proteins generate motion and thus neither require nor display processivity.
gr1.jpg


https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(00)81139-3
 
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An unexpected discovery. Took me completely by surprise.

ANESTHESIA, CONSCIOUSNESS, BOHM AND PENROSE by Stuart Hameroff
David Bohm believed the brain utilized quantum mechanisms, and that conscious thought was distributed and non-local. Roger Penrose has proposed that consciousness involves quantum state reductions linked to an objective threshold intrinsic to spacetime geometry (objective reduction, ‘OR’).
For either, the brain must sustain quantum coherent superpositions long enough for cognitive functions. How can this happen? Perhaps the best approach is to pinpoint the action of anesthetic gases which selectively block consciousness, sparing non-conscious brain activities
Although membrane receptor and ion channel proteins were long thought to mediate anesthesia (and consciousness), evidence now points instead to microtubules inside neurons. Polymers of the protein tubulin, microtubules regulate neuronal synapses and membrane states, and have resonant oscillations in terahertz, gigahertz, megahertz and kilohertz. In Craddock et al (2017), we used computer modeling and quantum chemistry to simulate collective quantum dipole oscillations of pi resonance clouds of all 86 aromatic rings in tubulin.
https://www.fetzer-franklin-fund.org/media/anesthesia-consciousness-bohm-and-penrose-hameroff-video/

And even Sam Harris is interested by the implications of the brain's abilities and functions


and Lawrence Krauss.

 
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"Perhaps the best approach is to pinpoint the action of anesthetic gases which selectively block consciousness, sparing non-conscious brain activities"

The common denominator is that they all affect ion channels. Some spare microtubules.

But when you stub your toe, do you feel pain? That sensory event is transmitted by microtubules to your brain. Microtubules are never just simple bricks. They are dynamic in growth and contraction.
This is crazy! Your arguments are vaguely attached to scientific inference or even logic. Only in these 3 sentences i pointed out the following leaps of logic:
1)The transmission of an impulse is not cognition.
2)The microtubules of the epithelial, muscular, adipose cells, pericytes, endothelial and other cells do not transmit and impulse.
3) Microtubules are a part of the cytoskeleton.
4) The cytoskeleton is a complex organelle with many fuctions that we haven't cleared up 100% yet due to the complexity.
5) Cytoskeleton is composed by various elements and cell types, including the centiole, kinesins, dyneins, etc, etc. Cytoskeleton is a complex intracellular organelle with dynamic and complex functions, but the same thing is true for every other organelle, such as the nucleolus, mitochondria, etc.

Every cell in your body is copied by microtubules every 24 hrs, for your entire life.
Yes but the info for that is already present in the genetic code.
Microtubules are a part of an entire orchestra. They don't divide the cells by themselves.
 
Yes but the info for that is already present in the genetic code.
Microtubules are a part of an entire orchestra. They don't divide the cells by themselves.
They are the mechanism that "reads " the genetic code and copies it, with exquisite fidelity.

Note the stage at which microtubules become the scaffolding for mitosis. @ 6:32

And at 9;00 note the growth of microtubules, the information highways.
 
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Watch the video.Unless you know better that an esteemed anesthesiologist
Andrew Wakefield was probably once deemed an "esteemed" physician..
Unless your brains are in your toes, I'd say it does make a difference. But when you stub your toe, do you feel pain? That sensory event is transmitted by microtubules to your brain.
You do realise that microtubules are not that long, right? Among other reasons for your being wrong.

Principally, your spine says hi by the way.

Microtubules are never just simple bricks. They are dynamic in growth and contraction.
Every cell in your body is copied by microtubules every 24 hrs, for your entire life.
And?
That is ridiculous. The list of microtubule functions alone takes about an entire page.
There are sub-groups of microtubules, each with completely different functions from other sub-groups.
Not really.

I find it takes less space if I don't increase the font to like 50 and bold it each time.

You'd probably find if you do not invent functions for the microtubules and exaggerate, that it would take a lot less room.
Stuart Hameroff is an anesthesiologist and one of the authors of ORCH OR. He does know the exact amount of anesthesia to administer and not kill you. He is the proof that one can be selective in inhibiting conscious microtubule functions witout affecting other brain functions. Do check out his video. Post #1. Its quite interesting. And demonstrable in practice.
What?

When he puts a patient under, he's not calculating how much to give him based on his microtubules. For goodness sakes!

Your exaggeration is becoming embarrassing and extreme.
 
Andrew Wakefield was probably once deemed an "esteemed" physician..
And? Do you realize by dismissing ORCH OR you are not talking about a scientist gone haywire, but in one fell swoop you have declared hundreds of dedicated scientists to be unfit to shine your boots. Talking about premature exaggeration?
You do realise that microtubules are not that long, right? Among other reasons for your being wrong.
Did I say "single microtubules"? Where? You do realize that axons can grow up a meter, and then network with other axons.

Are Microtubules the Brain of the Neuron
Axons can have as many as 100 bundles of microtubules in one axon cross section. There are many variations in these lattices with different types of stabilizing molecules, different orientations, and many different associated molecules and co factors.
http://jonlieffmd.com/blog/are-microtubules-the-brain-of-the-neuron

axon-.jpg


Principally, your spine says hi by the way.
probably could not do it without the microtubules inside the axons.
Length regulation
Axons vary largely in length from a few micrometers up to meters in some animals.
This emphasizes that there must be a cellular length regulation mechanism allowing the neurons both to sense the length of their axons and to control their growth accordingly. It was discovered that motor proteins play an important role in regulating the length of axons.[39] Based on this observation, researchers developed an explicit model for axonal growth describing how motor proteins could affect the axon length on the molecular level.[40][41][42][43] These studies suggest that motor proteins carry signaling molecules from the soma to the growth cone and vice versa whose concentration oscillates in time with a length-dependent frequency.
Axon terminals
An axon can divide into many branches called telodendria (Greek–end of tree). At the end of each telodendron is an axon terminal (also called a synaptic bouton, or terminal bouton). Axon terminals contain synaptic vesicles that store the neurotransmitter for release at the synapse. This makes multiple synaptic connections with other neurons possible. Sometimes the axon of a neuron may synapse onto dendrites of the same neuron, when it is known as an autapse.
neuron_structure1.jpg

Microtubule-delivered mitochondria
Following a thin trail of clues, the researchers decided to look at the dynamics of microtubules. These tiny railway-like tracks are laid down within axons for the efficient transport of molecular cargoes and are altered and extended during axonal branching
kinesin-walking-on-microtubule.png
Illustration of a kinesin protein walking on a microtubule, transporting its cargo (credit: The Inner Life of a Cell by Cellular Visions and Harvard)
MT are not just bricks in the cytoskeleton.
Not really
Yes really.
I find it takes less space if I don't increase the font to like 50 and bold it each time.
I found that quoted passages get really small and hard to read.
You'd probably find if you do not invent functions for the microtubules and exaggerate, that it would take a lot less room.
Restrictions restrictions.
Sorry, it does take a lot of room to extol all the virtues of microtubules. (20 pages!) That was my point.....:)
What "what"?
When he puts a patient under, he's not calculating how much to give him based on his microtubules. For goodness sakes!
No he goes by size and weight of the patient. It is the microtubules that are rendered unconscious (inoperative). And then only some of the brain microtubules.
Stages
There are 4 stages of anesthesia, listed below:
  1. Induction – The initial stages when the patient gradually begins to lose consciousness.
  2. Excitement – Complete loss of consciousness that may be coupled with an irregular heart rate.
  3. Surgical Anesthesia – Eye movement completely stops and the muscles relax.
  4. Overdose – This occurs when the patient receives too much anesthesia. It can be fatal if not corrected quickly.
  1. It takes a skilled anesthesiologist to find the right balance of anesthesia for each patient without pushing him or her into the overdose stage. During your pre-surgical consultation talk with your doctor about who will be performing the anesthesia.
    Your exaggeration is becoming embarrassing and extreme.
    And you are becoming hysterical. You're still pursuing the wrong approach to earning my respect. You're becoming a predator.
 
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And? Do you realize by dismissing ORCH OR you are not talking about a scientist gone haywire, but in one fell swoop you have declared hundreds of dedicated scientists to be unfit to shine your boots.

There are not hundreds of scientists that support Orch-R. There are two, plus maybe a small handful of supporters.

To reiterate, there is no evidence that microtubules are tiny quantum computers.

The notion is mere speculation. The Orch-R concept of Penrose and Hameroff has made a number of false predictions and is fairly thoroughly discredited. I quote from the Wiki article on "Quantum Mind":

" Hameroff provided a hypothesis that microtubules would be suitable hosts for quantum behavior.[20] Microtubules are composed of tubulin protein dimersubunits. The dimers each have hydrophobic pockets that are 8 nm apart and that may contain delocalized pi electrons. Tubulins have other smaller non-polar regions that contain pi electron-rich indole rings separated by only about 2 nm. Hameroff proposed that these electrons are close enough to become entangled.[21] Hameroff originally suggested the tubulin-subunit electrons would form a Bose–Einstein condensate, but this was discredited.[22] He then proposed a Frohlich condensate, a hypothetical coherent oscillation of dipolar molecules. However, this too was experimentally discredited.[23]

However, Orch-OR made numerous false biological predictions, and is not an accepted model of brain physiology.[24] In other words, there is a missing link between physics and neuroscience,[25] for instance, the proposed predominance of 'A' lattice microtubules, more suitable for information processing, wasfalsified by Kikkawa et al.,[26][27] who showed all in vivo microtubules have a 'B' lattice and a seam. The proposed existence of gap junctions between neurons and glial cells was also falsified.[28] Orch-OR predicted that microtubule coherence reaches the synapses via dendritic lamellar bodies (DLBs), however De Zeeuw et al. proved this impossible,[29] by showing that DLBs are located micrometers away from gap junctions.[30]

In January 2014, Hameroff and Penrose claimed that the discovery of quantum vibrations in microtubules by Anirban Bandyopadhyay of the National Institute for Materials Science in Japan in March 2013[31] corroborates the Orch-OR theory.[15][32]

Although these theories are stated in a scientific framework, it is difficult to separate them from the personal opinions of the scientist. The opinions are often based on intuition or subjective ideas about the nature of consciousness."

It's not doing very well. It seems more than likely it will swirl down the toilet of history when these two old men die.
 
There are not hundreds of scientists that support Orch-R. There are two, plus maybe a small handful of supporters.
Yes, but there are hundreds of scientist studying microtubules.
In January 2014, Hameroff and Penrose claimed that the discovery of quantum vibrations in microtubules by Anirban Bandyopadhyay of the National Institute for Materials Science in Japan in March 2013[31] corroborates the Orch-OR theory.[15][32]
Persistence does pay off sometimes.
Although these theories are stated in a scientific framework, it is difficult to separate them from the personal opinions of the scientist. The opinions are often based on intuition or subjective ideas about the nature of consciousness."
It has been an area of interest for a long long time, no? Hundreds of scientist are still trying to make a case for an "emergent" consciousness from complex "neural systems"
It's not doing very well. It seems more than likely it will swirl down the toilet of history when these two old men die.
Maybe, but that still remains to be seen.

And history has proved many critics of new science wrong also. Time, as usual will be the judge. As long as nothing has been ruled out definitively, I'll continue monitoring for any progress.......:)
 
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continuing our search.

Mystery solved about the machines that move your genes
Fleets of microscopic machines toil away in your cells, carrying out critical biological tasks and keeping you alive. By combining theory and experiment, researchers have discovered the surprising way one of these machines, called the spindle, avoids slowdowns: congestion.
The spindle divides chromosomes in half during cell division, ensuring that both offspring cells contain a full set of genetic material. The spindle is made up of tens of thousands of stiff, hollow tubes called microtubules connected by biological motors.
..........
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/09/190902113627.htm

and

Molecular motor
This article is about biological molecular motors. For man-made molecular motors, see Synthetic molecular motor.
Molecular motors are natural (biological) or artificial molecular machines that are the essential agents of movement in living organisms. In general terms, a motor is a device that consumes energy in one form and converts it into motion or mechanical work; for example, many protein-based molecular motors harness the chemical free energy released by the hydrolysis of ATP in order to perform mechanical work.[1]
In terms of energetic efficiency, this type of motor can be superior to currently available man-made motors. One important difference between molecular motors and macroscopic motors is that molecular motors operate in the thermal bath, an environment in which the fluctuations due to

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_motor


350px-Many_Wire_Coordinated_Motion.gif
Metallic microrods (4.3 µm long x 300 nm diameter) can be propelled autonomously in fluids or inside living cells, without chemical fuel, by resonant ultrasound. These rods contain a central Ni stripe that can be steered by an external magnetic field, resulting in "synchronized swimming."[17]
Carbon nanotubes
Carbon nanotubes can exhibit remarkable electrical conductivity.[7][8] They also have exceptional tensile strength[9] and thermal conductivity,[10][11] because of their nanostructure and strength of the bonds between carbon atoms.
In addition, they can be chemically modified.[12] These properties are expected to be valuable in many areas of technology, such as electronics, optics, composite materials (replacing or complementing carbon fibers), nanotechnology, and other applications of materials science.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_nanotube
 
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